pellinore Posted March 20 #1 Share Posted March 20 This seems inconvertible: 1 6 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted March 20 #2 Share Posted March 20 Seems very 'convertible' (controvertible) to me. How do you know what she's saying is true? 8 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted March 20 #3 Share Posted March 20 (edited) 18 minutes ago, pellinore said: This seems inconvertible: No, it isn’t evidence of Gods power. It’s evidence of a claim a person is making. She claims she lost three toes in an accident, and that after women prayed for her, the toes began to grow back. If the doctor who treated her for the injury that caused her to lose her toes, could present the evidence from her file, showing that she had lost three toes, and he could re-examine the foot that now has new toes, then yes, this would be evidence of some kind of miracle. Until then, we don’t know if she’s just telling stories for Jesus. PS. Edit. Her toes were actually amputated….so yes, there would be medical records for that. Edited March 20 by Guyver 6 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted March 20 #4 Share Posted March 20 (edited) It’s interesting that the thread title asks, “Is this evidence of Gods power” but the header on the video says, “Atheists, if Jesus isn’t real, then please explain this.” So, isn’t this equating Jesus with God? Yes, I am aware that Trinitarians believe Jesus is God, or the Second Person of the Trinity…..yet…..half the Bible was written before Jesus was ever born, and God did healings before Jesus. So, even if a miracle were to occur, how would we know it was Jesus doing it? Edited March 20 by Guyver Auto Correct error 1 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waspie_Dwarf Posted March 20 #5 Share Posted March 20 (IP: Staff) · A person making unsubstantiated claims on twitter is not evidence of anything apart from the fact that there are people gullible enough to believe unsubstantiated claims on twitter. 2 6 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted March 20 #6 Share Posted March 20 She could have at least slipped off her shoes and shown the new toes on the video. I mean really, why not? If I were missing toes and they grew back, I’d be gladly taking off my shoes to show the world my feet! 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted March 20 #7 Share Posted March 20 While, within the doctrine of faith, proof denies faith in reality Jesus DID do miracles in order to prove that he was the fulfilment of prophesy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ell Posted March 20 #8 Share Posted March 20 I have had 'miracles' happen to me. It usually sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted March 23 #9 Share Posted March 23 All I see is a growing nose. 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted March 23 #10 Share Posted March 23 Do talking monkeys that split atoms and fly to the moon really exist? Seems kinda far-fetched to me. 1 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pellinore Posted March 23 Author #11 Share Posted March 23 On 3/20/2023 at 8:07 PM, Liquid Gardens said: Seems very 'convertible' (controvertible) to me. How do you know what she's saying is true? She's a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted March 23 #12 Share Posted March 23 (edited) On 3/20/2023 at 12:56 PM, pellinore said: This seems inconvertible: People lie, and toes do not grow back. It is bs similar to those of the Benny Hinn ilk. Edited March 23 by Sherapy 3 1 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted March 23 #13 Share Posted March 23 When I was young, in the 80's, I worked in sawmills, where people have nicknames like "Lefty." In 15 years, I saw some nasty amputations on the job. Very good men, family men, Christians for the most part. For them, months of pain and the inability to work, and a permanent handicap. If God were into helping deserving people, he could have had a multitude to select from that needed assistance. It seems as much an indication of capriciousness as power to grow somebody's toes back when other people's families suffer from lack of income during recovery. Which brings me to my quandary. If the Lord moves in such mysterious ways, why would I ever count on him when I needed help? 1 3 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ell Posted March 23 #14 Share Posted March 23 26 minutes ago, Tatetopa said: If God were into helping deserving people, he could have had a multitude to select from that needed assistance. ... If the Lord moves in such mysterious ways, why would I ever count on him when I needed help? You erroneously attribute human qualities to the Divine. Then there also is the Prime Directive: The Divine cannot of its own volition - it is unlikely that the Divine has volition, though - interfere in the events in our universe, as that would interfere with free will. It can only do so - if at all possible - when invited to do so. 1 3 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted March 23 #15 Share Posted March 23 4 minutes ago, Ell said: You erroneously attribute human qualities to the Divine. Then there also is the Prime Directive: The Divine cannot of its own volition - it is unlikely that the Divine has volition, though - interfere in the events in our universe, as that would interfere with free will. It can only do so - if at all possible - when invited to do so. How would you know? 2 4 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted March 23 #16 Share Posted March 23 26 minutes ago, Ell said: interfere in the events in our universe, as that would interfere with free will. Even if your prime directive were accurate, the above doesn't follow. The divine could interfere in countless ways as there are countless things that are totally unaffected by our free will. Eliminating tornadoes, removing the possibility of deadly childhood diseases, etc, would not interfere with our free will, those things are already not products of our choices. 2 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ell Posted March 23 #17 Share Posted March 23 17 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: Even if your prime directive were accurate, the above doesn't follow. The divine could interfere in countless ways as there are countless things that are totally unaffected by our free will. Eliminating tornadoes, removing the possibility of deadly childhood diseases, etc, would not interfere with our free will, those things are already not products of our choices. How do you know that 'those things are already not products of our choices' whether made in the past or in the future or in the now? 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted March 23 #18 Share Posted March 23 5 minutes ago, Ell said: How do you know that 'those things are already not products of our choices' whether made in the past or in the future or in the now? Because natural disasters, diseases, etc. occurred well before the origin of humans. cormac 6 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ell Posted March 23 #19 Share Posted March 23 9 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said: Because natural disasters, diseases, etc. occurred well before the origin of humans. So? 3 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted March 23 #20 Share Posted March 23 21 minutes ago, Ell said: How do you know that 'those things are already not products of our choices' whether made in the past or in the future or in the now? Never mind him, how do you know the things you claim you know? Do you hear voices in your head. Does the "Divine" talk to you, reveal to you, are you his "Chosen One?" If so, get in line; the markee is crowded on UM. 3 1 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted March 23 #21 Share Posted March 23 4 minutes ago, Ell said: So? So we had no choice in their existence. That should have been obvious. cormac 4 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ell Posted March 23 #22 Share Posted March 23 1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said: So we had no choice in their existence. That should have been obvious. It isn't obvious to me. Maybe onehundredtwenty billion years from now in a dry dry universe an odd being desired a drop of rain and in response the Divine retroactively twenty billion years ago introduced a universal law of physics that enabled hurricanes to arise. 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted March 23 #23 Share Posted March 23 8 minutes ago, Ell said: It isn't obvious to me. Maybe onehundredtwenty billion years from now in a dry dry universe an odd being desired a drop of rain and in response the Divine retroactively twenty billion years ago introduced a universal law of physics that enabled hurricanes to arise. Maybe you're just talking out your backside. 3 2 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted March 23 #24 Share Posted March 23 44 minutes ago, Ell said: You erroneously attribute human qualities to the Divine. Thanks. I am examining a logical course of action, is there any point in considering or depending on God to influence life outcomes? Predictability is not limited to human action. I can depend on sunrise, the seasons, the tides, the growth of seeds and the behavior of the elements that make up our world. I can make decisions and integrate my actions based on my understanding of these components that make up human experience. Of course, the argument can be made that it is really the fault of the guy that lost all of his fingers due to a choice he made in the past present or future. If he does not know when or what choice he made, it does him little good to be told it is cause and effect. I can't refute the statement as I do think personal responsibility is at play, and I know some people use their free will to make dumb decisions that lead to injury and death. If God sometimes helps and sometimes not then there is no justification for me to predict God's actions. I have to design my life without consideration for what God might do. That does not prove or disprove the existence of God, just that God seems unreliable as a source of aid. Maybe Loki or Native American Coyote are good models for God behavior. 2 3 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted March 23 #25 Share Posted March 23 14 minutes ago, Ell said: Maybe onehundredtwenty billion years from now in a dry dry universe an odd being desired a drop of rain and in response the Divine retroactively twenty billion years ago introduced a universal law of physics that enabled hurricanes to arise. We weren't talking about 'odd beings', we are talking about our free will. What part of your free will is interfered with if today the Divine eliminated the possibility of tornadoes, you would no longer have the ability to will what exactly? Nothing of course, since you no more have the ability to conjure, affect, or eliminate tornadoes using your own free will than you do to fly around like Superman. Nobody says though that the inability to fly like Superman is interfering with our free will, free will doesn't require that we be able to do anything we want despite the limits of our capabilities. 2 3 Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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