The Rise of Gender-Neutral Names Isn’t What It Seems

[Grim Reaper 6]

Quote

Baby names just aren’t what they used to be. You can see it these days in all the little Blakes and Emersons and Phoenixes and Robins—and if you can’t immediately tell whether I’m talking about boy or girl names, then ah, yes, that’s exactly it. When it comes to baby naming, we’re at peak androgyny. The rise of gender-neutral names has been particularly notable in the past few years, but the shift has been a long time coming, according to Philip Cohen, a sociologist at the University of Maryland at College Park. In 2021, 6 percent of American babies were bestowed androgynous names, approximately five times the number in the 1880s.

This is a small minority of babies born every year—obviously boy names such as Liam and obviously girl names such as Olivia still top the charts—but “anything that has changed by a factor of five in our culture is a big deal,” says Laura Wattenberg, the author of The Baby Name Wizard. The jump is big enough to make you wonder what’s going on: Could it be, as some headlines have proclaimed, that baby-name trends herald a postgender world?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-rise-of-gender-neutral-names-isn-t-what-it-seems/ar-AA18UzgK?cvid=c3789fd184c341bab0166f7a0823d122&ei=24

[+and-then]

1 minute ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

The jump is big enough to make you wonder what’s going on

For some, maybe.  For most rational human beings, this is just a bizarre expression of a kind of mass hysteria.  To believe otherwise is to imagine that all of human civilization, history, and culture have been in error and only NOW do we see the "truth".  

I'll retire to Bedlam... 

[HSlim]

9 minutes ago, and-then said:

For some, maybe.  For most rational human beings, this is just a bizarre expression of a kind of mass hysteria.  To believe otherwise is to imagine that all of human civilization, history, and culture have been in error and only NOW do we see the "truth".  

I'll retire to Bedlam... 

I'm assuming you consider yourself "rational?"

Edited March 21, 2023 by HSlim

[Golden Duck]

Gender ambiguous names is totally a Millenial thing.

It wouldn't happen in my day.

[SecretSanta]

1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

Gender ambiguous names is totally a Millenial thing.

It wouldn't happen in my day.

Not in my day either

[spartan max2]

Ah great. A new thing for boomers to panic about: gender neutral name 

Truly it is the end times 

Edited March 21, 2023 by spartan max2

[HSlim]

Apparently not in his either

 

[HSlim]

Just now, spartan max2 said:

Ah great. A new thing for boomers to panic a out: gender neutral name 

Truly it is the end times 

Well I guess they can only be upset about M&Ms for so long?

[HSlim]

Or his

[HandsomeGorilla]

4 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Ah great. A new thing for boomers to panic about: gender neutral name 

Truly it is the end times 

I'm even seeing Satanic panic coming back lmao It's a rotation of grievances they work through in lieu of actually ****ing doing anything.

The obsession with LGBTQ remains a constant, however. And making sure women know their place.

Edited March 21, 2023 by HandsomeGorilla

[spartan max2]

1 minute ago, HSlim said:

Well I guess they can only be upset about M&Ms for so long?

Wait tell they hear about how teens are choosing their own names.

The audacity of the youth these days lol

[HSlim]

Just now, spartan max2 said:

Wait tell they hear about how teens are choosing their own names.

The audacity of the youth these days lol

Oh the horror! 

[HSlim]

1 minute ago, HandsomeGorilla said:

I'm even seeing Satanic panic coming back lmao It's a rotation of grievances they work through in lieu of actually ****ing doing anything.

The obsession with LGBTQ remains a constant, however. 

The fascination is interesting, isn't it?

[HSlim]

5 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Wait tell they hear about how teens are choosing their own names.

The audacity of the youth these days lol

I hear boys are even wearing makeup now. Never ever before in history until those damn millennials and their LGBT agenda...

Edited March 21, 2023 by HSlim

[spartan max2]

5 minutes ago, HandsomeGorilla said:

I'm even seeing Satanic panic coming back lmao It's a rotation of grievances they work through in lieu of actually ****ing doing anything.

The obsession with LGBTQ remains a constant, however. And making sure women know their place.

I've compared the current fever to the satanic panic many times.

History dosen't repeat but it sure rhymes 

[HSlim]

3 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I've compared the current fever to the satanic panic many times.

History dosen't repeat but it sure rhymes 

If only they could find a way to make christianity seem less abhorrent....

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by HSlim

[darkmoonlady]

Bigotry always seems to be born out of two things. Power and ignorance, usually that ignorance includes a lack of historical knowledge. 

Trans people have existed as long as human culture has existed, all around the world. It isn't new, and it isn't a fad or a passing thing. Cultural gender norms vary over time widely and culture to culture. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cpg4ti0gD7G/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Names have varied over time as well. There are a ton of gender neutral names already standard out there, Chris, Leslie, Jaime, etc. It just irks the bigots who decided to ignore history in favor of believing it's new and therefore wrong. 

[+Link of Hyrule]

28 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

Bigotry always seems to be born out of two things. Power and ignorance, usually that ignorance includes a lack of historical knowledge. 

Trans people have existed as long as human culture has existed, all around the world. It isn't new, and it isn't a fad or a passing thing. Cultural gender norms vary over time widely and culture to culture. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cpg4ti0gD7G/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Names have varied over time as well. There are a ton of gender neutral names already standard out there, Chris, Leslie, Jaime, etc. It just irks the bigots who decided to ignore history in favor of believing it's new and therefore wrong. 

Could the person who created that video provide a source list for their claims? Many of the examples they provide come from a time before written records, certainly before the time writing was common. I would very much like to see what these ancient sources are, or if it's just an interpretation of art or a modern retcon. The biggest example I can provide, and the video falls into the trap which makes me suspect the entire source list - is the Native American "Two Spirit" - this term was not even coined until 1990, and the vast majority of Native American ancient history is passed down orally, which puts the entire list into doubt. Activists are trying to insert trans people into history, in places and times where it simply didn't happen! 

I also decided to try looking up the only piece of verifiable data - the translation of "sekhet" as a third gender in Ancient Egypt. Isn't it weird that the only websites I found relating sekhet to a third gender are pro-trans websites? I couldn't find a single source from an Ancient Historian who argued that "sekhet" is best understood to be a reference to an unknown third gender. 

I know you didn't create the video, just shared it, so I'm not going to ask you for the source list. But without a source list, this video won't convince anyone. 

[darkmoonlady]

26 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

Could the person who created that video provide a source list for their claims? Many of the examples they provide come from a time before written records, certainly before the time writing was common. I would very much like to see what these ancient sources are, or if it's just an interpretation of art or a modern retcon. The biggest example I can provide, and the video falls into the trap which makes me suspect the entire source list - is the Native American "Two Spirit" - this term was not even coined until 1990, and the vast majority of Native American ancient history is passed down orally, which puts the entire list into doubt. Activists are trying to insert trans people into history, in places and times where it simply didn't happen! 

I also decided to try looking up the only piece of verifiable data - the translation of "sekhet" as a third gender in Ancient Egypt. Isn't it weird that the only websites I found relating sekhet to a third gender are pro-trans websites? I couldn't find a single source from an Ancient Historian who argued that "sekhet" is best understood to be a reference to an unknown third gender. 

I know you didn't create the video, just shared it, so I'm not going to ask you for the source list. But without a source list, this video won't convince anyone. 

National Geographic

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/how-historians-are-documenting-lives-of-transgender-people

https://www.yesmagazine.org/social-justice/2021/06/07/trans-history-gender-diversity

I found numerous peer reviewed articles available from University presses and Journals regarding a third sex in ancient Egypt by a number of accredited PHD level scholars, so not sure why you dismiss it. Two Spirit is not from the 1990s it was an established term with Navajo peoples well before the colonial era and not sure if you know this but oral tradition is valid. Multiple First Nation tribes had various forms of gender and they weren't all the same. Its comments like this that want to suspect the history before actually reading the well documented and easily accessible information available because well gee how could it be true if you hadn't heard of it before?? It only proves that white, heteronormative history is the default and anything outside of it is generally ignored or disregarded. Same goes for black history as we are seeing in Florida. Take for example that the majority of early gynecological knowledge is based on a single, white male doctor who gained most of his "knowledge" from forced pelvic exams and tortured tests on black slave women. They tend to leave that out of modern medical books. History isn't just about straight European males. 

[+Link of Hyrule]

2 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

National Geographic

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/how-historians-are-documenting-lives-of-transgender-people

https://www.yesmagazine.org/social-justice/2021/06/07/trans-history-gender-diversity

I found numerous peer reviewed articles available from University presses and Journals regarding a third sex in ancient Egypt by a number of accredited PHD level scholars, so not sure why you dismiss it. Two Spirit is not from the 1990s it was an established term with Navajo peoples well before the colonial era and not sure if you know this but oral tradition is valid. Multiple First Nation tribes had various forms of gender and they weren't all the same. Its comments like this that want to suspect the history before actually reading the well documented and easily accessible information available because well gee how could it be true if you hadn't heard of it before?? It only proves that white, heteronormative history is the default and anything outside of it is generally ignored or disregarded. Same goes for black history as we are seeing in Florida. Take for example that the majority of early gynecological knowledge is based on a single, white male doctor who gained most of his "knowledge" from forced pelvic exams and tortured tests on black slave women. They tend to leave that out of modern medical books. History isn't just about straight European males. 

Wikipedia is normally pretty left wing about this sort of thing, but even they have it written in basically the opening introduction to their article: 

Quote

The term Two Spirit (original form chosen) was created in 1990 at the Indigenous lesbian and gay international gathering in Winnipeg, and "specifically chosen to distinguish and distance Native American/First Nations people from non-Native peoples".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit

Literally the only articles I see pushing the "two spirit" narrative, are pro-trans websites using this as evidence of transgenderism in ancient societies. The same for every other claim (if you have peer reviewed sources that demonstrate sekhet as a third gender, please share - I couldn't find anything except sources that exist explicitly to prove transgenderism).

The activists are rewriting history for these articles. The real historians aren't saying any of this. 

[darkmoonlady]

44 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

Wikipedia is normally pretty left wing about this sort of thing, but even they have it written in basically the opening introduction to their article: 

Literally the only articles I see pushing the "two spirit" narrative, are pro-trans websites using this as evidence of transgenderism in ancient societies. The same for every other claim (if you have peer reviewed sources that demonstrate sekhet as a third gender, please share - I couldn't find anything except sources that exist explicitly to prove transgenderism).

The activists are rewriting history for these articles. The real historians aren't saying any of this. 

How would you know "real" historians?? My graduate degree is in History. You've shown you grasp how to use the internet, your incredulity isn't coming from a place of ignorance so much as willful ignorance which isn't up to me fix or prove. I imagine if I invented a time machine and brought back a transgender person you'd come up with some excuse for your own edification, to ignore, dismiss and pretend they didn't exist. The issue isn't the historical evidence, of which there are virtual libraries of proof, its that for someone like you with inherent bias aka personal bigotry for trans folks, nothing is ever good enough. Same as people on the right, it's not about assuaging white straight guilt, its erasing and ignoring that which you do not want to accept because you just don't like what is different than you. Don't get me started on disabled history (I'm disabled), or marginalized groups ignored by the standard European, male centric, able centric systems. 

[Arbenol]

4 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

Could the person who created that video provide a source list for their claims? Many of the examples they provide come from a time before written records, certainly before the time writing was common. I would very much like to see what these ancient sources are, or if it's just an interpretation of art or a modern retcon. The biggest example I can provide, and the video falls into the trap which makes me suspect the entire source list - is the Native American "Two Spirit" - this term was not even coined until 1990, and the vast majority of Native American ancient history is passed down orally, which puts the entire list into doubt. Activists are trying to insert trans people into history, in places and times where it simply didn't happen! 

I also decided to try looking up the only piece of verifiable data - the translation of "sekhet" as a third gender in Ancient Egypt. Isn't it weird that the only websites I found relating sekhet to a third gender are pro-trans websites? I couldn't find a single source from an Ancient Historian who argued that "sekhet" is best understood to be a reference to an unknown third gender. 

I know you didn't create the video, just shared it, so I'm not going to ask you for the source list. But without a source list, this video won't convince anyone. 

Do you reject the idea that third gender, or gender fluid people have existed in several indigenous populations throughout history? 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Arbenol

[+Link of Hyrule]

5 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

How would you know "real" historians?? My graduate degree is in History. You've shown you grasp how to use the internet, your incredulity isn't coming from a place of ignorance so much as willful ignorance which isn't up to me fix or prove.

Great,  you've got experience in the field.  You are better than most to ask for a citation from one of these historians writing in a peer record journal about sekhet in Ancient Egypt, or about the Native Two Spirit. 

I listen to podcasts or novels on my way to/ from work,  I'm coming to the end of a series,  I can convert the research paper into audio and listen to it over the next few weeks. Ancient history is an interest of mine,  Egypt has always fascinated me, and I really would like to know the primary sources historians use for Two Spirit in Native American history. 

Naturally you're not obliged to provide sources, however I find it strange that you are so reluctant to do so.  

 

5 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

I imagine if I invented a time machine and brought back a transgender person you'd come up with some excuse for your own edification, to ignore, dismiss and pretend they didn't exist.

I'm not saying they don't exist! I'm questioning the validity of the sources being used to present transgenderism as something that was celebrated in all these cultures! 

You're an historian, surely you see the value in a primary source,  instead of all these tabloid articles that never cite their sources?

 

5 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

The issue isn't the historical evidence, of which there are virtual libraries of proof, its that for someone like you with inherent bias aka personal bigotry for trans folks,

Having different values is not bigotry! "I disagree" and "I hate" are worlds apart, and I suspect you are treating them the same and assigning bigotry where none exists. 

You won't find a single post of mine where I deny the reality of transgender people,  or deny the rights of all people to express themselves in the way they want,  without fear of persecution,  and for the rights of every adult to undertake whatever surgery they wish.

But i also want surgery and chemical castration to be off the table for children under 18, and I don't accept that as bigotry!

 

5 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

nothing is ever good enough. Same as people on the right, it's not about assuaging white straight guilt, its erasing and ignoring that which you do not want to accept because you just don't like what is different than you. Don't get me started on disabled history (I'm disabled), or marginalized groups ignored by the standard European, male centric, able centric systems. 

I don't believe I mentioned disabled history. 

I won't argue identity politics with someone who has already judged me based on my sex and skin colour! 

[+Link of Hyrule]

5 hours ago, Arbenol said:

Do you reject the idea that third gender, or gender fluid people have existed in several indigenous populations throughout history? 

Not at all. I'm asking for evidence of specific claims about how specific indigenous societies allegedly elevated such individuals to positions of esteem. 

[darkmoonlady]

1 hour ago, Paranoid Android said:

Great,  you've got experience in the field.  You are better than most to ask for a citation from one of these historians writing in a peer record journal about sekhet in Ancient Egypt, or about the Native Two Spirit. 

I listen to podcasts or novels on my way to/ from work,  I'm coming to the end of a series,  I can convert the research paper into audio and listen to it over the next few weeks. Ancient history is an interest of mine,  Egypt has always fascinated me, and I really would like to know the primary sources historians use for Two Spirit in Native American history. 

Naturally you're not obliged to provide sources, however I find it strange that you are so reluctant to do so.  

 

I'm not saying they don't exist! I'm questioning the validity of the sources being used to present transgenderism as something that was celebrated in all these cultures! 

You're an historian, surely you see the value in a primary source,  instead of all these tabloid articles that never cite their sources?

 

Having different values is not bigotry! "I disagree" and "I hate" are worlds apart, and I suspect you are treating them the same and assigning bigotry where none exists. 

You won't find a single post of mine where I deny the reality of transgender people,  or deny the rights of all people to express themselves in the way they want,  without fear of persecution,  and for the rights of every adult to undertake whatever surgery they wish.

But i also want surgery and chemical castration to be off the table for children under 18, and I don't accept that as bigotry!

 

I don't believe I mentioned disabled history. 

I won't argue identity politics with someone who has already judged me based on my sex and skin colour! 

No what you've demonstrated with your comments thus far is you know where to find the same evidence and citations I found, you just would rather I do the work for you. And if I did the work for you, my gut tells me you'd dismiss it and find excuses as to why in your opinion they'd be unacceptable. You know how to use google, you can find jstor, .education links with all the info I mention by typing it into a search engine. I'm not reluctant to prove something you've already said you don't believe.