Pentagon will expedite delivery of tanks, Patriot systems to Ukraine

[Grim Reaper 6]

Quote

The Pentagon is on track to send Abram tanks and Patriot missile defense systems to Ukraine faster than originally planned, the Defense Department’s top spokesman said Tuesday. The department will send a refurbished older model of Abrams tanks to Ukraine to speed up its delivery of the weapon to the embattled country, press secretary Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder told reporters. The option will get the M1A1 Abrams to Ukraine by this fall versus the more than a year it would have taken to build and ship 31 of the newer M1A2 version of the tanks — the original plan. The decision, made in coordination with Ukraine, will “enable us to significantly expedite delivery timelines,” Ryder said, noting that “this is about getting this important combat capability into the hands of the Ukrainians sooner rather than later.” 

The M1A1 can be taken from Army stocks and will be easier for Ukrainian forces to learn to use and maintain compared to the M1A2 — a vehicle that is considered more lethal and runs on a digital system. In addition, Pentagon officials are “confident that we’ll be able to get the Patriots [to Ukraine] on a expedited timeline.” 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pentagon-will-expedite-delivery-of-tanks-patriot-systems-to-ukraine/ar-AA18UyRV?cvid=4b257005ee494b2fa80415a1fa620d44&ei=34

[+and-then]

That timeline for the earlier generation of Abrams makes sense but having the Patriots arrive sooner means they'll have to be manned by trained personnel other than Ukrainians.  You know, like that USAF pilot who says he'll be happy to fly the F-16s?    That just shows how the lines are being blurred.  If the US is paying contractors to man and operate these US-supplied systems, how is that NOT the US being a combatant?

[DarkHunter]

Just now, and-then said:

That timeline for the earlier generation of Abrams makes sense but having the Patriots arrive sooner means they'll have to be manned by trained personnel other than Ukrainians.  You know, like that USAF pilot who says he'll be happy to fly the F-16s?    That just shows how the lines are being blurred.  If the US is paying contractors to man and operate these US-supplied systems, how is that NOT the US being a combatant?

How many times does it need to be pointed out to you that the training time on the patriot missile system is 10 weeks of basic training and 13 weeks of advanced individual training.  Essentially it takes a little under 6 months to train a crew to operate the patriot missile system.

Ukranian troops arrived in America around mid January to begin training on the patriot missile system.  So by mid to end of July the Ukranian troops will have finished their training on the patriot missile system.  

I feel like you will ignore all of that so you can keep pushing this idea that American combat troops will be in Ukraine.

[+and-then]

21 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

I feel like you will ignore all of that so you can keep pushing this idea that American combat troops will be in Ukraine.

I state my opinions based on my sources of information.  You are firmly on record telling me I'm wrong.  I do not accept your judgment on this issue.  Why does the opinion of one old man bother you so much?  The reality, IMO, is that NO ONE really knows what the tactical or strategic situation is there, they are simply pushing their perspectives.  Patriot systems - as I'm SURE you know - are quite extensive and are composed of multiple types of MOSs.  They are not designed like some plug and play software.  On top of that, the number of units that have been promised could be used to protect a top-security priority but not an actual city-sized area.  IOW, they won't play any significant role there.  

It remains to be seen whether NATO will step in to save Ukraine's ass if Russia begins moving west, en masse.  I am NOT claiming that WILL HAPPEN, so don't bother to misconstrue my words.  I'm simply saying that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Biden's handlers decided to roll those dice rather than allow a situation where Putin is seen to be winning against NATO.  On this issue...

[Trelane]

1 hour ago, and-then said:

I state my opinions based on my sources of information.  You are firmly on record telling me I'm wrong.  I do not accept your judgment on this issue.  Why does the opinion of one old man bother you so much?  The reality, IMO, is that NO ONE really knows what the tactical or strategic situation is there, they are simply pushing their perspectives.  Patriot systems - as I'm SURE you know - are quite extensive and are composed of multiple types of MOSs.  They are not designed like some plug and play software.  On top of that, the number of units that have been promised could be used to protect a top-security priority but not an actual city-sized area.  IOW, they won't play any significant role there.  

It remains to be seen whether NATO will step in to save Ukraine's ass if Russia begins moving west, en masse.  I am NOT claiming that WILL HAPPEN, so don't bother to misconstrue my words.  I'm simply saying that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Biden's handlers decided to roll those dice rather than allow a situation where Putin is seen to be winning against NATO.  On this issue...

What are your sources of information then?

[DarkHunter]

12 minutes ago, and-then said:

I state my opinions based on my sources of information.  You are firmly on record telling me I'm wrong.  I do not accept your judgment on this issue.  Why does the opinion of one old man bother you so much?  The reality, IMO, is that NO ONE really knows what the tactical or strategic situation is there, they are simply pushing their perspectives.  Patriot systems - as I'm SURE you know - are quite extensive and are composed of multiple types of MOSs.  They are not designed like some plug and play software.  On top of that, the number of units that have been promised could be used to protect a top-security priority but not an actual city-sized area.  IOW, they won't play any significant role there.  

It remains to be seen whether NATO will step in to save Ukraine's ass if Russia begins moving west, en masse.  I am NOT claiming that WILL HAPPEN, so don't bother to misconstrue my words.  I'm simply saying that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Biden's handlers decided to roll those dice rather than allow a situation where Putin is seen to be winning against NATO.  On this issue...

You can state your opinion but it does not change that your opinion is factually wrong.  You can accept or reject whatever you want but facts and reality do not support your opinion.  Your opinion doesn't bother me, what bothers me is you constantly spreading information that is blatantly not true.

As for the patriot missile system, from the American military itself.

https://sill-www.army.mil/30ada/ait.html

"Job training for a PATRIOT launching station enhanced operator requires 10 weeks of Basic Combat Training and 13 weeks of Advanced Individual Training with on-the-job instruction. Part of this time is spent in the classroom and in the field under simulated combat conditions."

Other positions may require 16 to 20 weeks of advanced training but that has no real change on Ukrainian troops being trained to use the patriot missile system by mid July to start of August.

So far Ukraine has been promised two patriot batteries and some additional launchers.  Depending on the missile and target the range of a patriot missile is between 30 km and 160 km.  A single battery has between 5 to 8 launchers.  Depending on how they are set up with the two batteries alone and not factoring in the additional launchers Ukraine is getting and assuming no overlap in launcher coverage Ukraine could defend between approximately 28,270 square km and 1,286,784 square km.  Ukraine is approximately 603,700 square km.  Once again that is facts and reality not lining up with your opinion cause your narrative is more important than reality to you.

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 hours ago, and-then said:

That timeline for the earlier generation of Abrams makes sense but having the Patriots arrive sooner means they'll have to be manned by trained personnel other than Ukrainians.  You know, like that USAF pilot who says he'll be happy to fly the F-16s?

The Air Force Pilot you’re speaking about is a retiree, he is no longer on active duty. So, as a civilian he can legally fight for the Ukraine if he chooses too do!

3 hours ago, and-then said:

 

That just shows how the lines are being blurred.  If the US is paying contractors to man and operate these US-supplied systems, how is that NOT the US being a combatant?

i don’t understand how the lines are blurred at all. There are a number of Americans fighting the Russians for Ukrainian freedom, it would only be logical to assume most if not all are working in their US Military career fields. As far as, the US paying contractors to operate US Supplied Systems I know nothing about that, and if you have inside information please post it or I will assume your comments are based upon your opinion not supported by any facts.

I think your accusations are baseless and very ridiculous, if I am wrong post a source and I will apologize if not you should!

[Occult1]

5 hours ago, and-then said:

That just shows how the lines are being blurred.

I think you're right. The trail of logistics and maintenance to operate those weapons on Ukrainian soil is enormous.

It might be Ukrainian servicemen operating them but the U.S has become deeply embedded in every aspect of this conflict.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Occult1

[+and-then]

6 hours ago, Trelane said:

What are your sources of information then?

What possible difference do you imagine that would make?  The differences in beliefs are hard-set and unchanging.  It's a waste of time to go through that again.  Every source I've mentioned, immediately gets dissed by those who disagree.  My contention is NOT that I know I am correct and others are wrong.  My contention is that propaganda is being heavily pushed BY BOTH SIDES.  

Once more, to be clear, I do not desire that Ukraine be defeated by Russia.  I do not believe Putin is a "good guy".  I DO believe that this war could have been avoided had negotiations been allowed to go forward in February of 2022.  The reality seems to be that it is DC/NATO that have completely ruled out any negotiations at this point.  In fact, DC's spokesperson has rejected the calls by Xi, out of hand.  At this point, the only people dying in large numbers are Ukrainians and Russians.  Why the HELL do we get a veto on the path forward?

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 hours ago, Occult1 said:

I think you're right. The trail of logistics and maintenance to operate those weapons on Ukrainian soil is enormous.

It might be Ukrainian servicemen operating them but the U.S has become deeply embedded in every aspect of this conflict.

Do you have sources for the bolded comments above?

[+Nuclear Wessel]

5 hours ago, and-then said:

I DO believe that this war could have been avoided had negotiations been allowed to go forward in February of 2022. The reality seems to be that it is DC/NATO that have completely ruled out any negotiations at this point. 

For the umpteenth time, you conveniently (and, disappointingly, repeatedly) forget that peace proposals were rejected by Putin fairly early in the war. This war had nothing to do with being unable to find a peaceful resolution to existing geopolitical issues and everything to do with fulfilling an expansionist agenda.

I don't understand why this needs to be repeated to you so often.

5 hours ago, and-then said:

In fact, DC's spokesperson has rejected the calls by Xi, out of hand.

They weren't calls to end the Russo-Ukrainian war, specifically - they have essentially been repeated ad nauseam by the Kremlin with no actual proposition on a clear path to achieve peace goals. No conditions for withdrawals have been set, etc - if Putin was truly interested in peace he would withdraw his troops from Ukraine and then begin the process of peace talks, not try to coerce Zelensky to the negotiations table by continuing to kill more innocent people. The lack of Kremlin discourse on the withdrawal of Russian troops is very telling.

I'm sure you'll conveniently forget everything again, though.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Nuclear Wessel

[jmccr8]

7 hours ago, and-then said:

What possible difference do you imagine that would make?  The differences in beliefs are hard-set and unchanging.  It's a waste of time to go through that again.  Every source I've mentioned, immediately gets dissed by those who disagree.  My contention is NOT that I know I am correct and others are wrong.  My contention is that propaganda is being heavily pushed BY BOTH SIDES.  

Once more, to be clear, I do not desire that Ukraine be defeated by Russia.  I do not believe Putin is a "good guy".  I DO believe that this war could have been avoided had negotiations been allowed to go forward in February of 2022.  The reality seems to be that it is DC/NATO that have completely ruled out any negotiations at this point.  In fact, DC's spokesperson has rejected the calls by Xi, out of hand.  At this point, the only people dying in large numbers are Ukrainians and Russians.  Why the HELL do we get a veto on the path forward?

Hi And Then

Just curious what negotiations on February 2022 are you referring to? That is when Russia invaded the Ukraine attacking Kiev with the intention of taking the whole country by force. The only negotiation that Putin wanted was surrender, he was upset that he had no longer any political influence because the citizens of the Ukraine voted for Zelenski giving a clear message that they were not interested in Russian backed politics in their country.

Edited March 22, 2023 by jmccr8

[Trelane]

Just checking in to see if the Russian forces have successfully taken Bakhmut yet. No? Pity, and they were doing so well...

[+Nuclear Wessel]

4 hours ago, Trelane said:

Just checking in to see if the Russian forces have successfully taken Bakhmut yet. No? Pity, and they were doing so well...

Yeah, a certain somebody has been repeating that Bakhmut is about to fall since September. Lol.

[Trelane]

Doubling back to earlier posts about train up time for the Patriot system. I think we can assume the BCT training phase was waived, as that is basic combat training and by this point the vast majority of Ukrainian Soldiers now have plenty of. That leaves the familiarization, maintenance and utilization training for the system. That's really a lot less time. I'm sure there are already battery commanders trained and ready to go at this point.