House Republicans continue GOP’s affront to law enforcement

[+Link of Hyrule]

7 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

It's almost like Trump purposely skirts the line when he talks to keep out of legal trouble...

It's almost like Trump didn't do anything wrong!

 

7 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

So what's your thoughts on Trump saying he will pardon Jan 6th rioters if he wins?

Seems like a pretty clear indication that he supports what they did. No law and order when it comes to his cult followers.

Bluster.  Appealing to some of his voter  base! If he really wanted to pardon them,  he'd have done it in 2021! Realistically,  the claim is meaningless.  Best case scenario for Trump is he won't do anything until he leaves office in 2029, nearly 6 years away.  Even the QAnon shaman is already out and he was given 4 years! The numbers who would still be awaiting trial or serving federal sentences is so vanishingly small that if they are still being prosecuted/punished by 2029, then maybe they should be pardoned!

Some of the pardons I've read about from other presidents would make any remaining J6 rioters seem like angels in comparison!

Edited April 6, 2023 by Paranoid Android

[Golden Duck]

On 4/6/2023 at 7:42 AM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Apropos that, here in Queensland, we have a Police SERVICE. When my old man joined up, and when the ‘honourable’ leader of the opposition for that matter (he’ll turn up later in this conversation) joined, it was a Police FORCE. And, when it had the nickname the Johstapo (after Premier and practicing lunatic) Joh Bejike-Pietersen. At one point, for demonstration, the Uni students were having a protest about (IIRC) gay rights. Joh’s solution? Ambush the protestors and have the coppers beat the living daylights out of anyone they caught. 
Anyhoo…. Reform came and part of that reform was a rename, from a Force to a Service. To serve the community and not enforce rules. Basically, it was marketing, but important marketing when the Police were considered (rightly) to be no better than the thugs they dealt with. 
 

Recently, the ‘honourable’ leader of the opposition (and others, including our version of MTG, Pauline Hansen) were having a whinge that the police should be a Force again because … stuffed if I know, they want a “us versus them” style enformcent Agency I presume. 

I'm wondering how he was involved in the Australian Customs Service transitioning to the Border Force.  I haven't bothered to look it up, but wasn't Deeta Putton the first Minister for Home Affairs Super Department?

[spartan max2]

28 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

It's almost like Trump didn't do anything wrong!

 

Bluster.  Appealing to some of his voter  base! If he really wanted to pardon them,  he'd have done it in 2021! Realistically,  the claim is meaningless.  Best case scenario for Trump is he won't do anything until he leaves office in 2029, nearly 6 years away.  Even the QAnon shaman is already out and he was given 4 years! The numbers who would still be awaiting trial or serving federal sentences is so vanishingly small that if they are still being prosecuted/punished by 2029, then maybe they should be pardoned!

Some of the pardons I've read about from other presidents would make any remaining J6 rioters seem like angels in comparison!

People storm the Whitehouse in his name and his response is to say he will offer pardons if he wins

It's not rocket science my man.

[+Link of Hyrule]

7 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

People storm the Whitehouse in his name and his response is to say he will offer pardons if he wins

It's not rocket science my man.

He offered pardons, lomg after he had the authority to actually give them in 2021, with the promise of what he might do (there no guarantee he'll do any such thing) six years from now!

I agree, it's not rocket science

Edited April 6, 2023 by Paranoid Android

[spartan max2]

Just now, Paranoid Android said:

He offered pardons, lomg after he had the authority to actually give them in 2021, with the promise of what he might do (there no guarantee he'll do any such thing) six years from now!

I agree, it's not rocket science

Does offering pardons send a message of condemnation or of support? 

If someone storms the Whitehouse in your name and then you say you will pardon them it definitely sounds like support. 

You really have to do gymnastics to see it otherwise 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

The "They" you mention wasn't government, unless you are talking about the British.   

The “they” were the colonial governors (locals). 

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

The “they” were the colonial governors (locals). 

Who were British.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

15 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Who were British.

Bloody EVERYONE in the colonies at That point were British. 
America was founded by Puritians, the sort of caring, inclusive souls who thought smiling on the Sabbath was heretical and who thought Africans were worth half that of white men because Bible says so. They hated Catholics and thought Satan sent Martin Luther. 

[RavenHawk]

8 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

You tie religion and politics really close together. Our nation was founded on a separation of church and state due to all the religious violence and persecution happening in Europe that people tried to escape.

No, not religion and politics but I tie faith and politics close together.  If they are not, then you are but one step away from a totalitarian or authoritarian regime.  And those are just other kinds of religion.  Faith and Religion are not the same thing.  Our nation was not founded on the concept of separation of church and state.  You probably stopped reading the Bill of Rights at “1^st Amendment:”.  The concept of church and state came from a letter that Jefferson wrote to a Baptist church in Danbury, CT prior to him becoming President and 15 years after the Constitution was Ratified.  The concept was Jefferson’s understanding of the first 2 clauses of the 1A.  The idea of that first clause was to prevent a state religion, not abolish it altogether.  The Founders were wise in understanding the possible abuses of religion.  They didn’t need to forbid religion, just keep it where it belongs, as an individual’s faith.  It wasn’t a roadblock to prevent leadership seeking guidance in their faith.  Seeking such guidance is not establishing a state religion.  It doesn’t prevent us from being a Christian Nation.  That adjective refers to the people and not the government.  Most people are Christian of some sort, that does not establish a state religion.  What the Left tends to do is replace the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses with “Separation of Church and State”, primarily because it is vaguer and that gives the Left room to wordcraft a new meaning.  They only pay attention to the first clause:

“make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,”

The Left seems to ignore the second clause about not prohibiting the free exercise thereof… because it doesn’t fit their concept of “separation”.  They don’t stop to try to understand what Jefferson meant, just the face value of what he said.  You see, religion as well as business and especially the people have a right to petition the government for redress of grievances.

 

Quote

Politics and religion are a match made in hell. 

No.  Ignorance and corruption are a match made in hell.

 

[+Link of Hyrule]

57 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Does offering pardons send a message of condemnation or of support? 

If someone storms the Whitehouse in your name and then you say you will pardon them it definitely sounds like support. 

You really have to do gymnastics to see it otherwise 

Not when he actually had the power to pardon them in 2021 and chose not to! You have to twist and turn like a twisty turny thing to ignore that context and pretend Trump is right behind the rioters. 

I suspect we'll be going around in circles on this,  so I'm unlikely to continue arguing the point further,  anything else would just retread old ground. 

[spartan max2]

6 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

Not when he actually had the power to pardon them in 2021 and chose not to! You have to twist and turn like a twisty turny thing to ignore that context and pretend Trump is right behind the rioters. 

I suspect we'll be going around in circles on this,  so I'm unlikely to continue arguing the point further,  anything else would just retread old ground. 

So you're going to ignore what Trump said because he didn't pardon the Jan 6th rioters in the last two weeks of his presidency? Before they were even convicted of anything?

Telling the people that stormed the white house in your name that you will pardon them if you became president sends a clear message.

You can ignore that message because you don't like what it is but the message was still made.

I've said many times that Trump's support is cultist and those who are fine with cultist as long as it helps them win. You guys think you can keep them in line but Jan 6th showed differently. 

[lightly]

4 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

This is the sentence I stopped reading your post at.

You tie religion and politics really close together. Our nation was founded on a separation of church and state due to all the religious violence and persecution happening in Europe that people tried to escape. 

Politics and religion are a match made in hell. 

True.  History proves you right on that.    Religion can be used to justify political decisions.   But, I think, what’s more dangerous and damaging is the marriage of Business and government that we have in place.   Every policy decision is made for capitalistic reasons…politics ,rather than religion, is the justification nowadays.,but both systems served the same master…CAPITALISM.   The  Bi-party system we have in place now is a sham. 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

32 minutes ago, lightly said:

True.  History proves you right on that.    Religion can be used to justify political decisions.   But, I think, what’s more dangerous and damaging is the marriage of Business and government that we have in place.   Every policy decision is made for capitalistic reasons…politics ,rather than religion, is the justification nowadays.,but both systems served the same master…CAPITALISM.   The  Bi-party system we have in place now is a sham. 

You think that business/government marriage is worse than religion/government marriage?? Yikes. Think Iran, Israel just to name two.

I'm a Libertarian and must favor free market, v. capitalism. However, I think - also as a Libertarian, that both of those above options be pushed aside.

Freedom/government. Now *that's* the way to go. 

[Golden Duck]

2 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

So you're going to ignore what Trump said because he didn't pardon the Jan 6th rioters in the last two weeks of his presidency? Before they were even convicted of anything?

Telling the people that stormed the white house in your name that you will pardon them if you became president sends a clear message.

You can ignore that message because you don't like what it is but the message was still made.

I've said many times that Trump's support is cultist and those who are fine with cultist as long as it helps them win. You guys think you can keep them in line but Jan 6th showed differently. 

The rioters had not been found guilty. Pardoning an innocent is problematic, as Ford's pardon of Nixon demonstrated.  A pardon is not exoneration.  A pardon imputes guilt.  Accepting it confesses guilt.

Would Trump grant pardons to correct a miscarriage of justice?  Maybe granting pardons might have jeopardised a foreshadowed impeachment.  Perhaps it's is not a great deal to grant a pradon when leaving the White House.  The opportunity for quid pro quo exists if he offers clemency on condition of regaining the Presidency.

[RavenHawk]

3 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

No it wasn't, the UK was established on that belief, but the U.S. was established on the idea of freedom of religion, which includes the lack of belief in God.

Are you thinking that freedom of religion means being free of religion?  It was to be able to worship their god the way they see fit, which is still based on their faith in GOD.  Most people were some sect of Christianity, so their god is GOD.  The ideas laid down came from men that were mostly Christian.  But they never intended to exclude any other religion.  They considered different religions like class.  All were welcomed as long as you conducted yourself as a loyal patriot.  That was really the only requirement of citizenship.

 

Quote

Since no one can agree what “falling away from GOD” maybe you could state your belief of what that means since you used the phrase. 

Falling away from GOD means turning your back from his tenets.  What is there to agree about?  John Adams was quoted to say that our Constitution only works with a moral and righteous people.  When enough have fallen away, then the nation is no longer moral and righteous.  And when that happens, the Shedim enter into the abode and they have.  This is the source of rising crime, murder, and child exploitation.

 

Quote

Those are all gods, so your statement that there is a falling away from God and replacing it with some other God is ludicrous.  

You miss my reference.  GOD is a proper name.  GOD refers to the entity known as Elohim, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc.  In some places, he might be called Allah or Brahma.  The Shedim are demons.  The polytheistic pantheon of gods from ancient Egypt, Babylon, or ancient Greece, could very well be ancient space travelers??  Throughout history, those three groups have been interchanged and confused.

 

Quote

Politics and god are not the same thing.

I think you mean politics and religion.  Religion and GOD are not the same thing.

 

Quote

 And this country was founded on keeping religion out of politics Or at least keeping it separate from government, which currently is politics.

It wasn’t founded on keeping religion out of politics.  It was founded to keep government out of the lives of the individual, which includes not establishing a police state or state religion.  It was never founded to prohibit the free expression of religion by anyone.

 

[+Link of Hyrule]

3 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

So you're going to ignore what Trump said because he didn't pardon the Jan 6th rioters in the last two weeks of his presidency? Before they were even convicted of anything?

Telling the people that stormed the white house in your name that you will pardon them if you became president sends a clear message.

You can ignore that message because you don't like what it is but the message was still made.

I've said many times that Trump's support is cultist and those who are fine with cultist as long as it helps them win. You guys think you can keep them in line but Jan 6th showed differently. 

I said I was unlikely to reply as I may just be repeating myself,  but I wanted to clarify one point! By 2029, if there are any people still being prosecuted or incarcerated for what happened in 2021, it could be seen as excessive by many. Thus to say he would pardon them is more a commentary on on unjust prosecutions rather than tacit approval!

You can be against the rioting but make a statement about excessive prosecution. 

[+Desertrat56]

14 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Bloody EVERYONE in the colonies at That point were British. 
America was founded by Puritians, the sort of caring, inclusive souls who thought smiling on the Sabbath was heretical and who thought Africans were worth half that of white men because Bible says so. They hated Catholics and thought Satan sent Martin Luther. 

RIght which makes your comment irrelevant because we were talking about the U.S. separation of church and state.  

[Antigonos]

15 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

The rioters had not been found guilty. Pardoning an innocent is problematic, as Ford's pardon of Nixon demonstrated.  A pardon is not exoneration.  A pardon imputes guilt.  Accepting it confesses guilt.

Which is precisely why when you accept that pardon, you are no longer protected by the Fifth Amendment.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

7 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

RIght which makes your comment irrelevant because we were talking about the U.S. separation of church and state.  

I do believe I was talking about the foundation of America … 

[+Desertrat56]

27 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I do believe I was talking about the foundation of America … 

Well, that's weird because the conversation was about the separation of church and state.  The foundation of America is a much  broader topic as it includes Canada and Mexico, as well as all the South american countries.    I get it you thought you were talking about the foundation of the U.S.   And you weren't, you were talking about before the U.S. became it's own country.  Part of the reason for separation of church and state was because of the way the colonial governors treated the colonists.   

[lightly]

On 4/6/2023 at 7:37 PM, RavenHawk said:

 

It wasn’t founded on keeping religion out of politics.  It was founded to keep government out of the lives of the individual, which includes not establishing a police state or state religion.  It was never founded to prohibit the free expression of religion by anyone.

 

I think the idea was to put government IN the hands of the people..so as not to be governed from above, but from Within.  . “a government OF, BY, and FOR the People” .. Self Governance.  Which means the people are to have the power to decide any issue.    We could agree to  anything…and make it law by MAJORITY RULE.  ..which, if we think about it, could be as dangerous to us as any other form of ‘government’.     And,I agree with your point about freedom.

Edited April 8, 2023 by lightly

[Rlyeh]

On 4/7/2023 at 6:30 AM, RavenHawk said:

Ba’al, Ashtoreth, and Molech.  Molech was the epiphany for me.  The god of child sacrifice.

Prefer your god of genocide and slavery.

 

On 4/7/2023 at 6:30 AM, RavenHawk said:

We have mutilation and sterilization (gender affirming care) and forcing children into drag queen events.

Pretty much what the American Christians already do, except to babies.

 

On 4/7/2023 at 6:30 AM, RavenHawk said:

  This is just one step from pedophilia in the open.

You religious types are more experienced when it comes to covering up pedophilia.

[Piney]

On 4/6/2023 at 7:39 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Bloody EVERYONE in the colonies at That point were British. 
America was founded by Puritians, the sort of caring, inclusive souls who thought smiling on the Sabbath was heretical and who thought Africans were worth half that of white men because Bible says so. They hated Catholics and thought Satan sent Martin Luther. 

I gotta correct you on that. Quakers laid the foundations for American government and many give the Puritans credit for our work.

The Puritans would of kept it a theocracy, but luckily died out.

 

[Doug1066]

On 4/6/2023 at 6:50 PM, Paranoid Android said:

Not when he actually had the power to pardon them in 2021 and chose not to!

Sort of hung them out to dry, didn't he?

Doug

[+Link of Hyrule]

6 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Sort of hung them out to dry, didn't he?

Doug

Only if he incited a riot! If he did no such thing (he definitely did not) then he simply ignored them! As was expected to happen!