No Ukraine offensive without more weapons – Zelensky

[Unusual Tournament]

No Ukraine offensive without more weapons – Zelensky

He told a Japanese newspaper he would not send his troops to the frontlines without more tanks, artillery and Himars rocket launchers. 

In an interview with Yomiuri Shimbun, he said the situation in eastern Ukraine was "not good".

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65075952.amp

 

 

[+and-then]

So... now if they fail, it's our fault?

[Occult1]

This war is getting too expensive for the West. Time to accept that Ukraine will probably lose eastern Ukraine.

[+and-then]

12 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

This war is getting too expensive for the West. Time to accept that Ukraine will probably lose eastern Ukraine.

Every day and every new life lost is pushing people further away from accepting this.  Imagine that in the end, after suffering hundreds of thousands of casualties, major destruction of nearly all cities, economic and social devastation that will take years to recover from, Ukrainians wind up losing the east and Crimea, anyway.  That is not guaranteed but it is a definite possibility and if that occurs, the Ukrainians should look to the west for reparations.

[Ell]

This war is absurd.

[spartan max2]

32 minutes ago, and-then said:

Every day and every new life lost is pushing people further away from accepting this.  Imagine that in the end, after suffering hundreds of thousands of casualties, major destruction of nearly all cities, economic and social devastation that will take years to recover from, Ukrainians wind up losing the east and Crimea, anyway.  That is not guaranteed but it is a definite possibility and if that occurs, the Ukrainians should look to the west for reparations.

I'm curious.

Say if a small eastern European nation like Lativa, that is part of NATO was invaded.

Would your stances be the same as it is with Ukraine ?

[spartan max2]

I really think this is what he says at every nation he visits, as a strategy to get more weapons.

I don't blame him. Makes sense when you are fighting for survival 

Edited March 27, 2023 by spartan max2

[DarkHunter]

20 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I really think this is what he says at every nation he visits, as a strategy to get more weapons.

I don't blame him. Makes sense when you are fighting for survival 

He was never going to say Ukraine has enough or a surplus of weapons and that a counter offensive is definitely coming.  

One thing that is being overlooked, and understandably so cause it hasnt been brought up here yet is where the interview was at/who it was for.  The interview was with a Japanese paper and meant for a Japanese audience.  Doubt many know that Japan recently has been considering a change to the Japanese constitution to allow for the exporting of weapon systems and ammunition.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/11/18/national/lethal-weapons-exports/

This interview by Zelensky was almost certainly meant to help push that forward.  While it's not expected that if the Japanese constitution is changed that Japan would start sending weapons and ammunition to Ukraine it is expected they would help NATO countries replenish their stockpiles and thus free up more aid from NATO countries to Ukraine.

Edited March 27, 2023 by DarkHunter

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, and-then said:

So... now if they fail, it's our fault?

You seem surprised, yet I’m not. Ukraine is a country that done very little to defend itself and bought even fewer weapons. Instead relying on the generosity of the west.
 

it was a country split between Ukrainian nationalists and Russian speakers. Artificial in every sense if the word

…and they sulk

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

This war is getting too expensive for the West. Time to accept that Ukraine will probably lose eastern Ukraine.

Putin should not be rewarded. But by the same token neither should we expect a basket case to perform miracles off and on the battlefield. 
 

Russia will have its piece of Ukraine and the west will have its, but the after taste will be bitter for all!

Edited March 27, 2023 by Unusual Tournament

[DarkHunter]

3 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

You seem surprised, yet I’m not. Ukraine is a country that done very little to defend itself and bought even fewer weapons. Instead relying on the generosity of the west.
 

it was a country split between Ukrainian nationalists and Russian speakers. Artificial in every sense if the word

…and they sulk

Way to downplay the approximate 700,000 Ukranians fighting to keep their country free from Russia.  Just cause Ukraine has received aid from the west doesnt mean they have done little to defend themselves.

Using your logic every country that received aid from America in WW2 dis little to defend themselves too.

[Unusual Tournament]

Special shout out to @Occult1 @and-then for showing foresight and a degree of intelligence in seeing the reality of this sad war

[Unusual Tournament]

Just now, DarkHunter said:

Way to downplay the approximate 700,000 Ukranians fighting to keep their country free from Russia.  Just cause Ukraine has received aid from the west doesnt mean they have done little to defend themselves.

Using your logic every country that received aid from America in WW2 dis little to defend themselves too.

What’s the problem? I’ve only been pointing out the futility of Ukraine’s charity war, even provided a link. 16 years under attack and they behaved like gypsies negotiating like the world owes them a favour.

This war is coming to an end! 

[DarkHunter]

Just now, Unusual Tournament said:

What’s the problem? I’ve only been pointing out the futility of Ukraine’s charity war, even provided a link. 16 years under attack and they behaved like gypsies negotiating like the world owes them a favour.

This war is coming to an end! 

Ukraine has reformed their army and from 2014 to 2022 has essentially turned their entire military around.  It's not like Ukraine stopped the Russian pushes on Kyiv, pushed the Russians out of Kharkiv oblast back to Luhansk oblast, and liberated Kherson and everything west of the Dnieper river.  Also going to ignore how Ukraine essentially destroyed the VDV, continue to maul elite Russian naval infantry brigades, and devastated elite Russian Guards units.  According to you cause they received aid from western countries they have done little to defend themselves.

No idea where you are getting 16 years from but you never really cares for facts anyway, proffering Russian propaganda and misinformation so not surprising you get basic facts and dates wrong too.

[Occult1]

56 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

He was never going to say Ukraine has enough or a surplus of weapons and that a counter offensive is definitely coming.  

One thing that is being overlooked, and understandably so cause it hasnt been brought up here yet is where the interview was at/who it was for.  The interview was with a Japanese paper and meant for a Japanese audience.  Doubt many know that Japan recently has been considering a change to the Japanese constitution to allow for the exporting of weapon systems and ammunition.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/11/18/national/lethal-weapons-exports/

This interview by Zelensky was almost certainly meant to help push that forward.  While it's not expected that if the Japanese constitution is changed that Japan would start sending weapons and ammunition to Ukraine it is expected they would help NATO countries replenish their stockpiles and thus free up more aid from NATO countries to Ukraine.

Here are some interesting quotes from the BBC article:

''Some analysts say Ukraine's military is talking up the idea of a counter-offensive to discomfit their Russian counterparts. They want Russian commanders to spread their forces thinly along the front lines, ready for any attack, rather than concentrate them in particular places, such as the eastern city of Bakhmut. ''

And

''But President Zelensky is more pessimistic. He has often warned that the war could drag on for years unless Western allies speeded up the delivery of weapons. But this is the first time he has actually said the counter-offensive itself might be delayed by the lack of Western equipment. ''

 

Ukraine will need a massive amount of weapons and ammunition for any counter-offensive to successful. They will also need a surplus in manpower.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Occult1

[DarkHunter]

15 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Ukraine will need a massive amount of weapons and ammunition for any counter-offensive to successful. They will also need a surplus in manpower.

Considering Ukraine is still turning away volunteers for newly raised brigades manpower doesnt seem to be a problem.  

Ukraine will need weapons and ammunition and that is why Ukraine should be supplied with what they need to defeat Russia.

Once Ukraine liberates the rest of its territory it will be fun seeing what excuses you make for Russia's defeat

[+Nuclear Wessel]

2 hours ago, Occult1 said:

This war is getting too expensive for the West. Time to accept that Ukraine will probably lose eastern Ukraine.

Just like the fall of Bakhmut being imminent and the three day invasion and the alleged non-existence of Ukrainian Air Force and the government being filled with neonazis? I could go on, but you get the point.

Wait, no, you probably don’t. You’re probably confused, again, for the millionth time. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Nuclear Wessel

[Alpha_Q]

1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

He was never going to say Ukraine has enough or a surplus of weapons and that a counter offensive is definitely coming.  

One thing that is being overlooked, and understandably so cause it hasnt been brought up here yet is where the interview was at/who it was for.  The interview was with a Japanese paper and meant for a Japanese audience.  Doubt many know that Japan recently has been considering a change to the Japanese constitution to allow for the exporting of weapon systems and ammunition.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/11/18/national/lethal-weapons-exports/

This interview by Zelensky was almost certainly meant to help push that forward.  While it's not expected that if the Japanese constitution is changed that Japan would start sending weapons and ammunition to Ukraine it is expected they would help NATO countries replenish their stockpiles and thus free up more aid from NATO countries to Ukraine.

Further, Zelensky is no fool and realizes the situation Ukraine is in vis à vis NATO and the West's desire to watch Russia bleed itself dry. The amount of money spent by NATO in the form of weapons systems, equipment and support seems large, but is small compared to what it would be if this was a full scale war involving NATO troops and their best equipment, including aircraft. In exchange for providing weapons, NATO doesn't lose any lives and can observe how Russian troops perform, how their intelligence functions, their tactics, the effects on their infrastructure, etc. Fully aware that the Ukrainian people are taking the full brunt of this war while NATO watches and benefits in this way, you're damn right Zelensky is going to make NATO and the west bring more to the table. To conclude, you don't enter a negotiation to ask for donations by saying you don't really need what the other side has. Not sure how that eluded the three genuises here.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Alpha_Q

[pellinore]

1 hour ago, Alpha_Q said:

Further, Zelensky is no fool and realizes the situation Ukraine is in vis à vis NATO and the West's desire to watch Russia bleed itself dry. The amount of money spent by NATO in the form of weapons systems, equipment and support seems large, but is small compared to what it would be if this was a full scale war involving NATO troops and their best equipment, including aircraft. In exchange for providing weapons, NATO doesn't lose any lives and can observe how Russian troops perform, how their intelligence functions, their tactics, the effects on their infrastructure, etc. Fully aware that the Ukrainian people are taking the full brunt of this war while NATO watches and benefits in this way, you're damn right Zelensky is going to make NATO and the west bring more to the table. To conclude, you don't enter a negotiation to ask for donations by saying you don't really need what the other side has. Not sure how that eluded the three genuises here.

This is the cheapest war the US has been involved in- not one US life has been lost as far as I know. And the intel gathered is priceless- for 70 years NATO has war-gamed, trying to guess what would happen if Russia invaded the West- now they are finding out. 

 

[pellinore]

2 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

What’s the problem? I’ve only been pointing out the futility of Ukraine’s charity war, even provided a link. 16 years under attack and they behaved like gypsies negotiating like the world owes them a favour.

This war is coming to an end! 

It is not charity, the West pledged to support Ukraine in just this situation decades ago. It is not even about Ukraine, if you read down my link you will see Ukraine is just one consideration of NATOs- they are pledged to stop Russian aggression, whatever country Russia threatens.

NATO - Topic: Relations with Russia

[Unusual Tournament]

Just now, pellinore said:

It is not charity, the West pledged to support Ukraine in just this situation decades ago. It is not even about Ukraine, if you read down my link you will see Ukraine is just one consideration of NATOs- they are pledged to stop Russian aggression, whatever country Russia threatens.

NATO - Topic: Relations with Russia

So basically what you’re saying is that America will fight Russia to the very last Ukrainian, and Zelensky is asking for weapons and ammunition so more Ukrainians can die for the west while the Americans and Europeans are only drip feeding weapons and ammunition to those dying, so therefore Zelensky is threatening no more offensives until we get more weapons. 
 

Did I get that right?

[pellinore]

12 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

So basically what you’re saying is that America will fight Russia to the very last Ukrainian, and Zelensky is asking for weapons and ammunition so more Ukrainians can die for the west while the Americans and Europeans are only drip feeding weapons and ammunition to those dying, so therefore Zelensky is threatening no more offensives until we get more weapons. 
 

Did I get that right?

You missed a few points- peaceful Russia has been forced to reluctantly defend itself again Ukraine's attack; and President Trump, once his stolen presidency is restored, will end the war in 24 hours. Oh, and NATOs Nazi special forces are committing war crimes in Ukraine so the blame can be attributed to Russian forces.

Now I think you have summed up the war to your satisfaction.

[Unusual Tournament]

50 minutes ago, pellinore said:

It is not charity, the West pledged to support Ukraine in just this situation decades ago. It is not even about Ukraine, if you read down my link you will see Ukraine is just one consideration of NATOs- they are pledged to stop Russian aggression, whatever country Russia threatens.

NATO - Topic: Relations with Russia

Someone should tell Zelensky because he’s acting very mercenary by threatening not to go forward without more weapons, probably also wants a monthly pay increase while they’re at it

Edited March 27, 2023 by Unusual Tournament

[pellinore]

28 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Someone should tell Zelensky because he’s acting very mercenary by threatening not to go forward without more weapons, probably also wants a monthly pay increase while they’re at it

Why not? Would you fancy spending a few days on the frontline in Ukraine? It irritates me that armchair warriors in the West cry over spending the equivalent of a few Big Macs a month providing aid to them, when the alternative is having Russia rewarded for its aggression, encouraging other terrorist countries, and then the US really will have to do something. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by pellinore

[Ell]

4 hours ago, pellinore said:

spending the equivalent of a few Big Macs a month providing aid to them, when the alternative is having Russia rewarded for its aggression

If the Ukrain had surrendered on the first day of the Russian invasion, how many people would have been killed, how many villages and cities would have been turned into rubble, how many people would have become fugitives?