30,000 soldiers from Putin ‘private army’ and regular Russian units killed or wounded in Bakhmut

[pellinore]

Around 30,000 soldiers from Vladimir Putin’s Wagner Group “private army” and regular Russian units have been killed or wounded in the battle for the eastern town of Bakhmut, says a top British military expert.

Ian Stubbs, senior military adviser at the UK Delegation to the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), stressed that the “staggering casualties” had been the cost of the Wagner mercenaries advancing just 25km (15.5 miles) in nine months.

Latest reports suggested that Wagner soldiers were still inching their way forward in fierce fighting towards the centre of Bakhmut in the eastern Donetsk province.

But Ukrainian military chiefs stressed that their forces were still holding the town.

30,000 soldiers from Putin ‘private army’ and regular Russian units killed or wounded in Bakhmut battle, UK | Evening Standard

Edited March 31 by pellinore

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

 

Edited March 31 by Sir Wearer of Hats

[Occult1]

There may be a reason why they are also not disclosing the losses on Ukrainian side.

[Tatetopa]

21 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

There may be a reason why they are also not disclosing the losses on Ukrainian side.

Of course there are.  Wars are fought in minds as well as battlefields.  I seriously doubt if the average Russian cares how many convicts dies in Wagner battle lines.  If it becomes their sons facing death, it might matter more, or it may not.  Maybe th eaveragfe Russian is willing to give up their child for Putin.  Ya think?

[Occult1]

45 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I seriously doubt if the average Russian cares how many convicts dies in Wagner battle lines.

That's the issue.

Russia is not losing it's regular troops in that battle. The casualties are virtually all convicts recruited from Russian prisons by Wagner. That seems to me a crucial point.

If Ukraine is losing some of it's best troops trying to defend Bakhmut against Wagner's army of convicts, that's a problem. Who is really bleeding who?

Edited March 31 by Occult1

[Stiff]

6 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Russia is not losing it's regular troops in that battle. The casualties are virtually all convicts recruited from Russian prisons by Wagner.

I would say it's a mix. russia have lost an awful lot of those newly recruited, poorly trained (if at all) young conscripts. It's been a blood bath for them, for little gain.

[kartikg]

This all could be propoganda by Ukraine and nato 

[Occult1]

30 minutes ago, Stiff said:

I would say it's a mix. russia have lost an awful lot of those newly recruited, poorly trained (if at all) young conscripts. It's been a blood bath for them, for little gain.

According to the United States, by mid-February Wagner had suffered more than 30,000 casualties in Ukraine, including 9,000 dead, almost all of them convicts. Prigozhin has insisted, however, the casualty rate among convict fighters is comparable to other Russian units.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/17/wagners-convicts-tell-of-horrors-of-ukraine-war

 

See also:

 

The ISW noted that on March 29, U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff General Mark Milley reported that the Wagner Group has around 6,000 professional personnel and 20,000 to 30,000 recruits, mostly convicts, fighting in the Bakhmut area.

https://www.newsweek.com/wagner-group-bakhmur-losses-prigozhin-ukraine-1791712

 

Convicted prisoners fighting in Bakhmut bear the brunt of the casualties on the Russian side.

Edited March 31 by Occult1

[Occult1]

I think we also have to look at troops quality and not just sheer numbers. If Ukraine is losing some of it's best troops at a 5-to-1 ratio against mostly convicts then clearly this battle of attrition is benefiting Russia.

Edited March 31 by Occult1

[Stiff]

9 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

I think we also have to look at troops quality and not just sheer numbers. If Ukraine is losing some of it's best troops at ratio of 5-to-1 against mostly convicts then clearly this battle of attrition is benefiting Russia.

[Trelane]

1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

That's the issue.

Russia is not losing it's regular troops in that battle. The casualties are virtually all convicts recruited from Russian prisons by Wagner. That seems to me a crucial point.

Oh no you're very right, Russia lost most of their "regulars" last Summer during the counteroffensive. What they have now is a cobbled mess of untrained conscripts with outdated equipment and sparse supplies.

 

Edited March 31 by Trelane

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, Occult1 said:

Russia is not losing it's regular troops in that battle. The casualties are virtually all convicts recruited from Russian prisons by Wagner. That seems to me a crucial point.

Only convicts.  Consider  the implications of that on a society.  If every crime results in a nearly certain death sentence, then to avoid being caught rape and robbery may just as well include murder. If capture means death then organized crime becomes a greater threat to the state.  Might as well go out in a blaze of glory.

[Occult1]

19 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Only convicts.  Consider  the implications of that on a society.  If every crime results in a nearly certain death sentence, then to avoid being caught rape and robbery may just as well include murder. If capture means death then organized crime becomes a greater threat to the state.  Might as well go out in a blaze of glory.

As far as I know, the convicted prisonners were recruited. It's voluntary. They chose to take a chance on a pardon if they survived 6 months on the frontlines.

According to Western media, many of them were murderers with probably little chance of getting out of prison.

''The influx of prisoners, including several convicted murderers, rapidly swelled Wagner’s ranks: the bulk of the group’s 50,000-strong forces are made up of about 40,000 convicts, according to the US Department of Defense.''

https://www.ft.com/content/32631455-50a7-489f-82ed-c2ab5c9851da

Edited March 31 by Occult1

[Tatetopa]

8 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

As far as I know, the convicted prisonners were recruited. It's voluntary. They chose to take a chance on a pardon if they survived 6 months on the frontlines.

Ah, so murderers who survive will be unleashed at home on Russian society after being brutalized and shot at for six months.  Surely the way to make good citizens.

[Stiff]

17 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Ah, so murderers who survive will be unleashed at home on Russian society after being brutalized and shot at for six months.  Surely the way to make good citizens.

Who'd have thought, eh?

 

[Electric Scooter]

14 hours ago, pellinore said:

Around 30,000 soldiers from Vladimir Putin’s Wagner Group “private army” and regular Russian units have been killed or wounded in the battle for the eastern town of Bakhmut, says a top British military expert.

Ian Stubbs, senior military adviser at the UK Delegation to the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), stressed that the “staggering casualties” had been the cost of the Wagner mercenaries advancing just 25km (15.5 miles) in nine months.

Latest reports suggested that Wagner soldiers were still inching their way forward in fierce fighting towards the centre of Bakhmut in the eastern Donetsk province.

But Ukrainian military chiefs stressed that their forces were still holding the town.

30,000 soldiers from Putin ‘private army’ and regular Russian units killed or wounded in Bakhmut battle, UK | Evening Standard

Who counted the bodies?

[Occult1]

30 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Ah, so murderers who survive will be unleashed at home on Russian society after being brutalized and shot at for six months.  Surely the way to make good citizens.

That is certainly a risk. But Prigozhin himself claimed that 80% of them will definitely not be coming back.

“Prigozhin says right away 80% will not be coming back”. How inmates are recruited into Wagner PMC to fight in Ukraine

https://theins.ru/en/confession/254206

 

Olga Romanova, who is a Russian journalist and a director of the civil rights organization Russia Behind Bars also mentioned in a PBS interview that:

 

''They could still recruit 150,000 to 200,000 prisoners, in addition to the 50,000 they have already signed up, easily.

And how has Russian society reacted? No one is sorry. Everyone prefers it to be the prisoners, rather than their own sons and husbands, naturally. So this policy is very popular.''

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/from-prison-to-the-frontlines-thousands-of-russian-convicts-sent-to-fight-in-ukraine

 

Edited March 31 by Occult1

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Ah, so murderers who survive will be unleashed at home on Russian society after being brutalized and shot at for six months.  Surely the way to make good citizens.

…war’s are a great way of weeding out the undesirables. Historically, the first to sign up or get pressed into service are the people that wanna kill others or have done it before and wanna do it again. 

Putin has taken it one step further, and given the criminals a chance to do the right thing by their country in such a way that Russian society benefits either way. The criminals die, no longer a burden on Russia, they live they’re too traumatised to do the wrong thing again. 
 

Om wondering how long before we in the west start using similar tactics to raise our own punishment battalions 

I wonder if anyone has done any research about crime rates after wars. 

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Ah, so murderers who survive will be unleashed at home on Russian society after being brutalized and shot at for six months.  Surely the way to make good citizens.

…if the statistics coming outta the Ukrainian propaganda machine are half accurate then I doubt those that survived the war in Ukraine will wanna do the wrong thing ever again

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

As far as I know, the convicted prisonners were recruited. It's voluntary. They chose to take a chance on a pardon if they survived 6 months on the frontlines.

According to Western media, many of them were murderers with probably little chance of getting out of prison.

''The influx of prisoners, including several convicted murderers, rapidly swelled Wagner’s ranks: the bulk of the group’s 50,000-strong forces are made up of about 40,000 convicts, according to the US Department of Defense.''

https://www.ft.com/content/32631455-50a7-489f-82ed-c2ab5c9851da

Won’t be long before BlackWater and the rest start petitioning the next Republican President to have access to the American penal system for “auxiliary purpose recruitment’

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, Occult1 said:

That is certainly a risk. But Prigozhin himself claimed that 80% of them will definitely not be coming back.

Just the toughest most feral 20% with new skills they have picked up.  That is reassuring.

[jmccr8]

9 hours ago, Occult1 said:

That's the issue.

Russia is not losing it's regular troops in that battle. The casualties are virtually all convicts recruited from Russian prisons by Wagner. That seems to me a crucial point.

If Ukraine is losing some of it's best troops trying to defend Bakhmut against Wagner's army of convicts, that's a problem. Who is really bleeding who?

Hi Occult

When this conflict started they didn’t use conscripts and were using trained military servicemen with elite forces. Now they are sending conscripts many times ill  equipped and trained almost like they were mass executing their undesirables to clean up on competing criminal groups. 
 
Of course they need to keep better trained forces to cover their borders even if they have alliances with. They can’t move those men or that equipment or munitions to the Ukraine as it would leave parts of the border weak and open to attack.

[jmccr8]

7 hours ago, Occult1 said:

As far as I know, the convicted prisonners were recruited. It's voluntary. They chose to take a chance on a pardon if they survived 6 months on the frontlines.

According to Western media, many of them were murderers with probably little chance of getting out of prison.

''The influx of prisoners, including several convicted murderers, rapidly swelled Wagner’s ranks: the bulk of the group’s 50,000-strong forces are made up of about 40,000 convicts, according to the US Department of Defense.''

https://www.ft.com/content/32631455-50a7-489f-82ed-c2ab5c9851da

Hi Occult

Volunteering is subjective, there were a couple of times I lined up the guys close to a wall and said anyone that does not want to participate take one step back and what do you know everyone decided to volunteer.

I f they can sentence a person to 2 years in jail for saying something online somewhere over your daughter painting a picture then that is their justice and doubt if at times peoples consent is not voluntary.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

14 hours ago, Occult1 said:

There may be a reason why they are also not disclosing the losses on Ukrainian side.

Clearly that’s because none of the Ukrainians have died *sarcasm*

[Trelane]

15 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

…war’s are a great way of weeding out the undesirables. Historically, the first to sign up or get pressed into service are the people that wanna kill others or have done it before and wanna do it again. 

Putin has taken it one step further, and given the criminals a chance to do the right thing by their country in such a way that Russian society benefits either way. The criminals die, no longer a burden on Russia, they live they’re too traumatised to do the wrong thing again. 
 

Om wondering how long before we in the west start using similar tactics to raise our own punishment battalions 

I wonder if anyone has done any research about crime rates after wars. 

I can tell you that after WW2 and Vietnam the Disciplinary Barracks (USDB) at Ft. Leavenworth saw an increase of 20-30% of the population.  This was due to various crimes committed during war and directly afterwards. I'll check with my friend who works at FCI Herlong and see what data points he can pull from the historicals.

Using criminals and conscripts for bullet sponges always has a negative impact both in ranks and when(if) they return home.