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19th Century Stone Working- Secrets of the Ancient World Revealed


Thanos5150

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7 hours ago, Piney said:

I think iron was used because of a trade breakdown and good copper, arsenic or tin couldn't be found in large supply. 

Google "Sword of Goujian"

I think it's craftsmen was a Eastern Iranian.

And it was cheap, plentiful and everywhere. Some clever people figured out how to smelt it from experimentation and/or desperation. This made a metal poor people into a rich and powerful people, overnight.

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17 hours ago, Piney said:

I think iron was used because of a trade breakdown and good copper, arsenic or tin couldn't be found in large supply. 

This is was my understanding as well though there is some debate over this. 

Quote

Google "Sword of Goujian"

Ok. 510 BC. This is related to posited bronze shortages of the end of the 2nd millennium?

Quote

I think it's craftsmen was a Eastern Iranian.

Ok. Why? 

It would not be surprising as the Silk road goes right through Persia, one of the largest hubs on its route: 

49351333897_77b6938423_o.png  

Namely: Merv Turkmenistan- One of the Greatest Ancient Cities on Earth

1808678542344eeb410709b92835eb84_large.j

A story for another time, but the relationship between Iran and Korea is an interesting one. 

I am curious-you often relate/refer things to Iran. Was this a field of study for you and if so what was it exactly?   

 

Edited by Thanos5150
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22 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

This is was my understanding as well though there is some debate over this. 

Ok. 510 BC. This is related to posited bronze shortages of the end of the 2nd millennium?

Ok. Why? 

It would not be surprising as the Silk road goes right through Persia, one of the largest hubs on its route: 

49351333897_77b6938423_o.png  

Namely: Merv Turkmenistan- One of the Greatest Ancient Cities on Earth

1808678542344eeb410709b92835eb84_large.j

A story for another time, but the relationship between Iran and Korea is an interesting one. 

I am curious-you often relate/refer things to Iran. Was this a field of study for you and if so what was it exactly?   

 

The Central Asian Eastern Iranians, but Central Asian nomads in general.

My stepmother is a Hungarian-Polish Arabian horse breeder who was interested in all things nomad especially her Cuman, Magyar and Sarmatian ancestors and along with my second stepfather donated lots of cash to the Silk Road Foundation and sent me on learning field trips/digs with them. Best time of my life.

I also have Alan ancestors on my mothers Jowett side.

Arabian horse is a misnomer though and many of the big breeders wrote their own revisionist history. It should be called the Iranian horse and I owned and bred a few myself. 

I'm really not interested in Persia proper, but since Iranian peoples stretched to China, Korea and Siberia, the fact that they brought their horse and metallurgy culture to the Chinese, Turks, Mongolians, Uralics is fascinating.

They found the Tocharians are genetically Uralic and a Uralic substrate was always known to be in their language which shows how much influence they had.

The Cumans are also a completely Turkish Iranian hybrid culture. Then the Turks again adopted Persian aspects when they came West.

Koreans are made up of about 3 different nomad groups smashed together and they swapped spit with Eastern Iranians.  

AUTISTIC RAMBLINGS!!!! BACK TO WORK!.....

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1 hour ago, Piney said:

Koreans are made up of about 3 different nomad groups smashed together and they swapped spit with Eastern Iranians.  

Ok, excuse me, but...are you suggesting Koreans met Eastern Iranians?

If so, why? And when?

Edited by Abramelin
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2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Ok, excuse me, but...are you suggesting Koreans met Eastern Iranians?

If so, why? And when?

Several of the tribes that make up the Koreans were part of the Kimek Kaganate and all over Siberia and Northern China where several Scythian tribes also dwelled.

Or simply put. They were Siberian and Northern Chinese nomads.

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2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Ok, excuse me, but...are you suggesting Koreans met Eastern Iranians?

If so, why? And when?

Also one of the groups who were part of the Korean ethnogenisis were Turkic. 

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4 hours ago, Piney said:

Several of the tribes that make up the Koreans were part of the Kimek Kaganate and all over Siberia and Northern China where several Scythian tribes also dwelled.

Or simply put. They were Siberian and Northern Chinese nomads.

Scholars reveal ancient Korean-Iranian diplomatic ties.

1,500 Years of Contact between Korea and the Middle East

Among archeological evidence:

"An ancient Persian epic poem, the Kushnameh, contains detailed descriptions of Silla. According to the 2014 book Kushnameh in Korea, a Sassanid prince named Abtin immigrated with his subjects to Silla. Abtin married a Silla princess named Frarang and contributed substantially to Silla society."

The Three Kingdoms of Korea includes Silla but also Goryeo, home of the Korean pyramids. Hmm.

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7 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Scholars reveal ancient Korean-Iranian diplomatic ties.

1,500 Years of Contact between Korea and the Middle East

Among archeological evidence:

"An ancient Persian epic poem, the Kushnameh, contains detailed descriptions of Silla. According to the 2014 book Kushnameh in Korea, a Sassanid prince named Abtin immigrated with his subjects to Silla. Abtin married a Silla princess named Frarang and contributed substantially to Silla society."

The Three Kingdoms of Korea includes Silla but also Goryeo, home of the Korean pyramids. Hmm.

The akinakes pictured is interesting. Other than the Liaoning daggers found in Korea which had Comb Ceramic connections that was the first sword style in Asia.

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3 hours ago, Piney said:

The akinakes pictured is interesting. Other than the Liaoning daggers found in Korea which had Comb Ceramic connections that was the first sword style in Asia.

Worth considering... 

Quote
Longquan's master swordsmiths

The Longquan sword is one of China's most iconic weapons and is listed as a national intangible cultural heritage item. The iron sand found in Longquan gives the blades made here extra resilience and strength.
22 Dec 2022

...

Quote
Ou Yezi
 
During the spring and autumn period in ancient China (770-476 BC), Ou Yezi, a master swordsmith from the State of Yue, is said to have made three valuable swords called Long Quan, Tai'e, and Gongbu at the foot of Qinxi Mountain in Longquan.7 Oct 2022

~

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4 hours ago, SHaYap said:

Worth considering... 

...

~

Preaching to the choir Shidoshi? 

You know I own 2 Lonquan pattern welded, 2 dull spring steel and one thousand fold blade. I even showed them to @Kenemet who loves sharpy pointy cutty thingies..

And a iron dragon vase.. 

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6 hours ago, Piney said:

Preaching to the choir Shidoshi? 

You know I own 2 Lonquan pattern welded, 2 dull spring steel and one thousand fold blade. I even showed them to @Kenemet who loves sharpy pointy cutty thingies..

And a iron dragon vase.. 

Yay pointy-stabby things!!!

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3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Yay pointy-stabby things!!!

More like flashy-slashy...

~

9 hours ago, Piney said:

Preaching to the choir Shidoshi? 

I was suggesting not only patterned but originating, my apologies... 

I heard recently numbers is now available due to the covid lock down, not the mass manufactured display decorations mind you, still takes about the better part of a year and a half to complete one. Not really astronomical but still costs a pretty handful of dollars. 

~

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7 hours ago, SHaYap said:

More like flashy-slashy...

~

I was suggesting not only patterned but originating, my apologies... 

I heard recently numbers is now available due to the covid lock down, not the mass manufactured display decorations mind you, still takes about the better part of a year and a half to complete one. Not really astronomical but still costs a pretty handful of dollars. 

~

I think pattern welding and folding originated somewhere around India or Afghanistan. 

It was refined in Asia in Lonquan and spread to Korea, then Japan from there. That I do know.

I remember watching that Ford Escort size power hammer and the ring it made. Cool stuff.

 

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26 minutes ago, Piney said:

I think pattern welding and folding originated somewhere around India or Afghanistan. 

Results are only as good as the principal material it is made of, the smith is just as great as the character it ends up being... 

I remember learning that not all meteorite sources are suited for what it was hoped to be, only those that fell from the region of, get this, Mars (huo xing) 

God of war... Funny that 

Addendum :

pattern welding and folding was said to have been accidentally discovered from reusing metals, in other words, recycling 

Not sure how true that is, not out of the realm of possibility, surely? 

~

Edited by SHaYap
Just a thought
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40 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

Results are only as good as the principal material it is made of, the smith is just as great as the character it ends up being... 

I remember learning that not all meteorite sources are suited for what it was hoped to be, only those that fell from the region of, get this, Mars (huo xing) 

God of war... Funny that 

Addendum :

pattern welding and folding was said to have been accidentally discovered from reusing metals, in other words, recycling 

Not sure how true that is, not out of the realm of possibility, surely? 

~

The Chinga was a planetary core and might be connected to the Hoba and a couple of North American meteors.

It fell less than 80,000 years ago probably blew apart and landed in a glacier.

It's rare cobalt content gives some pretty little blue lines in sword blades.

@Abramelin These 2 events could be connected with some rock art but neither were big enough to be worldwide disasters. 

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2 hours ago, Piney said:

I remember watching that Ford Escort size power hammer and the ring it made. Cool stuff.

sauron-the-one-ring-wallpaper-thumb.jpg

Edited by Thanos5150
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On 4/2/2023 at 11:06 PM, Thanos5150 said:

duplicate post

Edited by Antigonos
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On 4/2/2023 at 11:06 PM, Thanos5150 said:



None of the tools used in the 19th century are any different than what was used by the Romans or any other ancient culture for that matter. Pick-axe. Adze. Hammers. Chisels. Pry bars. Simple cranes. Rope. Ladders. Scaffolding. Pulleys. Sleds. Beasts of burden. Drills, lathes, saws. These are the tools that built our world of stone from the most ancient times to today. There is fundamentally ZERO difference from a 19th century quarry to a Roman or ancient Egyptian quarry.

We can see with our own eyes this what humans do just as they always have done.

The copper chisel sets of the First Dynasty shown in Emery for instance would be a perfect example of basic tools remaining unchanged for thousands of years. They look exactly like something you could pick up at your local hardware store today.

I would love to see a surviving example of a 13 ft granite cutting saw of the kind that John Romer estimated would weigh 800 pounds. I would think however that centuries of invasion, plundering and recycling would make that very unlikely to ever happen since they weren’t hidden away in tombs. It must have been quite a sight to see the Egyptians using them especially with bronze blades.

Edited by Antigonos
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1 hour ago, Antigonos said:

The copper chisel sets of the First Dynasty shown in Emery for instance would be a perfect example of basic tools remaining unchanged for thousands of years. They look exactly like something you could pick up at your local hardware store today.

I would love to see a surviving example of a 13 ft granite cutting saw of the kind that John Romer estimated would weigh 800 pounds. I would think however that centuries of invasion, plundering and recycling would make that very unlikely to ever happen since they weren’t hidden away in tombs. It must have been quite a sight to see the Egyptians using them especially with bronze blades.

QMFE:

There are numerous titles of various workers found in tombs directly related to working on the pyramids and the tombs that surround them: "Overseer of the Site of the Pyramid", "Overseer of the West Side of the Pyramid", "Overseer of the Craftsmen", "Inspector of Building Tombs", "Director of Building Tombs", ect, ect. As well as the gang names of the workers, "Friends of Khufu", "Drunkards of Menkaure" along with mason and architectural lines including even the numbering of certain blocks as to which order they are to be installed. Looking at the tombs of the 4th-6th Dynasty at Giza there are many many examples of references in one form or another to pyramids, which people can take this for what they will regarding the actual construction, but at the very least there is zero doubt these people worked on them.

To say there is not a "shred" of evidence, or amazingly worse still that AE of the OK couldn't even comprehend the pyramids were man-made [as one moron, a PhD no less, suggested at GHMB], is as bewilderingly stupid as it is ignorant.

Anyhoo, the expectation of what should be found regarding construction is as ignorant as it is unrealistic. For example "where are all the tools"? "Well, if we can't find them them they must be so old they disappeared" [so the fringe argument goes]. The question is why would we expect to find even one tool? The AE did not just drop their tools and leave each time they completed a pyramid for us to find 5,000yrs later - their culture continued uninterrupted from one pharaoh to the next for thousands of years and when pharaonic Egypt ended there were still people there all the way to the present day. Khufu inherited the tools from Sneferu. Djedefre from Khufu. Khafre from Djedefre. On and on it goes. Metal was very expensive to obtain and manufacture and property of the state- so we are to think they would just leave 800lb 13ft long saws in the desert after it was used and just go mine more metal to make another one? Of course not. That would be stupid. The metal would be used and reused and when it was no longer needed for stone cutting it would have been used for weapons or other needs.

The overwhelming majority of artifacts found in Egypt are from tombs-are we to expect an 800lb saw to be buried with someone? Buried with their favorite chisels and adzes? And in the off chance they were given the extensive looting why would we expect these things to still be there?

Another nonsensical meme is that because some erroneously believe there is "no evidence" of ramps therefore this means they did not use ramps of any kind, but again, why would we expect to find evidence of ramps and if so what evidence would we expect that to be? Obviously they would take the ramp down after construction so there would be no expectation of finding an actual ramp, though there are a few to be found at later sites, so that leaves us with what would they do with the material they made the ramp from which at Giza there are layers of detritus from ramps spread out on the plateau. This does not mean they built one big ramp to the top of course, but they did in fact use ramps to varying degrees in construction and when they were done they took them apart and dumped the infill. What we would also expect to find is the ground level footprint of these ramps of which these are found at all of the 4th Dynasty pyramid sites.

As far as writing is concerned, again, the overwhelming majority, almost exclusively what is left in the OK, is found in or related to tombs. Are we to expect schematics of pyramid building or quarry operations or diagrams of construction tools? Though it is fair to think they would have had to write these things down, obviously it makes little sense they would be found in one's tomb? Obviously not. The problem with our knowledge of this period is that we have found almost literally nothing written on the portable mediums, i.e. papyrus, that would have been the appropriate vehicle for this information. Papyrus rolls have been found, with no writing unfortunately, dating back to the 1st Dynasty and the 4th Dynasty Merrer diary, the oldest found written document on papyrus, shows an obvious long standing precedent of writing in such a manner. I am reminded of tales of 19th century explorers using pre-4th Dynasty reliefs from tombs made of wood as firewood for their excavation (looting) camps. I doubt any papyrus rolls would have fared much better over 5,000yrs of raping and pillaging these sites. So in reality, what we are missing are the perishable documents which more often than not would have been kept in central repositories which so far obviously none have been found and all things considered unfortunately may never be found.

This does not solve all the riddles of course, but we should at least be starting from a foundation of common sense and actual facts. Assuming one actually cares about the truth of course, which obviously does not apply to some here [GHMB].

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