Vivekananda on the nature of pleasure and pain

[Ajay0]

Interesting and insightful sayings by Swami Vivekananda on the pair of opposites of pleasure and pain....
 

https://vivekavani.com/swami-vivekananda-quotes-pleasure/
 

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All objective pleasure in the long run must bring pain, because of the fact of change or death.

We do not or cannot see the painful parts in objects, we are charmed with only the pleasurable portion; and, thus grasping the pleasurable, we unwittingly draw in the painful.

Every ounce of pleasure brings its pound of pain. It is the same energy that at one time manifests itself as pleasure, at another time as pain. As soon as one set of sensations stops, another begins.

The finer the organism, the higher the culture—the greater is the power to enjoy pleasure and the sharper are the pangs of pain.

An uncultured man loves the pleasures of the senses intensely; as he becomes cultured, he begins to love intellectual pleasures, and his sense-enjoyments become less and less. No man can enjoy a meal with the same gusto or pleasure as a dog or a wolf, but those pleasures which a man gets from intellectual experiences and achievements, the dog can never enjoy. At first, pleasure is in association with the lowest senses; but as soon as an animal reaches a higher plane of existence, the lower kind of pleasures becomes less intense. In human society, the nearer the man is to the animal, the stronger is his pleasure in the senses; and the higher and the more cultured the man is, the greater is his pleasure in intellectual and such other finer pursuits. So when a man gets even higher than the plane of the intellect, higher than that of mere thought, when he gets to the plane of spirituality and of divine inspiration, he finds there a state of bliss, compared with which all the pleasures of the senses, or even of the intellect, are as nothing.

All pleasures of the senses or even of the mind are evanescent but within ourselves is the one true unrelated pleasure, dependent upon nothing. It is perfectly free, it is bliss. The more our bliss is within, the more spiritual we are. The pleasure of the Self is what the world calls religion.

 

 

[Amita]

Complete works of this influential Swami:

https://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/complete_works.htm

 

[+Sherapy]

On 4/19/2023 at 11:03 PM, Ajay0 said:

Interesting and insightful sayings by Swami Vivekananda on the pair of opposites of pleasure and pain....
 

https://vivekavani.com/swami-vivekananda-quotes-pleasure/
 

 

Offerred with compassionate intent, Yet, in the real world people do find pleasure and happiness in external things, such as spending time with loved ones, pursuing hobbies, indulging in pleasurable experiences like eating wonderfully cooked food, or vacationing, doing work that is meaningful etc. etc. 

 

Of course, external things can and do bring temporary pleasure, and it while it is worthwhile making the distinction that fulfillment won’t only come from these things alone. It is possible to find a balance between seeking external pleasures and pursuing inner growth. One most certainly can enjoy the pleasure of external life while at the same time seeking knowledge, personal growth etc. One can experience a sense of happiness in a lot of ways. 

I think it is reasonable to add that Swami Vivekananda had a bias rooted in his own teachings and culture that seem to emphasize the impermanence and limitations of material pleasures over spiritual growth. 
 

An add to: modern research in Psychology and Neuroscience has some interesting insights too on this topic, cultivate gratitude, focus on relationships, engage in meaningful activities, prioritize sleep etc etc. These suggestions are rooted in empirical research and can be practiced by anyone regardless of their spiritual beliefs or spiritual traditions. The point is that there are many ways to enhance one’s well being. 
 

For me, Swami Vivekananda isn’t moving the needle much at all. 

[Piney]

14 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Offerred with compassionate intent, Yet, in the real world people do find pleasure and happiness in external things, such as spending time with loved ones, pursuing hobbies, indulging in pleasurable experiences like eating wonderfully cooked food, or vacationing, doing work that is meaningful etc. etc. 

 

Of course, external things can and do bring temporary pleasure, and it while it is worthwhile making the distinction that fulfillment won’t only come from these things alone. It is possible to find a balance between seeking external pleasures and pursuing inner growth. One most certainly can enjoy the pleasure of external life while at the same time seeking knowledge, personal growth etc. One can experience a sense of happiness in a lot of ways. 

I think it is reasonable to add that Swami Vivekananda had a bias rooted in his own teachings and culture that seem to emphasize the impermanence and limitations of material pleasures over spiritual growth. 
 

An add to: modern research in Psychology and Neuroscience has some interesting insights too on this topic, cultivate gratitude, focus on relationships, engage in meaningful activities, prioritize sleep etc etc. These suggestions are rooted in empirical research and can be practiced by anyone regardless of their spiritual beliefs or spiritual traditions. The point is that there are many ways to enhance one’s well being. 
 

For me, Swami Vivekananda isn’t moving the needle much at all. 

 His pleasure brings pain stance is basically telling the lower castes your better off without pleasure.

Pleasure isn't lasting. But pain comes on it's own. It's part of the balance of life and spiritual growth can be had with pleasure if kept in moderation. Pain and opposition is needed for growth though. Without it you would never mature or grow stronger.

[+Sherapy]

7 hours ago, Piney said:

 His pleasure brings pain stance is basically telling the lower castes your better off without pleasure.

Pleasure isn't lasting. But pain comes on it's own. It's part of the balance of life and spiritual growth can be had with pleasure if kept in moderation. Pain and opposition is needed for growth though. Without it you would never mature or grow stronger.

Thank you, Piney. 

[Ajay0]

8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

 

I think it is reasonable to add that Swami Vivekananda had a bias rooted in his own teachings and culture that seem to emphasize the impermanence and limitations of material pleasures over spiritual growth. 
 

  India had many kings and leaders like Janaka, Rama, Krishna, Guru Hargobind, Lahiri Mahasay who had both material and spiritual prosperity and emphasized the same. The Rajarshi or virtuous householder having both spiritual and material prosperity is considered superior to the monk.

I had created a thread about King Janaka here...

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/367025-when-king-janaka-taught-wisdom-to-a-young-monk/

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Offerred with compassionate intent, Yet, in the real world people do find pleasure and happiness in external things, such as spending time with loved ones, pursuing hobbies, indulging in pleasurable experiences like eating wonderfully cooked food, or vacationing, doing work that is meaningful etc. etc. 

 Vivekananda himself excelled in many extracurricular activities. He was trained in both vocal and instrumental music and was an accomplished musician,  was among the top martial artists of his city, was an excellent cook  who enjoyed preparing various dishes, and was a charismatic and witty orator and conversationalist who attracted many people all over the world to himself. 

 He advocated enjoying the pleasures of the world which is not opposed to virtuous conduct, and at the same time being detached from them due to their ephemeral nature.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_2/Work_and_its_Secret

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Attachment is the source of all our pleasures now. We are attached to our friends, to our relatives; we are attached to our intellectual and spiritual works; we are attached to external objects, so that we get pleasure from them. What, again, brings misery but this very attachment? We have to detach ourselves to earn joy. If only we had power to detach ourselves at will, there would not be any misery. That man alone will be able to get the best of nature, who, having the power of attaching himself to a thing with all his energy, has also the power to detach himself when he should do so. ~ Swami Vivekananda

 

 

Quote

Of course, external things can and do bring temporary pleasure, and it while it is worthwhile making the distinction that fulfillment won’t only come from these things alone. It is possible to find a balance between seeking external pleasures and pursuing inner growth. One most certainly can enjoy the pleasure of external life while at the same time seeking knowledge, personal growth etc. One can experience a sense of happiness in a lot of ways. 

 Yes, there is nothing wrong in pursuing sensory pleasures as long as it is in accordance with proper conduct and behavior. Issues arise when craving for sensory pleasures results in greed, lust and hatred leading to crimes like robbery, murder, rape, abuse and other criminal activities.

All crimes can be linked or traced to such strong uncontrolled desires in the form of cravings and aversions manifesting as vices like greed, lust and hatred.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Ajay0

[Piney]

"The pleasures of the world which are not opposed to virtuous conduct." Having attachments, but being able to give them up. 

It seems he enjoyed the same pleasures I do with cooking, books and martial arts.

I can agree with this but there is more to being interfaith. Helping with humanitarian aid whether giving food, clothing or medical attention. Helping with housing or employment. Walking and living among the poor and war torn while giving them someone to talk to with said aid.

 

[Ajay0]

14 hours ago, Piney said:

 His pleasure brings pain stance is basically telling the lower castes your better off without pleasure.

'Pleasure brings pain' stance is a universal principle that can be applied to any sensory object or sensory pleasure, situation or circumstance.

Also Siddhartha (Buddha) and Mahavira, the founders of Buddhism and Jainism, belonged to the upper warrior castes, but renounced their kingdoms to become monks in pursuit of wisdom and enlightenment. There are many such examples like them such as that of royal princes like Bodhidharma, Bahubali, Mahendra, Sanghamitra and so on.

The caste systm , similar to the feudal system in Europe, Japan and Korea, is of man-made origin based on the smritis or manmade laws and is not based on the Shrutis or vedic teachings that emphasize  equality and fraternity of all human beings. The caste system, like other feudal systems, had utility at a certain period in time, but has now become obsolete and irrevalent.

The Arya Samaj, a Hindu sect based on the Vedas alone and reject the man-made Smritis of later periods, have denounced casteism and other obsolete social systems.
 

Quote

Pleasure isn't lasting. But pain comes on it's own. It's part of the balance of life and spiritual growth can be had with pleasure if kept in moderation. Pain and opposition is needed for growth though. Without it you would never mature or grow stronger.

 Physical and mental strain and pain that comes in the gym or with proper and diligent understanding and performance of duties, are usually followed by growth, happiness and satisfaction. They are emphasized in Hinduism for attaining happiness and joy, and is considered to be part of Karma Yoga (yoga of action). The Bhagavad Gita itself deals with the concepts of duty and exertion.

The theme over here though is of psychological pain that comes with attachments or addictions to sensory pleasures.

Such psychological pain can help to bring wisdom to some about the impermanence and superficiality of sensory pleasures, and the need to pursue that of a lasting nature.

But such psychological pain can also breed mental and emotional disorders leading to behavioral aberrations and so on, sequencing  to social repercussions and even crimes of passion.

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Ajay0

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

'Pleasure brings pain' stance is a universal principle that can be applied to any sensory object or sensory pleasure, situation or circumstance.

Also Siddhartha (Buddha) and Mahavira, the founders of Buddhism and Jainism, belonged to the upper warrior castes, but renounced their kingdoms to become monks in pursuit of wisdom and enlightenment. There are many such examples like them such as that of royal princes like Bodhidharma, Bahubali, Mahendra, Sanghamitra and so on.

The caste systm , similar to the feudal system in Europe, Japan and Korea, is of man-made origin based on the smritis or manmade laws and is not based on the Shrutis or vedic teachings that emphasize  equality and fraternity of all human beings. The caste system, like other feudal systems, had utility at a certain period in time, but has now become obsolete and irrevalent.

The Arya Samaj, a Hindu sect based on the Vedas alone and reject the man-made Smritis of later periods, have denounced casteism and other obsolete social systems.
 

 Physical and mental strain and pain that comes in the gym or with proper and diligent understanding and performance of duties, are usually followed by growth, happiness and satisfaction. They are emphasized in Hinduism for attaining happiness and joy, and is considered to be part of Karma Yoga (yoga of action). The Bhagavad Gita itself deals with the concepts of duty and exertion.

The theme over here though is of psychological pain that comes with attachments or addictions to sensory pleasures.

Such psychological pain can help to bring wisdom to some about the impermanence and superficiality of sensory pleasures, and the need to pursue that of a lasting nature.

But such psychological pain can also breed mental and emotional disorders leading to behavioral aberrations and so on, sequencing  to social repercussions and even crimes of passion.

 

The psychological pain of a abusive addicted mother and a stepfather who hated me for being born and beat me daily made me strong.

My grandfather's woodjin teachings made me strong.

My Uncle Jimmy's martial arts training made me strong.

My training as a CAP Ranger Cadet and firefighter school2 made me strong.

And people who fail rather than grow stronger is just Natural Law at work.

[SHaYap]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

The psychological pain of a abusive addicted mother and a stepfather who hated me for being born and beat me daily made me strong.

My grandfather's woodjin teachings made me strong.

My Uncle Jimmy's martial arts training made me strong.

My training as a CAP Ranger Cadet and firefighter school2 made me strong.

And people who fail rather than grow stronger is just Natural Law at work.

No

You took all that and got stronger... 

None of that made you 

Maybe it helped, in the end, you became stronger than that that you were made 

~

[+Sherapy]

6 hours ago, Piney said:

The psychological pain of a abusive addicted mother and a stepfather who hated me for being born and beat me daily made me strong.

My grandfather's woodjin teachings made me strong.

My Uncle Jimmy's martial arts training made me strong.

My training as a CAP Ranger Cadet and firefighter school2 made me strong.

And people who fail rather than grow stronger is just Natural Law at work.

Piney, you have nurtured an amazing capacity with the good and bad examples along the way and turned adversity into strength. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Sherapy

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Piney, you have nurtured an amazing capacity with good examples along the way to turn adversity into strength. 

Because I'm hardheaded when someone tells me I can't do something. 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

51 minutes ago, Piney said:

Because I'm hardheaded when someone tells me I can't do something. 

 

Forged in fires of adversity and tempered in the waters of life, a boy may become a man, long before the legal definition.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Hammerclaw