Jesus. A man of peace?

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

But that wasn't the Romans if I remember right. 

Ben Pandira by the Maccabean King Alexander Jannaeus and Ben Stada by the Romans. 
 

cormac

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Ben Pandira by the Maccabean King Alexander Jannaeus and Ben Stada by the Romans. 
 

cormac

That's right Pandira was the leader of the Essenes.

[Abramelin]

14 hours ago, pellinore said:

Any idea when he is likely to return? I'm not being sarcastic, has anyone made any forecasts? I wouldn't want to miss it (okay, that bit is sarky).

Don't be TOO politically correct.

The Christians have murdered millions of people throughout their history.

===

And... there's this thread I started about Jesus' unknown childhood.

Can't find it right now, but it's about this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

When you compare what I started the thread with, with this link, there seems to be a pattern.

[Piney]

34 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Ben Pandira by the Maccabean King Alexander Jannaeus and Ben Stada by the Romans. 
 

cormac

Ben Stada in Lydda cir 200CE.....nope He doesn't even fit. That was long after Paul of Tarsus was smearing his ****.

[cormac mac airt]

11 minutes ago, Piney said:

Ben Stada in Lydda cir 200CE.....nope He doesn't even fit. That was long after Paul of Tarsus was smearing his ****.

Neither one “fits” per se as the earliest mention of JC placed him at the time of Tiberius and Pilate, there is no way to reconcile that with either of the other Jesus’. 
 

cormac

Edited May 18, 2023 by cormac mac airt

[Orphalesion]

No joke, I once had a discussion where I proposed that, based on the gospels Jesus had to have something like bipolar disorder. The guy had huge mood swings.
In general there's always this dichotomy in Christianity of Jesus being the prince of peace who helped the poor and sick and stuff like that and Jesus being the "dreadful King" who will return at the end of time to spank everyone with his hot, hard iron rod. Different sub-sections of Christianity and different time periods tend to emphasise one or the other and this is old, way older than the KJ translation of the Bible. For example, when preaching to the Germanic tribes missionaries felt that Jesus was to pacifistic to be palatable to their new audience, so they invented stories and version where Jesus and his disciples behave like Beowulf with (I think) Peter being called a "fast sword" and stuff like that.
So the emphasis on Jesus' peaceful persona was likely strong in that time period, as it often is in many branches of modern Christianity.
 

14 hours ago, pellinore said:

Any idea when he is likely to return? I'm not being sarcastic, has anyone made any forecasts? I wouldn't want to miss it (okay, that bit is sarky).

Well according to the Bible he said that the generation who saw him life and die (and, supposedly, get resurrected) would not pass away before he returned.
Seems he is just a little bit delayed.

On the other hand the Revelation of John (aka the Apocalypse of John) seems to promote the idea that nobody knows it except God the Father, so according to that version not even Jesus would know the time when he'll be sent back.

[Piney]

4 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

No joke, I once had a discussion where I proposed that, based on the gospels Jesus had to have something like bipolar disorder. The guy had huge mood swings.
In general there's always this dichotomy in Christianity of Jesus being the prince of peace who helped the poor and sick and stuff like that and Jesus being the "dreadful King" who will return at the end of time to spank everyone with his hot, hard iron rod. Different sub-sections of Christianity and different time periods tend to emphasise one or the other and this is old, way older than the KJ translation of the Bible. For example, when preaching to the Germanic tribes missionaries felt that Jesus was to pacifistic to be palatable to their new audience, so they invented stories and version where Jesus and his disciples behave like Beowulf with (I think) Peter being called a "fast sword" and stuff like that.
So the emphasis on Jesus' peaceful persona was likely strong in that time period, as it often is in many branches of modern Christianity.
 

Well according to the Bible he said that the generation who saw him life and die (and, supposedly, get resurrected) would not pass away before he returned.
Seems he is just a little bit delayed.

On the other hand the Revelation of John (aka the Apocalypse of John) seems to promote the idea that nobody knows it except God the Father, so according to that version not even Jesus would know the time when he'll be sent back.

Revelation was a Greco-Alexandrian satire attacking the mainstream church probably by a apocalyptic sect while plagiarizing Daniel.

The vengeful Jesus was a product of that idiotic American phenomenon known as the "Second Great Awakening" which was the greatest intellectual fart, intelligence drop and loss of brain cells in the history of the United States.

[cormac mac airt]

7 minutes ago, Piney said:

Revelation was a Greco-Alexandrian satire attacking the mainstream church probably by a apocalyptic sect while plagiarizing Daniel.

The vengeful Jesus was a product of that idiotic American phenomenon known as the "Second Great Awakening" which was the greatest intellectual fart, intelligence drop and loss of brain cells in the history of the United States.

Not entirely Piney, In the Gnostic Infancy Gospel of Thomas (2nd century AD) Jesus is portrayed as quite vengeful. 
 

cormac

[Piney]

19 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Not entirely Piney, In the Gnostic Infancy Gospel of Thomas (2nd century AD) Jesus is portrayed as quite vengeful. 
 

cormac

Hey! I was hollered at for calling it Gnostic, but it is around 200 years after the fact by a apocalyptic sect. So the violence is a given. 

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

Hey! I was hollered at for calling it Gnostic, but it is around 200 years after the fact by a apocalyptic sect. So the violence is a given. 

Considering there is NOTHING contemporarily written about, OR BY, Jesus there’s really no way of knowing his disposition. Everything relies on hear-say. 

cormac

Edited May 18, 2023 by cormac mac airt

[Orphalesion]

51 minutes ago, Piney said:

Revelation was a Greco-Alexandrian satire attacking the mainstream church probably by a apocalyptic sect while plagiarizing Daniel.

The vengeful Jesus was a product of that idiotic American phenomenon known as the "Second Great Awakening" which was the greatest intellectual fart, intelligence drop and loss of brain cells in the history of the United States.

Interesting I always red the Revelation of John as an allegory of the persecution of Christianity in the late pagan empire. Of course both these interpretations just show what Revelations/Apocalypses generally really are...veiled allegories, or if you will, satire.

On the second part of your post; while I agree that certain sects in American Christianity seem to place a lot of emphasis on the vengeful interpretation of Jesus, it IS older than that. As I said, he was called a "Dreadful King" in parts of Medieval and Renaissance Europe long before the US where even a thing and there are parts of the Bible where he's vengeful, angry or just plain grumpy and talks about brining "the sword not peace" and things like that. Of course I think in earlier times and the stricter parts of European Christianity the emphasis of his vengeance is more about him being a stern and unforgiving judge at the end of the world rather than a "conqueror drenched in blood" as he was described earlier in this thread, I think that picture might be more related to that "Second Great Awakening".

[Will Due]

 

One thing's for sure, probably long after all of us have left the planet, we're going to find out if it's true, what they've said he is.

Or that he is a "man of peace".

 

 

[cormac mac airt]

When we’re all dead nobody is going to be finding out anything, since there’s no verifiable evidence that consciousness exists after death. 
 

cormac

[SHaYap]

'man' of Peace... 

Demoted from Prince of Peace... 

There was a time when little things like that meant Town Square fired matyrs to pray for deliverance 

~

[cormac mac airt]

27 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

'man' of Peace... 

Demoted from Prince of Peace... 

There was a time when little things like that meant Town Square fired matyrs to pray for deliverance 

~

Or even ‘Zombie/Martyr of Peace’.

cormac

[Ajay0]

On 5/18/2023 at 12:24 AM, Abramelin said:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070221200145/http://www.nobeliefs.com/jesus.htm

I think the next quotes are worthy of a discussion.

What do yóu think?

 

Quote:

Christians have held the main character of the New Testament, Jesus the Christ, in high esteem for centuries. Even many who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus think that he gave an admirable example of moral living. Although we have no evidence that the Biblical Jesus ever existed, we can still examine the words of the Bible to extract the wisdom and morality of this character, regardless of whether he actually lived or not.

Does the Biblical Jesus merit the honor bestowed upon him? Unfortunately, preachers, ministers, and clergymen have given us biased, one-sided stories, emphasizing and inflating what they see as positive while subverting or ignoring the negative. Biblical scholarship of the last hundred years has not reached the common man. Instead, we see political ministers and televangelists making absurd biblical claims without anyone calling them accountable. Although over 90 percent of households in America own a Bible, it usually goes unread, or at best sanitized or bowdlerized to what people want it to say.

Unbeknownst to many Christians, many times the Gospels of the New Testament portray Jesus as vengeful, demeaning, intolerant, and hypocritical. In one section Jesus calls for love of enemies, yet in another to slay them. He tells others to not use hurtful names, yet he called others fools, dogs, and vipers. He calls for honoring parents in one verse, yet demands hate toward family members in another. Some of Jesus' words against his adversaries depict what some would call anti-Semitism. Indeed, the verses of the New Testament have fueled the flames of anti-Jewishness for centuries.

The following gives a brief look at the Biblical evidence about the claims of Jesus with quotes from the King James bible (the most used bible in the world). The verses contain links to an online Bible where it provides the reader with the entire chapter, for viewing the full context.

I think the issue is with the individual interpretation of the bible which can vary as per one's conditioning and background. The likes of  enlightened sages and saintly scholars like Ramana Maharshi and S.Radhakrishnan had stated that differences in mental purity plays a role in the varied interpretations of the scripture.

Quote

‘According to the purity of the mind the same teaching reflects in different ways’.~ Ramana Maharshi

The Divine reveals itself to men within the framework of their intimate prejudices. ~ Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Ajay0

[Crazy Horse]

10 hours ago, Piney said:

In Matthew and Luke it was a outright plagiarism of the Greco-Alexandrian version of Jakata Tales and the Edicts of Ashoka.

So sorry. Wasn't him.

It use to be when people didn't understand how nature worked. The personification of nature and human nature served as warnings on how to treat a person, place or thing. But we grew past that.

Happened more often than not taking a person and giving them a false story. 

Again...

Whatever is the truth about Him, and whatever is made-up, its all good.

Because it is His message of love, for GOD, for neighbour, for self, and that by practicing these things, one shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and even greater things than His, shall you do.

Its a promise of abundance, of peace (and eternal life) where one only needs to live a life of genuine love and compassion for all beings.

 

[Crazy Horse]

10 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Crazy Horse

But,..but true is true even if it is hidden it doesn't need proof to be true. Isn't that your arguement earlier? Why wouldn't you like the whole truth now before you model your life after an illusion,?

Because, by living the teachings of Christ, the Truth is revealed.

[Crazy Horse]

10 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

That’s bullscheisse if you keep attributing it TO HIM. A lie is still a lie no matter how much smoke you blow. 
 

Yeshua Ben Yosef surely existed but Yeshua Ha Mashiach, not likely. 
 

cormac

From my perspective, they were the same person, man/God.

But whatever the truth/Truth actually is, I know one thing for sure, that love is the answer.

 

[Crazy Horse]

5 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

When we’re all dead nobody is going to be finding out anything, since there’s no verifiable evidence that consciousness exists after death. 
 

cormac

Actually there is a ton of evidence.

NDEs, OBEs, past life remembrances, remote viewing and the psychic ability to find missing people..

All point to the fact that consciousness is non-local to the brain.

Which suggests that consciousness does, actually go-on after the death of the physical body.

[eight bits]

3 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Actually there is a ton of evidence.

Mustn't confuse evidence with wishful thinking, grasshopper.

On some other points arising:

About the Talmudic Jesuses (and the related Toledot Yeshu material): They are a mess to sort out. Some people think that ben Stada and ben Pandira are actually two strands of legends both referring to the same figure, and that one figure may be the Christian version of Jesus being lampooned by Jewish critics. If there are insinuations that "Jews know the real story of Jesus" in the sense that Jesus was not so great (e.g. Celsus in the 2nd century wrote along those lines), there are also Christian versions were "Jews know the real story of Jesus" and refuse to admit how great he was (Epiphanius tells one of those in the 4th century).

I despair of finding anything of historical value about the reputed founder of Christianity in all of that. I don't even think we can confidently sort out "who's who" within the stories.

On warrior Jesus: I don't think the bratty punk kid Jesus of the infancy gospels compares with what @and-then was on about. I also think @Piney is close to the mark with the Second Great Awakening incubation of a still-living American image of Killer Jesus.

I think Exhibt A is The Battle Hymn of the Republic, still widely performed today in the US, and composed in the first year of the Civil War (the pause between the Second and Third Great Awakenings). Leaving out the Glory, Glory, Halleuia chorus, Here are all six Julia Ward Howe verses. This is and-then's Jesus, IMO:
 

Quote

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps,
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps:
His day is marching on.

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal";
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel,
Since God is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! Be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me.
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is Wisdom to the mighty, He is Succour to the brave,
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of Time His slave,
Our God is marching on.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by eight bits

[Piney]

18 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Mustn't confuse evidence with wishful thinking, grasshopper.

On some other points arising:

About the Talmudic Jesuses (and the related Toledot Yeshu material): They are a mess to sort out. Some people think that ben Stada and ben Pandira are actually two strands of legends both referring to the same figure, and that one figure may be the Christian version of Jesus being lampooned by Jewish critics. If there are insinuations that "Jews know the real story of Jesus" in the sense that Jesus was not so great (e.g. Celsus in the 2nd century wrote along those lines), there are also Christian versions were "Jews know the real story of Jesus" and refuse to admit how great he was (Epiphanius tells one of those in the 4th century).

I despair of finding anything of historical value about the reputed founder of Christianity in all of that. I don't even think we can confidently sort out "who's who" within the stories.

On warrior Jesus: I don't think the bratty punk kid Jesus of the infancy gospels compares with what @and-then was on about. I also think @Piney is close to the mark with the Second Great Awakening incubation of a still-living American image of Killer Jesus.

I think Exhibt A is The Battle Hymn of the Republic, still widely performed today in the US, and composed in the first year of the Civil War (the pause between the Second and Third Great Awakenings). Leaving out the Glory, Glory, Halleuia chorus, Here are all six Julia Ward Howe verses. This is and-then's Jesus, IMO:
 

The Talmudic Jesuses are a mess to sort out because a lot of Jewish writings suffered forced destruction by the Catholic Church.

The Toledot Yeshu is certainly a lampoon, but I don't think there is but a smattering of history in it.

Rabbi Rachel's father had originally taught that Stada and Panderia were the same and I always wanted to bring it up to her since the historical Jesus discussions started but wind up spending the time playing soccer with her kids. 

[+Hammerclaw]

So much ado about a figure for which no extant, contemporaneous historical record exists and not a single word written by his own hand. One must always keep focus on the fact the story doesn't begin with his life, but decades later with documents, all most entirely of a religious nature, after the founding of a cult based on his life. There's not a single scrap of the real Jesus in the entire liturgy of the Church. not a single literary strand of DNA that can be directly attributed to him. We do not perceive him as through a glass darkly. THERE IS NO GLASS, only a blank wall on which a multitude have written.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[Piney]

51 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Mustn't confuse evidence with wishful thinking, grasshopper.

On some other points arising:

About the Talmudic Jesuses (and the related Toledot Yeshu material): They are a mess to sort out. Some people think that ben Stada and ben Pandira are actually two strands of legends both referring to the same figure, and that one figure may be the Christian version of Jesus being lampooned by Jewish critics. If there are insinuations that "Jews know the real story of Jesus" in the sense that Jesus was not so great (e.g. Celsus in the 2nd century wrote along those lines), there are also Christian versions were "Jews know the real story of Jesus" and refuse to admit how great he was (Epiphanius tells one of those in the 4th century).

I despair of finding anything of historical value about the reputed founder of Christianity in all of that. I don't even think we can confidently sort out "who's who" within the stories.

On warrior Jesus: I don't think the bratty punk kid Jesus of the infancy gospels compares with what @and-then was on about. I also think @Piney is close to the mark with the Second Great Awakening incubation of a still-living American image of Killer Jesus.

I think Exhibt A is The Battle Hymn of the Republic, still widely performed today in the US, and composed in the first year of the Civil War (the pause between the Second and Third Great Awakenings). Leaving out the Glory, Glory, Halleuia chorus, Here are all six Julia Ward Howe verses. This is and-then's Jesus, IMO:
 

And all that Daniel crap started with Russell, Miller and friends giving birth to the NIV.

[Alchopwn]

On 5/18/2023 at 4:54 AM, Abramelin said:

Unbeknownst to many Christians, many times the Gospels of the New Testament portray Jesus as vengeful, demeaning, intolerant, and hypocritical. In one section Jesus calls for love of enemies, yet in another to slay them. He tells others to not use hurtful names, yet he called others fools, dogs, and vipers. He calls for honoring parents in one verse, yet demands hate toward family members in another. Some of Jesus' words against his adversaries depict what some would call anti-Semitism. Indeed, the verses of the New Testament have fueled the flames of anti-Jewishness for centuries.

This is why it is so important to actually read the Bible critically.  Jesus is depicted as a very bad person.