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Bakhmut apparently has fallen


Unusual Tournament

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5 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Moral is sky high, but the cost of taking fortress Bakhmut is equally astronomical. Keeping your soldiers alive is just as important as killing the enemy. That goes for both sides

Thats just it though, the Russians haven`t lost many taking the city.

Thats why its been so slow. Rather than surge in and loose a load of men they have taken their time and used artillery to blow their opponents to bits.

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2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Seems like cards on the table and no one has left their seat, dealer deal the next hand.

This guy was claiming 2 days back that the Russians had withdrawn.

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1 hour ago, CrimsonKing said:

Just read an article earlier,hell can't remember the site,the headline read "Russia learning on battlefield" :lol:

If a country invades another country,many countries would already have been "learned/trained" before invading...it's called strategy... that's the biggest stunner about the world's 2nd most powerful military.

 

As Sun Tzu said:  "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."

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Just now, Alchopwn said:

As Sun Tzu said:  "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."

Crazy enough...I had in mind"Art of War" when making that post :lol: :tu:

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4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

You believe Russian propaganda, and I do not. 

That's commendable of you, I'm sure.  You may be better connected, I'll take your word for that but you have no idea "what I believe".  My sin in this conflict is to not care which of two very corrupt regimes comes out on top.  I will believe the reports when hell freezes over.  Post-truth, post-factual is our reality now.  Those who pontificate about their knowledge of the truth of this conflict, impress me not at all.  All I know for sure is that none of them are fighting, suffering, and dying while they cheer for all of the above like it was some kind of sporting event.  

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1 hour ago, and-then said:

That's commendable of you, I'm sure.  You may be better connected, I'll take your word for that but you have no idea "what I believe".  My sin in this conflict is to not care which of two very corrupt regimes comes out on top.  I will believe the reports when hell freezes over.  Post-truth, post-factual is our reality now.  Those who pontificate about their knowledge of the truth of this conflict, impress me not at all.  All I know for sure is that none of them are fighting, suffering, and dying while they cheer for all of the above like it was some kind of sporting event.  

Would you be so peaceful if, say, China would invade USA? Put down weapons and surrender, right?

 

Edit to add: D. Prager (whether you like him or not) makes good points

 

Edited by bmk1245
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10 hours ago, and-then said:

You do realize that there are sources out there saying EXACTLY the opposite has happened, right?  I don't claim to know which one is correct because I think nothing in media is trustworthy any longer.  I'd be more inclined to trust the numbers coming out of Ukraine's officials if they even tried to quantify their losses.  But hey, that's just me.  I'm not on team Russia or team Ukraine.  I'd just like for the slaughter to end before we wind up emptying all of our weapon's storages.

I have been following this conflict from day dot and I can honestly say that as a westerner I’m very disappointed with our supposed “free and impartial “ press. Russian sources have generally been more accurate. 
 

Like you until Ukraine puts its loses on the record I’m skeptical of everything they say. To be fair, Russia has been very quiet also about loses thou general strikes and engagements are nearing the mark. 
 

Propaganda is one thing but outright deception another

Edited by Unusual Tournament
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2 hours ago, and-then said:

Post-truth, post-factual is our reality now.  

That's your reality, not mine.

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2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

As Sun Tzu said:  "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."

Hardly relevant to this discussion but ifs it’s a bit of philosophising you want to read then try this … wars like anything else need to have a clear objective and time frame otherwise your enemy grows slowly stronger and wiser. 
 

America needs to shut this war down to a WW1 stalemate and let sanctions and isolation run its course otherwise the Russians will just wear the Ukrainians down

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7 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Hardly relevant to this discussion but ifs it’s a bit of philosophising you want to read then try this … wars like anything else need to have a clear objective and time frame otherwise your enemy grows slowly stronger and wiser. 
 

America needs to shut this war down to a WW1 stalemate and let sanctions and isolation run its course otherwise the Russians will just wear the Ukrainians down

Reminder

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'

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47 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

America needs to shut this war down to a WW1 stalemate and let sanctions and isolation run its course otherwise the Russians will just wear the Ukrainians down

I disagree, and I think the following months will prove me, and those from whom I am taking my info, to be correct.  Russia is presently appallingly weak.  The notion that giving them time will do anything other than let them grow in strength is incorrect.  Russia has lost plenty of equipment of all sorts and huge numbers of dead and injured, such that they are now in their 3rd mobilization, though they will pretend they have only had 1.  What Putin wants is a cease-fire so he can regroup for another attack.  He must not be given that opportunity.  Ukraine has plenty of fine new equipment for driving the genocidal scum from their lands, and plenty of well trained troops for the job too.  When the ground is dry and the time is right(and not before), they will attack.  The benefit will be seeing a huge evil empire crumble, and release even more of its unwilling subjects from its corrupt and incompetent torment.

Edited by Alchopwn
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1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

I disagree, and I think the following months will prove me, and those from whom I am taking my info, to be correct.  Russia is presently appallingly weak.  The notion that giving them time will do anything other than let them grow in strength is incorrect.  Russia has lost plenty of equipment of all sorts and huge numbers of dead and injured, such that they are now in their 3rd mobilization, though they will pretend they have only had 1.  What Putin wants is a cease-fire so he can regroup for another attack.  He must not be given that opportunity.  Ukraine has plenty of fine new equipment for driving the genocidal scum from their lands, and plenty of well trained troops for the job too.  When the ground is dry and the time is right(and not before), they will attack.  The benefit will be seeing a huge evil empire crumble, and release even more of its unwilling subjects from its corrupt and incompetent torment.

Putin is not going anywhere.

Ukraine and its Western backers just need to fence him into the areas he occupies, pressure his dwindling allies, and let his own people turn on him. Anything else is just pure folly

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2 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

Reminder

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'

Germany was invaded in order for it to capitulate. Try doing that with Russia 

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According to Belgorod regional officials, the FoRL and RVC have fully or partially captured four settlements in Belgorod Oblast: Kozinka, Glotovo, Gora-Podol and Graivoron. An area larger than the entirety of Bakhmut taken in 6 hours.

 

 

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On 5/22/2023 at 4:11 AM, Unusual Tournament said:

Putin is not going anywhere.

Ukraine and its Western backers just need to fence him into the areas he occupies, pressure his dwindling allies, and let his own people turn on him. Anything else is just pure folly

He'll be taken down by his own people.  It's how you get promoted in Russia. Prove me wrong. 

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On 5/22/2023 at 4:12 AM, Unusual Tournament said:

Germany was invaded in order for it to capitulate. Try doing that with Russia 

Don't have to. Russia is doing it to themselves. Once it's weak enough, all hells going to break loose.

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7 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

Don't have to. Russia is doing it to themselves. Once it's weak enough, all hells going to break loose.

Yes, the Ukrainians are very lucky the Russians are self destructing 

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On 5/22/2023 at 10:12 AM, Alchopwn said:

I disagree, and I think the following months will prove me, and those from whom I am taking my info, to be correct.  Russia is presently appallingly weak.  The notion that giving them time will do anything other than let them grow in strength is incorrect.  Russia has lost plenty of equipment of all sorts and huge numbers of dead and injured, such that they are now in their 3rd mobilization, though they will pretend they have only had 1.  What Putin wants is a cease-fire so he can regroup for another attack.  He must not be given that opportunity.  Ukraine has plenty of fine new equipment for driving the genocidal scum from their lands, and plenty of well trained troops for the job too.  When the ground is dry and the time is right(and not before), they will attack.  The benefit will be seeing a huge evil empire crumble, and release even more of its unwilling subjects from its corrupt and incompetent torment.

With 20 tanks western tanks?

They might stand a chance if they got 2000 and 500 F-16.

Edited by Electric Scooter
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3 hours ago, Electric Scooter said:

With 20 tanks western tanks?

They might stand a chance if they got 2000 and 500 F-16.

I think you will find that the Ukranians have been very tight lipped about how many Leopards they have received.  They have been promised about 150, and presently Russia can't put that many modern tanks in the field.  Russia is demothballing rusted out T54s that are older than me.

As to needing 500 F16s, nope.  The Russians are barely fielding an airforce these days and they have lost the bulk of their best gear.  The Russians are scared to put planes up, and most of them are due for complete overhauls that can't be performed due to lack of parts.

Similarly, the Russian submarine fleet may be mothballed due to lack of parts.  Them sanctions man.

Plus the Russians have arrested their 3 top missile designers for sabotage and treason because the Kinzhal doesn't behave as advertised.  The Patriot System is performing far better than Russia expected.

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5 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I think you will find that the Ukranians have been very tight lipped about how many Leopards they have received.  They have been promised about 150, and presently Russia can't put that many modern tanks in the field.  Russia is demothballing rusted out T54s that are older than me.

As to needing 500 F16s, nope.  The Russians are barely fielding an airforce these days and they have lost the bulk of their best gear.  The Russians are scared to put planes up, and most of them are due for complete overhauls that can't be performed due to lack of parts.

Similarly, the Russian submarine fleet may be mothballed due to lack of parts.  Them sanctions man.

Plus the Russians have arrested their 3 top missile designers for sabotage and treason because the Kinzhal doesn't behave as advertised.  The Patriot System is performing far better than Russia expected.

I can understand Russia using its old stuff when its opponent has very few tanks of its own to counter them.

The Leopard tanks gifted by Poland to Ukraine are first generation ones. As in, quite old and outdated. They were originally gifted to Poland by Germany to clear out some of its old mothballed stuff. It has also only been given enough tanks in total for one small tank battalion which is not going to have an significant impact on the conflict. It would need a huge tank surge to make any real impact because Russia soldiers do have RPGs and plenty of tanks of their own.

The Russians have a huge and fully capable air force. Yes, most of it isn`t being used and hasn`t been used at any point in the conflict. I think you need to be careful of negative idealisation of the Russian military. There is a lot of propaganda going around about how great Ukraine is and how bad Russia is, and wishful thinking without actual evidence to back it up.

I did some research the other day because it didn`t seem right to me that a country like Russia would have microchip shortages for its military. Why? Well, what type of military buys in chips for its forces? No one really knows whats in a chip so using overseas manufactured ones puts all assets using them at risk. What I found is the Russian military industrial complex like many other countries has its own chip manufacturer for its armed forces.

Except one counter attack when Russia left its right flank poorly manned, the conflict hasn`t gone the way that would suggest Ukraine is strong. It looks to me like they have worked with NATO and gained enough NATO equipment, training, and real-time intelligence, to only be able to stabilise their front line. And we have yet to hear how many men it has cost them to do that from a neutral qualified source.

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7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I think you will find that the Ukranians have been very tight lipped about how many Leopards they have received.  They have been promised about 150, and presently Russia can't put that many modern tanks in the field.  Russia is demothballing rusted out T54s that are older than me.

As to needing 500 F16s, nope.  The Russians are barely fielding an airforce these days and they have lost the bulk of their best gear.  The Russians are scared to put planes up, and most of them are due for complete overhauls that can't be performed due to lack of parts.

Similarly, the Russian submarine fleet may be mothballed due to lack of parts.  Them sanctions man.

Plus the Russians have arrested their 3 top missile designers for sabotage and treason because the Kinzhal doesn't behave as advertised.  The Patriot System is performing far better than Russia expected.

This is no longer a MBT war, it’s an artillery battle. Tanks won’t help Ukraine anymore than it did Russia. 
 

Tanks are a small component of an attacking force anyway. Russia is producing over 100 T90’s a month. They have nothing to fear from the Leopards and Challengers.

Russia has over 900 fighters and less than 70 are allocated to the war in Ukraine. F-16’s will help Ukraine deliver smart ordnance but they won’t be able to challenge Russian fighters flying in Russian airspace.

Basically Ukraine is fighting with American money. They will do as told

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