Was this artifact technologically designed and manufactured?

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, cladking said:

Precision can not be achieved without precise tools and precision measurements.  If this is real, and there's no reason to believe it isn't, then we are wrong about those who made it.

Measurable precision is easy to achieve on a lathe or a potter's wheel. A first grader with a pencil and taut string can draw a perfect circle. The only thing significant about this urn is the ignorance of its observers.

[Tatetopa]

It would be interesting to know if before any claims to perfection were made about the object  it was scanned or measured on a CMM (coordinate measurement machine).   I would be especially interested in that area between the lugs.  I think @Kenemet proposed a possibly a pretty good method for working that area. 

 

 

 

[cladking]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Measurable precision is easy to achieve on a lathe or a potter's wheel. A first grader with a pencil and taut string can draw a perfect circle. The only thing significant about this urn is the ignorance of its observers.

You couldn't tell the circle was perfect without precision measuring equipment.  It would be far from perfect. 

[Dejarma]

so there may have been some kinda strange weird & wonderful influence here (though probably not, as deep down we know )

 

who cares? so fekin what?

[+Hammerclaw]

57 minutes ago, cladking said:

You couldn't tell the circle was perfect without precision measuring equipment.  It would be far from perfect. 

Not if perfectly executed. It's not hard--have you ever tried? You, obviously, have no experience crafting anything which means you don't know what you are talking about. You're just addicted to believing anything fantastical.

[Piney]

5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

es la verdad!

In vino veritas.

[Piney]

8 hours ago, OverSword said:

Yeah, but look at this.  Starting and stopping this to make two perfectly symmetrical handles would be tough.  How do you build the momentum from one bump to the other?

Let's just say it's more work that I think would be worth the finished product, so I think we're missing something.

Lasers.

[Dynamo X]

I found this interesting because I'm an Engineer.  If these measurements are as accureate as they are saying, even with todays equipment, it would be extremely difficult to produce one of these things, let alone many.  Yes it could be done using modern CNC equipment used by highly skilled pro's etc, but to acheive this by hand, to this accuracy and on the lathes of the time would be impossible IMHO. More research needs to be done and could well be worth the effort, money and time invested. The problem that I can see is that the findings, if confirmed as correct, may raise a few too many awkward questions for some.

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Dynamo X said:

I found this interesting because I'm an Engineer.  If these measurements are as accureate as they are saying, even with todays equipment, it would be extremely difficult to produce one of these things, let alone many.  Yes it could be done using modern CNC equipment used by highly skilled pro's etc, but to acheive this by hand, to this accuracy and on the lathes of the time would be impossible IMHO. More research needs to be done and could well be worth the effort, money and time invested. The problem that I can see is that the findings, if confirmed as correct, may raise a few too many awkward questions for some.

I carve wood and stone, know other carvers and you can "eyeball" fairly close if you have "The Eye". It's also about being anal about perfection.

And running a CNC doesn't take a "highly skilled pro". A CNC does all the math for you. You just punch in the design or trace the part you are copying.

I use a friend's old manual Bridgeport horizontal mill to fabricate parts for my 80s John Deeres and that doesn't take much more than the ability to read a rule and use a dial indicator. I also "freehand" hone my cylinder walls and ports in the engines I rebuilt and haven't thrown a piston or valve yet. 

Your making a mountain out of nothing.......but then again all the civil engineers I had to deal with on land restoration jobs overthink just as much as you do.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Piney

[Thanos5150]

Me:

From a post on this very subject [AE stone vases] from 2016:
 

Quote

You say this yet do not even understand what is being said. If you all are going to argue about this stuff you at least want to understand what the argument is. There is no doubt the AE made stone vessels similar to those found in early dynastic times which they are still doing today:
Vase "factory":

HERE

Quite a space age tool that guy is using which kind of reminds one of this:



YouTube video how they do it.
Another.



I bought one from one of these very roadside factories. Not exactly lasers and CNC machines.

Therefore, the question is why is it so sophisticated at the beginning of the archaic Dynastic period, why is the quality largely superior to what came after the OK, and what materials were their tools made of that allowed them to fabricate the harder stone like diorite. I would also say that though the methods are relatively simple to make similar vessels, Petrie is of course correct to note the makers of these earlier stone vessels used a lathe which gives a more "machined" quality than hand made.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Antigonos]

26 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

 

Therefore, the question is why is it so sophisticated at the beginning of the archaic Dynastic period, why is the quality largely superior to what came after the OK, and what materials were their tools made of that allowed them to fabricate the harder stone like diorite. I would also say that though the methods are relatively simple to make similar vessels, Petrie is of course correct to note the makers of these earlier stone vessels used a lathe which gives a more "machined" quality than hand made.

A question that doesn’t get the attention it deserves and one of many that are still unanswered about the archaic Egyptian dynastic period. It is vast in scope and was far more sophisticated than is generally acknowledged. 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Antigonos

[cladking]

9 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You, obviously, have no experience crafting anything which means you don't know what you are talking about. You're just addicted to believing anything fantastical.

I build systems.  I also build most of their component parts. I rarely build anything not associated with these systems and when I do it's rarely intended to look good but I also do fabricate such things.  One of my last projects I call a "corner table stool ladder".  Just because something looks perfect doesn't mean it can stand up to a micrometer.  Frequently when i have a little error that might show whether it's building a ditch or furniture I simply eyeball it and make another "error" to hide it.  It can't be perfect but it can look right.  

[Thanos5150]

14 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

A question that doesn’t get the attention it deserves and one of many that are still unanswered about the archaic Egyptian dynastic period. It is vast in scope and was far more sophisticated than is generally acknowledged. 

Indeed.

More:

The early DE since the beginnings of Dynastic Egypt were master carpenters and wood workers. All of the foundations of modern carpentry are found there at an unusually high level-mortise and tenon, rebate, half lap, dovetail jointing etc . An overlooked mystery in my opinion is where did this skill come from and apparently develop to such a high level so abruptly. They were also skilled in using lumber for architecture with many 1st Dynasty mastabas employing large amounts of wood, even later for pyramids, for formwork, framework and structural support. Regardless, if they can master woodworking for ship building, furniture, and the like-the only limit when turning these skills to an industrial purpose, say like building simple trusses, formwork, lifting devices, drill housing, lathes, etc i.e simple machines would be their imagination. 

The DE were not only master rope makers as well, like their carpentry unparalleled in the ancient world, but also at employing rope in unique technical applications, like Khufu's ship for example:

As complex as the architecture is and stupefying the labor and logistics, a science unto itself, there is no reason to create this impossible paradox by insisting the DE used the most primitive tools and materials possible to do this work when clearly they were capable of so much more. 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What is required to make these artifacts so "precise", or even not so precise, from this harder material in particular is not so much the tools but the ability to hold them in fixed positions when applying force. Given their skills at carpentry it is logical to assume they could make whatever was required to accomplish this task. 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

32 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Indeed.

More:

The early DE since the beginnings of Dynastic Egypt were master carpenters and wood workers. All of the foundations of modern carpentry are found there at an unusually high level-mortise and tenon, rebate, half lap, dovetail jointing etc . An overlooked mystery in my opinion is where did this skill come from and apparently develop to such a high level so abruptly. They were also skilled in using lumber for architecture with many 1st Dynasty mastabas employing large amounts of wood, even later for pyramids, for formwork, framework and structural support. Regardless, if they can master woodworking for ship building, furniture, and the like-the only limit when turning these skills to an industrial purpose, say like building simple trusses, formwork, lifting devices, drill housing, lathes, etc i.e simple machines would be their imagination. 

The DE were not only master rope makers as well, like their carpentry unparalleled in the ancient world, but also at employing rope in unique technical applications, like Khufu's ship for example:

As complex as the architecture is and stupefying the labor and logistics, a science unto itself, there is no reason to create this impossible paradox by insisting the DE used the most primitive tools and materials possible to do this work when clearly they were capable of so much more. 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What is required to make these artifacts so "precise", or even not so precise, from this harder material in particular is not so much the tools but the ability to hold them in fixed positions when applying force. Given their skills at carpentry it is logical to assume they could make whatever was required to accomplish this task. 

Also what comes to mind is the notion the DE did not have the wheel. 2nd Dynasty potter's wheel:

No different than the same found in the 4th Dynasty:

5th Dynasty using this wheel:

Which they also used simple bearings for various tasks which such a wheel would have sat on. 

The 1st Dynasty tomb of Hemaka, dozens of disks were found with holes in their centers i.e. made to rotate on an axis:

As an aside, an unused roll of Papyrus was found in Hemaka's tomb as well. 

Not to mention many other wheel like artifacts made to rotate on an axis, the most famous of course being the 1st Dynasty Disk of Shabu:

It is easy to imagine the DE had the ability to build whatever simple machines required to make the stone ware. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Dynamo X]

6 hours ago, Piney said:

I carve wood and stone, know other carvers and you can "eyeball" fairly close if you have "The Eye". It's also about being anal about perfection.

And running a CNC doesn't take a "highly skilled pro". A CNC does all the math for you. You just punch in the design or trace the part you are copying.

I use a friend's old manual Bridgeport horizontal mill to fabricate parts for my 80s John Deeres and that doesn't take much more than the ability to read a rule and use a dial indicator. I also "freehand" hone my cylinder walls and ports in the engines I rebuilt and haven't thrown a piston or valve yet. 

Your making a mountain out of nothing.......but then again all the civil engineers I had to deal with on land restoration jobs overthink just as much as you do.

 

 

Thats all well and good, but who just "punched in" this design thousands of years ago lol. And believe me, CNC machines do take highly skilled operatives to work to the tolerances described in the article. Thats not overthinking anything. Many simpler parts that are manufactured by these machines these days are scrapped etc. usually due to operator error.  I suppose they must punch in the wrong info eh!

[Piney]

58 minutes ago, Dynamo X said:

Thats all well and good, but who just "punched in" this design thousands of years ago lol. And believe me, CNC machines do take highly skilled operatives to work to the tolerances described in the article. Thats not overthinking anything. Many simpler parts that are manufactured by these machines these days are scrapped etc. usually due to operator error.  I suppose they must punch in the wrong info eh!

Those tolerances aren't that high and you never met some of the EEO-VP hired machinists at the Naval Weapons Development Center.

You also never saw a Koens-Crispin spearthrower weight (bannerstone) some of which have perfect holes, perfect wings and are perfectly balanced.

Did the Archaic Indians of the Eastern U.S. have CNCs? 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Piney
brain fart

[Oniomancer]

18 hours ago, OverSword said:

Yeah, but look at this.  Starting and stopping this to make two perfectly symmetrical handles would be tough.  How do you build the momentum from one bump to the other?

Let's just say it's more work that I think would be worth the finished product, so I think we're missing something.

Consider the device in question is reciprocal, not rotary.

[Dynamo X]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

Those tolerances aren't that high and you never met some of the EEO-VP hired machinists at the Naval Weapons Development Center.

You also never saw a Koens-Crispin spearthrower weight (bannerstone) some of which have perfect holes, perfect wings and are perfectly balanced.

Did the Archaic Indians of the Eastern U.S. have CNCs? 

Correct. I've never come across any of the things you have mentioned. I just have 44 years of experience as an engineer, many at Rolls Royce Aero Engines in the city of Derby, UK that qualifies me for my opinion.  What valuable experience, not I know a bloke who says this or did that stories, do you have that are going to convince me that you are knowledgeable enough to make any meaningful comments on the matter. Please tell me how many actual years of real career based engineering experience and qualifications that you have.  If the tolerances claimed in the article are correct this is an amazing achievement by the Ancient Egyptians. Do you agree or not?

[+Hammerclaw]

11 hours ago, Piney said:

In vino veritas.

Que bueno!

[+Hammerclaw]

5 hours ago, cladking said:

I build systems.  I also build most of their component parts. I rarely build anything not associated with these systems and when I do it's rarely intended to look good but I also do fabricate such things.  One of my last projects I call a "corner table stool ladder".  Just because something looks perfect doesn't mean it can stand up to a micrometer.  Frequently when i have a little error that might show whether it's building a ditch or furniture I simply eyeball it and make another "error" to hide it.  It can't be perfect but it can look right.  

Then you should be familiar with the inherent symmetry of lathe-turned items. Besides, this same guy in another video touts the perfection of stones at Tiahuanaco when they most certainly are not.

[Piney]

13 minutes ago, Dynamo X said:

Correct. I've never come across any of the things you have mentioned. I just have 44 years of experience as an engineer, many at Rolls Royce Aero Engines in the city of Derby, UK that qualifies me for my opinion.  What valuable experience, not I know a bloke who says this or did that stories, do you have that are going to convince me that you are knowledgeable enough to make any meaningful comments on the matter. Please tell me how many actual years of real career based engineering experience and qualifications that you have.  If the tolerances claimed in the article are correct this is an amazing achievement by the Ancient Egyptians. Do you agree or not?

You want to try to credential bully me eh?

I am a former Native American cultural resource specialist who reproduced "primitive" techniques and technology for the Cumberland Prehistory Museum and the Smithsonian Museum of New York.

I also advise a woodland management/ environmental restoration company.

I have a background in geology, archeology, ethnobotany, some zoology,  history and theology (world religions).

Let me ask you something. The USCG pursuit boats have a multi engineer team/ computer designed wave breaking prow.

A archeologist with my former museum found a 5,000 year old archaic ocean going canoe with the same style prow.

Did they use a computer? 

Oh, the tolerance claim is bull****.

 

[Piney]

7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Que bueno!

No.....Mierdo......

[Dynamo X]

24 minutes ago, Piney said:

You want to try to credential bully me eh?

I am a former Native American cultural resource specialist who reproduced "primitive" techniques and technology for the Cumberland Prehistory Museum and the Smithsonian Museum of New York.

I also advise a woodland management/ environmental restoration company.

I have a background in geology, archeology, ethnobotany, some zoology,  history and theology (world religions).

Let me ask you something. The USCG pursuit boats have a multi engineer team/ computer designed wave breaking prow.

A archeologist with my former museum found a 5,000 year old archaic ocean going canoe with the same style prow.

Did they use a computer? 

Oh, the tolerance claim is bull****.

 

Very impressive background in those fields but somewhat short in engineering tolerances I'm afraid, unless I'm missing something that you haven't mentioned yet. If asking you certain questions is taken as some kind of bullying then maybe you are being a little oversensitive.  I am not so easily offended if someone is just disagreeing with me about anything so I can carry on with the debate in a civil manner, even if I am being antagonised in some way. Im not accusing you of that in any way, for the record. My point is that if the tolerances recorded are true, it is a fantastic feat for the time, even if it was somehow done totally by hand. If this tolerance claim is total garbage then tell me why. I can't prove that the claims are true but it is something I'll be following, just for curiosities sake. I try to keep an open mind until the evidence leads me one way or another, not just brush it under the rug. Don't you any ancient curiosities yourself and is it taboo to discuss them?

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Dynamo X said:

Very impressive background in those fields but somewhat short in engineering tolerances I'm afraid, unless I'm missing something that you haven't mentioned yet. If asking you certain questions is taken as some kind of bullying then maybe you are being a little oversensitive.  I am not so easily offended if someone is just disagreeing with me about anything so I can carry on with the debate in a civil manner, even if I am being antagonised in some way. Im not accusing you of that in any way, for the record. My point is that if the tolerances recorded are true, it is a fantastic feat for the time, even if it was somehow done totally by hand. If this tolerance claim is total garbage then tell me why. I can't prove that the claims are true but it is something I'll be following, just for curiosities sake. I try to keep an open mind until the evidence leads me one way or another, not just brush it under the rug. Don't you any ancient curiosities yourself and is it taboo to discuss them?

John (Hammerclaw) had already explained that the "expert" in the video lied about other stonework tolerances and isn't a trustworthy source.

No problem. People's first impressions of me as a NA competitive chainsaw operator and carver makes them think I'm a rube and my autistic forwardness seems aggressive to some.

Also I'm only half Native. My mother was Bronte Country/ Philadelphia gentry and I suffered the Quaker education system which gives me a little attitude. But Friend's Schools are something to brag about.

[Dynamo X]

9 minutes ago, Piney said:

John (Hammerclaw) had already explained that the "expert" in the video lied about other stonework tolerances and isn't a trustworthy source.

No problem. People's first impressions of me as a NA competitive chainsaw operator and carver makes them think I'm a rube and my autistic forwardness seems aggressive to some.

Also I'm only half Native. My mother was Bronte Country/ Philadelphia gentry and I suffered the Quaker education system which gives me a little attitude. But Friend's Schools are something to brag about.

No probs. I'm aware of your native background to some extent and I've always had great respect for your cultures and history. Go easy on the chaisaw though 'cos trees are a valuable commodity lol. Mr van Kerkwyk is the author of these claims so I'll have to see how his account stacks up. I haven't found much else, good or bad, out about him yet but the internet is a vast place so there's plenty of digging to do. I was hoping that somebody here would have something more solid on him either way. It looks like glass coffin time (remains to be seen)