Bible banned in some US schools

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

1 hour ago, Myles said:

It should.  The Quran, the sacred texts of Buddism, Hiduism and others should all go if the bible goes.

As if those texts were in primary schools to begin with…

[Myles]

9 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

As if those texts were in primary schools to begin with…

I agree.

[+Hammerclaw]

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Parents have the right to decide what their own children are exposed to.  

Parents do not have the right to decide  what other parent's children are exposed to.

Government set up public schools to promote the interests of the nation, they also have a stake in curriculum. Public schools were not set up to be convenient babysitters but to provide citizens capable of maintaining a democracy generation to generation. With policies like integration, the government thinks they have an overriding  interest in public school subjects and available materials. I can't imagine irate parents at a school board meeting being successful in halting integration. 

If, as is the case for many parents with unique views, they can select private schools or home schooling to have near total control over their children's education, even if it does defy state  policies. 

 

 

 

So, the side you side with should have all the power through government to dictate policy and the side you side against should have none. Thank you for your blatant and tragic honesty. Funny how your perspective changes when your side is the out party. Only then and briefly do you see how massively unfair it seems to our side. 

[Tatetopa]

14 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, the side you side with should have all the power through government to dictate policy and the side you side against should have none. Thank you for your blatant and tragic honesty. Funny how your perspective changes when your side is the out party. Only then and briefly do you see how massively unfair it seems to our side. 

My side is that every parent has the freedom and right to oversee the education of their own children,  That being so, if every parent has the same  absolute freedom and right, then no parent can infringe on another parent's rights.  Sorry you think that is somehow unfair that everyone has the same right. Whatever you want to teach your kids is none of my business and in return, mind your own business. 

My observation is that the federal government has an interest in curriculum,  learning methods, and structure of public schools.   I think that is fact.  I believe it is a tool used by the body politic to influence  the future.  Good or bad, that is pretty much how every country manages its population. It changes as one "Side": or opinion waxes and wanes  over time.  If you don't know that, you have one less piece of information to analyze what is happening.

Funny that you say side.  I grew up in integrated everything, restaurants, busses, schools, bathrooms, and drinking fountains.  I didn't do anything as a 17 year old, my parents didn't do anything; but one day everything changed.   That was a government action.  Was it responding to changing public opinion, or did it lead public opinion?  I don't know.   Is what is going on now responding or leading by the government, I still don't know.   

Your "side" is half of the force that pulls public opinion and perhaps government action back and forth.  What we all do will make things go faster or slower.   

Public schools may be influenced by parents, but the government has more influence.  If things are stable, we are all happy,  If things are changing, one side or the other  doesn't like it.  

My freedom is to analyze what is going on in schools, voice a protest if I have one, and then choose where to educate my children.   I maintain absolute freedom and right to guide the education of my children. 

 

 

[Alchopwn]

7 hours ago, Myles said:

It should.  The Quran, the sacred texts of Buddism, Hiduism and others should all go if the bible goes.

On the other hand none of the other scriptures have the same violent pornography that the Holy Bible contains.

I can't think of another single religious scripture that features a woman and a girl being p@ck r@ped to death and then cut into pieces.  The Holy Bible has all that and more.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

40 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

On the other hand none of the other scriptures have the same violent pornography that the Holy Bible contains.

I can't think of another single religious scripture that features a woman and a girl being p@ck r@ped to death and then cut into pieces.  The Holy Bible has all that and more.

That’d be Old Testament, and so also the Torah and therefore the Quran as well

[Alchopwn]

2 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

That’d be Old Testament, and so also the Torah and therefore the Quran as well

The Torah, certainly, but the Koran only references certain parts of the OT without containing it.

[pellinore]

21 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Hey, I think we all know there is some seriously violent pornography in the Bible; the Levite and His Concubine is a truly disgusting story.

I hadn't heard about this before. Probably wasn't thought as acceptable as the story of Noah's Ark and the Garden of Eden when I was in Sunday School. I expect bits like this are left out of school versions of the Bible.

There's a YT video of someone in the US asking people what they think about the family suitability of a book that discusses and sometimes supports stuff like sodomy, incest, and infanticide, and advocates capital punishment for minor infringement of by-laws like working on rest days-  they are horrified at the idea that such a book could be freely available. And yet that book is the one book that politicians insist should be available in schools.

[+and-then]

On 6/3/2023 at 2:32 AM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

OHH WHAT BRAVE NEW WORLD THAT HAS SUCH CHRISTIANS IN IT!!! 
 

 

Teaching people about the Bible, the teachings in it, the history behind it, the philosophy it contains and how it still impacts us today is valuable. There is a value to teaching 7 year olds as much as there is in teaching it to 17 year olds - as long as the content and the curriculum suit the audience. 

The Bible may BE literature but it wasn't written to fill that role.  As such, it has no real place in school, except as an afterthought for teaching literature.  A huge number of other texts do that quite well.   Teaching it dispassionately removes it from its role in coming to faith in God, which is what most today seem to want.  I have no interest in the opinions of how the world views "such Christians".  We all choose.  We then answer for it.  

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

2 hours ago, and-then said:

The Bible may BE literature but it wasn't written to fill that role. 
 

it wasn’t written to fill the role of literature, no. It was really “written” as we consider the word at all. It was collected. It exists. It IS as much literature as it is poetry or eschatology. 

2 hours ago, and-then said:

As such, it has no real place in school, except as an afterthought for teaching literature. 

Oddly enough, I never said it was to teach literature or literacy. I said it was the topic of education, not the tool. 

2 hours ago, and-then said:

A huge number of other texts do that quite well.   Teaching it dispassionately removes it from its role in coming to faith in God, which is what most today seem to want. 

Faith without understanding is meaningless.
Obedience without understanding is slavery. 
You cannot “come to God though the Bible” without thought, without understanding. Who better to teach that, someone who believes passionately in understanding the world or a screaming fanatic on a bully pulpit demanding blind obedience. 

2 hours ago, and-then said:

I have no interest in the opinions of how the world views "such Christians".  

What about how Jesus views such “Christians”? Jesus would never have used parables if thought and consideration were not to be part of faith. Teaching people to understand the Bible is teaching people to understand Jesus’ message. 

I’ll stand before my Judge on that day same as you, at least I’ll have something to say beyond “I agreed with the removal of Your Word from schools because it scored a point against those I hate”. 

[Alchopwn]

13 hours ago, pellinore said:

I hadn't heard about this before. Probably wasn't thought as acceptable as the story of Noah's Ark and the Garden of Eden when I was in Sunday School. I expect bits like this are left out of school versions of the Bible.

There's a YT video of someone in the US asking people what they think about the family suitability of a book that discusses and sometimes supports stuff like sodomy, incest, and infanticide, and advocates capital punishment for minor infringement of by-laws like working on rest days-  they are horrified at the idea that such a book could be freely available. And yet that book is the one book that politicians insist should be available in schools.

The story in question is Judges 19.  It actually seems to be the same story as the story of Lot, except that the angels are actually just the Levite, and the wrath of god is actually

Spoiler

The other tribes of Israel waging a war against the Sodomites/Benjaminites.

The story is about a Levite (priest class) and his concubine (literally someone he sleeps with).  She sleeps around on him and runs off to her parents, who don't want her, and send for the Levite to come get her, which he does.  On the way home they stop in the city of Sodom, where they are forced to camp out by the fountain until a local (whom we shall call Lot) takes them in out of a sense of hospitality and knowing what his fellow Sodomites are like.  Later that night the Sodomites (who are from the tribe of Benjamin) come banging on the door of the house demanding that Lot send out the Levite so they can r@pe him.  Lot begs them not to and instead sends out his own virgin daughter and the concubine, and the pair of them are then p@ck r@ped to death.  The bodies are recovered and cut into pieces and sent with messengers to the other tribes of Israel who use this as a pretext to wage war on the Benjaminites of Sodom.  After a long and grueling fight, the Benjaminites sue for peace claiming that their perversion is due to the lack of eligible wives.  The other tribes then direct them Benjaminites to the town of Shiloh, famous for its overpopulation of daughters, where another grisly p@ck r@pe occurs as the Benjaminites claim their new wives, and God's justice is known in the land.  How sick is that story?

[+Link of Hyrule]

4 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

The story in question is Judges 19.  It actually seems to be the same story as the story of Lot, except that the angels are actually just the Levite, and the wrath of god is actually

  Hide contents

The other tribes of Israel waging a war against the Sodomites/Benjaminites.

The story is about a Levite (priest class) and his concubine (literally someone he sleeps with).  She sleeps around on him and runs off to her parents, who don't want her, and send for the Levite to come get her, which he does.  On the way home they stop in the city of Sodom, where they are forced to camp out by the fountain until a local (whom we shall call Lot) takes them in out of a sense of hospitality and knowing what his fellow Sodomites are like.  Later that night the Sodomites (who are from the tribe of Benjamin) come banging on the door of the house demanding that Lot send out the Levite so they can r@pe him.  Lot begs them not to and instead sends out his own virgin daughter and the concubine, and the pair of them are then p@ck r@ped to death.  The bodies are recovered and cut into pieces and sent with messengers to the other tribes of Israel who use this as a pretext to wage war on the Benjaminites of Sodom.  After a long and grueling fight, the Benjaminites sue for peace claiming that their perversion is due to the lack of eligible wives.  The other tribes then direct them Benjaminites to the town of Shiloh, famous for its overpopulation of daughters, where another grisly p@ck r@pe occurs as the Benjaminites claim their new wives, and God's justice is known in the land.  How sick is that story?

You forgot the part where God totally destroyed the city and all inhabitants (minds Lot and his family) for their gang rape! Lot even tried to get good to change his mind and God said he would if Lot could find even 10 righteous people in the city. Lot was unable to find any. 

As such,  it's a sickening event (if it took place,  there's no way to know in 2023 whether there was a real event on which this story is based or whether it's a morality tale) but it is not being told to extol any virtue of gang rape but rather to remind the early Hebrews to be virtuous even with non-Hebrews! 

[pellinore]

@Alchopwn @Paranoid Android So someone handed over their virgin daughter to be raped? Nice. And God destroyed a whole city because he had a hissy fit? Did I also hear a story about a chap who was all set to slit the throat of his son because "God told him to do it"?

Add to all this violence the guilt the Bible imposes on people over sex, and it's pretty heavy stuff.

I believe the parent who called for the Bible to be banned did so ironically- sort of saying, if you are going to ban books arbitrarily, why not ban the Good Book too? If he did, he unwittingly made a very good point- it isn't suitable for schools, not unless it is heavily redacted anyway.

Edited June 5, 2023 by pellinore

[Alchopwn]

49 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

You forgot the part where God totally destroyed the city and all inhabitants (minds Lot and his family) for their gang rape! Lot even tried to get good to change his mind and God said he would if Lot could find even 10 righteous people in the city. Lot was unable to find any. 

That is the story of Lot, not the story of the Levite and his Concubine.  My conjecture is that the story of Lot is a more mythological retelling of the Levite and his Concubine, featuring angels and God's wrath, and Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt for some reason.  I suggest that the Levite and his Concubine (Judges 19) is the real story of Lot. The angel is a mere priest and his slutty girlfriend.  The city is burned by the Israelites, not God.  As to the pillar of salt, it probably has something to do with the proximity of Sodom to the Dead Sea.

Now if you REALLY wanna do your head in, consider what the moral lesson of the Levite and his Concubine actually is...

Edited June 5, 2023 by Alchopwn

[Alchopwn]

51 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

As such,  it's a sickening event (if it took place,  there's no way to know in 2023 whether there was a real event on which this story is based or whether it's a morality tale) but it is not being told to extol any virtue of gang rape but rather to remind the early Hebrews to be virtuous even with non-Hebrews! 

LOL, but the Levite was a member of a prominent priestly family.  The Benjaminites of Sodom were going to r@pe him, and he was a Hebrew.  I think viewing the story as extolling g@ng r@pe is more credible than what you suggest, given the Benjaminites commit one p@ck r@pe of 2 women and wind up rewarded with the daugthers of Shiloh as their wives/victims at the end of the story.  The other Hebrews literally conspire to keep the Benjaminites alive by offering up the peaceful people of Shiloh who weren't involved in the war at all.

So, wanna try and guess the moral again? I do actually have an answer btw, but you won't like it (lol).

[darkmoonlady]

Being a Pagan and having people discuss in detail the Bible is to me the same as listening to really hard core Star Wars fans. I know the main characters, familiar with the basic plot but find any discussion past Jar Jar was a stupid character as boring as watching paint dry. Although given a choice between the Bible and Star Wars, Star Wars has better movies so it wins.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

1 hour ago, darkmoonlady said:

Being a Pagan and having people discuss in detail the Bible is to me the same as listening to really hard core Star Wars fans. I know the main characters, familiar with the basic plot but find any discussion past Jar Jar was a stupid character as boring as watching paint dry. Although given a choice between the Bible and Star Wars, Star Wars has better movies so it wins.

HOW DARE YOU COMPARE CHRISTIANS TO STAR WARS FANS!! 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Star Wars fans have better dress sense

[darkmoonlady]

20 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

HOW DARE YOU COMPARE CHRISTIANS TO STAR WARS FANS!! 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Star Wars fans have better dress sense

I'll give you that. Christian Evangelical cosplay would get silly real fast. Everyone would either dress like Jesus, or Roman soldiers. Oh damn now I'm curious if this really exists. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

46 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

I'll give you that. Christian Evangelical cosplay would get silly real fast. Everyone would either dress like Jesus, or Roman soldiers. Oh damn now I'm curious if this really exists. 

Wouldn’t Passion Fetes/Parades/Festivals count as Cosplay?

[+Link of Hyrule]

4 hours ago, pellinore said:

@Alchopwn @Paranoid Android So someone handed over their virgin daughter to be raped? Nice. And God destroyed a whole city because he had a hissy fit?

A bit of modern revisionism (no ancient Hebrew would have viewed it through that lens, for example) but largely that's what happened, if you believe the text literally. 

 

4 hours ago, pellinore said:

Did I also hear a story about a chap who was all set to slit the throat of his son because "God told him to do it"?

That would be the story of Abraham and his son,  Isaac, if memory serves! Your comment ignores important context (such as God also promising that Isaac cannot die until he becomes a father [at the earliest], or that the promise was made after Isaac was born to a 90-year old woman after God promised  Abraham and Sarah that she would give birth). Such context suggests that after these miracles and promises,  Isaac wouldn't die. The author of Hebrews in the New Testament even suggests that Abraham expected God to raise Isaac from the dead after he died.   There's no Old Testament evidence of that,  but it reflects what a lot of Jews believe. In the end though, God provided a ram as an alternative sacrifice at the last minute. 

 

4 hours ago, pellinore said:

Add to all this violence the guilt the Bible imposes on people over sex, and it's pretty heavy stuff.

I believe the parent who called for the Bible to be banned did so ironically- sort of saying, if you are going to ban books arbitrarily, why not ban the Good Book too? If he did, he unwittingly made a very good point- it isn't suitable for schools, not unless it is heavily redacted anyway.

I agree,  the bible is not a text for young kids! Even when I was s Christian I would have argued it should be in a high school lending section.  

That's why Sunday School teachers use and appropriate stories to teach children (just like any subject should be taught at age appropriate levels). 

[darkmoonlady]

17 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Wouldn’t Passion Fetes/Parades/Festivals count as Cosplay?

Those are Catholic, they're more pagan than I am. Evangelicals cannot decide if cosplay is idolatry or not from what I looked up. 

[preacherman76]

On 6/4/2023 at 1:40 AM, Tatetopa said:

My side is that every parent has the freedom and right to oversee the education of their own children,  That being so, if every parent has the same  absolute freedom and right, then no parent can infringe on another parent's rights.  Sorry you think that is somehow unfair that everyone has the same right. Whatever you want to teach your kids is none of my business and in return, mind your own business. 

My observation is that the federal government has an interest in curriculum,  learning methods, and structure of public schools.   I think that is fact.  I believe it is a tool used by the body politic to influence  the future.  Good or bad, that is pretty much how every country manages its population. It changes as one "Side": or opinion waxes and wanes  over time.  If you don't know that, you have one less piece of information to analyze what is happening.

Funny that you say side.  I grew up in integrated everything, restaurants, busses, schools, bathrooms, and drinking fountains.  I didn't do anything as a 17 year old, my parents didn't do anything; but one day everything changed.   That was a government action.  Was it responding to changing public opinion, or did it lead public opinion?  I don't know.   Is what is going on now responding or leading by the government, I still don't know.   

Your "side" is half of the force that pulls public opinion and perhaps government action back and forth.  What we all do will make things go faster or slower.   

Public schools may be influenced by parents, but the government has more influence.  If things are stable, we are all happy,  If things are changing, one side or the other  doesn't like it.  

My freedom is to analyze what is going on in schools, voice a protest if I have one, and then choose where to educate my children.   I maintain absolute freedom and right to guide the education of my children. 

 

 

Certainly there must be a line that government shouldn’t have power to cross? I mean if I could be arrested for reading a book found in the school library to say my neighbors kids, that probably shouldn’t be in the school library. 
 

I think it’s sad that people think government should have more say in schools than parents. To me, government, especially the federal government, should have zero say about anything. We were first in the world in education before the government had influence. Now we are raising idiots. 

[darkmoonlady]

19 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Certainly there must be a line that government shouldn’t have power to cross? I mean if I could be arrested for reading a book found in the school library to say my neighbors kids, that probably shouldn’t be in the school library. 
 

I think it’s sad that people think government should have more say in schools than parents. To me, government, especially the federal government, should have zero say about anything. We were first in the world in education before the government had influence. Now we are raising idiots. 

The government doesn't have more power but it does have some power as well it should. Not all parents are good people who take good care of their children. It's why teachers are mandatory reporters. We aren't raising idiots. We are raising generations of kids with the biggest income inequality. We were never ever ranked #1 in education. 

Why U.S. can't get back to head of the class (because it was never there) https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/why-us-cant-get-back-to-head-of-the-class-because-it-was-never-there/2012/07/01/gJQAwpgAHW_blog.html

[Rlyeh]

8 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

As such,  it's a sickening event (if it took place,  there's no way to know in 2023 whether there was a real event on which this story is based or whether it's a morality tale) but it is not being told to extol any virtue of gang rape but rather to remind the early Hebrews to be virtuous even with non-Hebrews! 

Sending your slave out to be raped to death is virtuous?  How brave of him.

[preacherman76]

2 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

The government doesn't have more power but it does have some power as well it should. Not all parents are good people who take good care of their children. It's why teachers are mandatory reporters. We aren't raising idiots. We are raising generations of kids with the biggest income inequality. We were never ever ranked #1 in education. 

Why U.S. can't get back to head of the class (because it was never there) https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/why-us-cant-get-back-to-head-of-the-class-because-it-was-never-there/2012/07/01/gJQAwpgAHW_blog.html

Many of the kids in high school can hardly read at an elementary level. I was raised poor in a trailer park. Yet somehow I was able to read and write appropriately for my age level. How can poverty explain that?