Ontarians vote NO to health care privatization in community referendum

[Eldorado]

Nearly 400,000 Ontarians took part in referendum on the privatization of public hospital services and organizers say that an overwhelming 98% voted against it.

The Ontario Health Coalition (OHC) announced the results of their mass community-run referendum on Wednesday, where Ontarians were given the opportunity to have their say on if they would like their public hospital services to be privatized to forprofit hospitals and clinics.

Of the total 386,068 votes — 378,726 were voted ‘no’ and 7,001 votes ‘yes’. The remaining 341 were spoiled votes.

https://www.canindia.com/ontarians-say-no-to-health-care-privatization-in-massive-community-referendum/

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/98-ontario-referendum-participants-not-123524544.html

[+OverSword]

Probably gave them the choice without telling them they are going to get a 10% tax increase across the board every decade to continue to fund it.

[Setton]

30 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Probably gave them the choice without telling them they are going to get a 10% tax increase across the board every decade to continue to fund it.

Not sure how Canada compares but in the UK we pay less on average in taxes for our healthcare than you pay in insurance. And then we don't pay anything further when we actually need treatment.

Maybe it's just one of the ways the UK and Canada are superior to the US.

Edited June 5 by Setton

[+Desertrat56]

52 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Probably gave them the choice without telling them they are going to get a 10% tax increase across the board every decade to continue to fund it.

It is cost effective to pay another 10% to have public healthcare than to keep paying the same amount and get privitized healthcare.  They were smart to refuse it.   Privitizing any public service makes it more expensive and less affective.

[+OverSword]

45 minutes ago, Setton said:

Not sure how Canada compares but in the UK we pay less on average in taxes for our healthcare than you pay in insurance.

I compared my costs per check with someone from England's here a few years ago and cost was comparable.  As I type this I'm pulling up my paystub from Friday:

For Medical, Dental and Vision it was $75.67 per check so multiply that by two and then by twelve and I pay for Heath insurance around $1,816.08 annually with a $1,500 deductible

For Medicare (socialized medicine) I pay $30.60 or about $734.40 annually 

Total $2,550.48 or add $1,500 if I use it for more than check ups which I have never done except for when I broke my arm 15 years ago.

Can you view how much you are taxed for your health care annually or bi-weekly?

Edit I F'ed up.  52 Weeks a year so bi-weekly is 26 checks so annual for all health including Medicare $2,763.02 or 2,222.16 Pound

 

 

Edited June 5 by OverSword

[+OverSword]

3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Privitizing any public service makes it more expensive and less affective.

More expensive maybe.  I bet if we in the US had public healthcare it would cost me more and I'm sure it would be less effective.  Picture the hospital run like the DMV.

[+Desertrat56]

8 minutes ago, OverSword said:

More expensive maybe.  I bet if we in the US had public healthcare it would cost me more and I'm sure it would be less effective.  Picture the hospital run like the DMV.

From my perspective it can't get worse than it already is and I expect it will never go public any more than it already is per state, because we would have to get rid of the insurance companies.   That's why we don't have public healthcare on a federal scale.  We do have it per state, in New Mexico it is the University hospital that is public, as well as being a research and teaching hospital.   And if I have a choice that is where I will go if I ever need to go to a hospital.   In some states it is better, like Texas (because they have laws concerning how insurance must behave) and Arizona (not sure why it is better there), but they are exceptions rather than the rule.

Edited June 5 by Desertrat56

[acidhead]

 

In Canada we get socialized healthcare and when the wait lines back up or we want something specialized we cross the border and use Private healthcare in the good ol USA. 

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

From my perspective it can't get worse than it already is and I expect it will never go public any more than it already is per state, because we would have to get rid of the insurance companies.   That's why we don't have public healthcare on a federal scale.  We do have it per state, in New Mexico it is the University hospital that is public, as well as being a research and teaching hospital.   And if I have a choice that is where I will go if I ever need to go to a hospital.   In some states it is better, like Texas (because they have laws concerning how insurance must behave) and Arizona (not sure why it is better there), but they are exceptions rather than the rule.

The way our corrupt government runs I'm quite sure that the result of a single payer option would be we would have less quality care on average and longer waits.  the insurance companies would mainly be bought out and merged by the largest insurers who would join hospitals and pharmaceutical companies in making record profits.

[acidhead]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Probably gave them the choice without telling them they are going to get a 10% tax increase across the board every decade to continue to fund it.

In many circumstances the Canadian government pays for Canadians to travel to the USA for healthcare when our wait lines are backed up. 

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, acidhead said:

In many circumstances the Canadian government pays for Canadians to travel to the USA for healthcare when our wait lines are backed up. 

That's nuts.  I wonder what rates they pay?

[acidhead]

28 minutes ago, OverSword said:

That's nuts.  I wonder what rates they pay?

No idea 

Here's a link local to you 

 

Edited June 5 by acidhead

[Alchopwn]

I'm not surprised that Ontarians don't trust privatization.  They only have to look at the USA to see what privatization really means, and it's a nightmare.  It's a simple fact, in every country other than the USA, the governments handle healthcare better than private firms.  In the USA the government has proven both too incompetent and too deeply controlled by medical and insurance lobbyists to properly manage healthcare.  That is why US citizens get charged $US 20,000 for a goddamned ride in an ambulance, and health insurance is a higher priority than rent.  Capitalism has utterly failed to protect the American people from utter exploitation in this crucial area.  It should be considered human rights abuse.  I support Capital and the Free Market, but they have utterly failed to provide reasonably priced healthcare in the USA, and it is a national disgrace.  Every other country in the developed world has decent low cost healthcare provision, but not the USA.  This is not to say that we don't have well provisioned hospitals, its just most people can't access them due to the costs involved, and the insurance companies will try to bankrupt you rather than pay out for your expenses.  Its a huge scam against We the People, and a lot of seriously corrupt operators should have gone to jail over it.

Edited June 6 by Alchopwn

[quiXilver]

Heartening to see Canadians not voting against their best interest.

More and more I'm considering moving to BC when I retire...

[odas]

13 hours ago, acidhead said:

In many circumstances the Canadian government pays for Canadians to travel to the USA for healthcare when our wait lines are backed up. 

And Americans come to Canada for medicine en mass. That there are complaints about wait times, yes. Generated by the current pro privatisation Doug Ford government in Ontario. Yet, 98% of Ontarians don't want privatisation. So 98% of Ontarians are stupid? 

Here is what I pay for my dental, vision, short and long term disability, extended healthcare, physio, massage..per bi weekly check: 30 canadian dollars. 0 deductible.

In my previous company I paid nothing, zero. But I did have a 10% deductible. 90/10.

Everything else goes thru the taxes anyway which are now set to about 20% combined province and federal. 

Is our healthcare the best? No. But it is up there for very affordable price for ALL Canadians.

 

Edited June 6 by odas

[Edumakated]

13 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I'm not surprised that Ontarians don't trust privatization.  They only have to look at the USA to see what privatization really means, and it's a nightmare.  It's a simple fact, in every country other than the USA, the governments handle healthcare better than private firms.  In the USA the government has proven both too incompetent and too deeply controlled by medical and insurance lobbyists to properly manage healthcare.  That is why US citizens get charged $US 20,000 for a goddamned ride in an ambulance, and health insurance is a higher priority than rent.  Capitalism has utterly failed to protect the American people from utter exploitation in this crucial area.  It should be considered human rights abuse.  I support Capital and the Free Market, but they have utterly failed to provide reasonably priced healthcare in the USA, and it is a national disgrace.  Every other country in the developed world has decent low cost healthcare provision, but not the USA.  This is not to say that we don't have well provisioned hospitals, its just most people can't access them due to the costs involved, and the insurance companies will try to bankrupt you rather than pay out for your expenses.  Its a huge scam against We the People, and a lot of seriously corrupt operators should have gone to jail over it.

Most of the issues with US healthcare though are due to government interference, not privatization.   The US doesn't really have true free market healthcare across the board.  The biggest issue is that health insurance is tied to employment which it shouldn't be but it is a throwback from World War II.  Health insurance needs to be decoupled from employment so the end user can shop policies and the state barriers lowered so insurance can function like any other market.

Put it this way, imagine if your car insurance operated like health insurance.  Every time you changed jobs, you had to change your health insurance.  Not only that, the specifics of your policy and what they cover would also change.  In addition, your car insurance paid for things like car washes, oil changes, and tire rotations.   Finally, because of state laws, there would be only two or three insurance providers in your state.  It doesn't take much imagination to understand how expensive and jacked up auto insurance would become...

Within medical fields where insurance is not often used, you see lower prices and better service.  For example, dental and elective surgeries like cosmetic procedures.  Doctors compete on price and service like any other industry and so the procedures are largely affordable and people can often easily finance the procedures.  Think BBLs, boob jobs, and LASIK surgeries.

Limited insurance market has inflated costs since it is a third party payor.  In addition, health insurance is not really insurance but prepaid medical care.  Insurance is supposed to be for catastrophic care, not to pay for physicals and every little sniffle. 

Lastly, the other issue is most medical costs are near end of life.  It cost a ton of money to get old.  As medical technology has advanced, people are living longer but with that comes extreme costs.

Socialized medicines seems better on the surface, particularly if you are healthy and only need minor care.  However, if you need major medical care, I think the US model is best.  You may go bankrupt, but you'll be alive.... 

 

[+Desertrat56]

2 hours ago, odas said:

And Americans come to Canada for medicine en mass. That there are complaints about wait times, yes. Generated by the current pro privatisation Doug Ford government in Ontario. Yet, 98% of Ontarians don't want privatisation. So 98% of Ontarians are stupid? 

Here is what I pay for my dental, vision, short and long term disability, extended healthcare, physio, massage..per bi weekly check: 30 canadian dollars. 0 deductible.

In my previous company I paid nothing, zero. But I did have a 10% deductible. 90/10.

Everything else goes thru the taxes anyway which are now set to about 20% combined province and federal. 

Is our healthcare the best? No. But it is up there for very affordable price for ALL Canadians.

 

Those who think privatisation would speed up the wait times need to come to New Mexico and make a doctor appointment for something dire.   You will be told to go to the ER and at the ER you will wait 10 to 24 hours to be seen by a doctor.    That is privatized health care!   It isn't that way in Texas or Arizona, you only have to wait a few days, if it is not dire you can get in in about 2 weeks.  In New Mexico and some other states it is months!   So, you all need to keep your public healthcare, and keep the insurance companies at bay because that is the main reason we have thsese problems.  If you don't have insurance or you have medicaid from the state because you are poor most places will not see you.  And we even have a few hospitals that will not take medicare patients (who have to have a part B to pay for what medicare doesn't pay).

 

Edited June 6 by Desertrat56

[odas]

4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Those who think privatisation would speed up the wait times need to come to New Mexico and make a doctor appointment for something dire.   You will be told to go to the ER and at the ER you will wait 10 to 24 hours to be seen by a doctor.    That is privatized health care!   It isn't that way in Texas or Arizona, you only have to wait a few days, if it is not dire you can get in in about 2 weeks.  In New Mexico and some other states it is months!   So, you all need to keep your public healthcare, and keep the insurance companies at bay because that is the main reason we have thsese problems.  If you don't have insurance or you have medicaid from the state because you are poor most places will not see you.  And we even have a few hospitals that will not take medicare patients (who have to have a part B to pay for what medicare doesn't pay).

 

We do have wait times, based on the severity. If you see ER ( free of cost ) for a broken finger of course the person with kiddney stones or worse will be taken in before and you will wait. 

If it is a CT scan or MRI or simmilar, again, based on the recomendations of the family doctor, you will wait a few hours to a few weeks.

People like to complain about everything and yes, people complain about wait times here. But, according to my cousin who is a RPN, most complaints are from people who visit ER on a regular basis for no reason. They got nothing better to do I guess. And the 98% is proof that we are ok here. With the healthcare, with the price, with the wait times.

[+OverSword]

14 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Capitalism has utterly failed to protect the American people from utter exploitation in this crucial area. 

It's got nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with a corrupt government ran by special interests.  Those other countries you're talking about are all successful capitalist systems.

[+Desertrat56]

28 minutes ago, OverSword said:

It's got nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with a corrupt government ran by special interests.  Those other countries you're talking about are all successful capitalist systems.

It is both, why do you think we have corrupt politicians, capitalism, why do you think our health care system is messed up?   Capitalism.   Doctors are quitting because they have too many requirements, some states (like New Mexico) are worse, insisting that they pay taxes that they don't have to pay in other states, malpractice insurance is higher in this state because - insurance companies run the state -, so we have shortages of doctors, and now it is getting to the point where we can't get physicians assistants, we get nurse practitioners and they are over loaded so it takes months to see the primary care.  The ER does not evaluate by need when you come in.  When I took my aunt to the ER the ambulance drivers were dropping people who had been in car accidents in the waiting room.   We were there 10 hours and my aunt spent the whole time sitting in a chair when she needed to be in bed so I asked how much longer (they had done all the tests 6 hours before) and was told maybe 2 more hours, meaning 5 more hours.   I took her home and we tried a different hospital the next day.  The third day we drove to the next town to the ER and it was a 10 hour wait to see a doctor but they had her in a little room on a bed so she slept and I watched tv.   I am very glad I am healthy and intend to do what I need to stay that way.   

[Edumakated]

41 minutes ago, odas said:

We do have wait times, based on the severity. If you see ER ( free of cost ) for a broken finger of course the person with kiddney stones or worse will be taken in before and you will wait. 

If it is a CT scan or MRI or simmilar, again, based on the recomendations of the family doctor, you will wait a few hours to a few weeks.

People like to complain about everything and yes, people complain about wait times here. But, according to my cousin who is a RPN, most complaints are from people who visit ER on a regular basis for no reason. They got nothing better to do I guess. And the 98% is proof that we are ok here. With the healthcare, with the price, with the wait times.

Do you see rationing?  For example, say an 80 year old needs a new knee.  Does your system say it isn't worth the cost given life expectancy or let him get his knee replaced?

One of the issues I see with socialized medicine is that there will be rationing.  Even when Obamacare was passed here, you had doctors like Ezekial Emmanuel (Rahm Emmaneul's brother) basically saying that old people don't need end of life care.

The US could probably afford universal healthcare but then we'd need to also reduce our military and other spending as well.  Countries with socialized medicine typically aren't supporting a huge military and use the US as their bodyguard.  Also, they take advantage of our free market innovations.  We also can't have millions of illegals coming across our border as well who often overwhelm our city ER services for basic healthcare.  This is why hospitals often have to charge so much so they can make up for those that don't pay and under insured.

[Edumakated]

3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

It is both, why do you think we have corrupt politicians, capitalism, why do you think our health care system is messed up?   Capitalism.   Doctors are quitting because they have too many requirements, some states (like New Mexico) are worse, insisting that they pay taxes that they don't have to pay in other states, malpractice insurance is higher in this state because - insurance companies run the state -, so we have shortages of doctors, and now it is getting to the point where we can't get physicians assistants, we get nurse practitioners and they are over loaded so it takes months to see the primary care.  The ER does not evaluate by need when you come in.  When I took my aunt to the ER the ambulance drivers were dropping people who had been in car accidents in the waiting room.   We were there 10 hours and my aunt spent the whole time sitting in a chair when she needed to be in bed so I asked how much longer (they had done all the tests 6 hours before) and was told maybe 2 more hours, meaning 5 more hours.   I took her home and we tried a different hospital the next day.  The third day we drove to the next town to the ER and it was a 10 hour wait to see a doctor but they had her in a little room on a bed so she slept and I watched tv.   I am very glad I am healthy and intend to do what I need to stay that way.   

Everything you listed has nothing to do with capitalism...

Too many requirements is too many regulations.  That is not capitalism.  That is the feds / states trying to tell doctors how to practice medicine.  The insurance companies have little competition because GOVERNMENT has put up barriers that prevents interstate competition. 

All the problems you list are rooted in government interference and over regulation.  Reducing regulations so the market can operate efficiently is the answer, not more government to fix what government broke.

[+Desertrat56]

15 minutes ago, Edumakated said:

The US could probably afford universal healthcare but then we'd need to also reduce our military and other spending as well.  Countries with socialized medicine typically aren't supporting a huge military and use the US as their bodyguard.  Also, they take advantage of our free market innovations.  We also can't have millions of illegals coming across our border as well who often overwhelm our city ER services for basic healthcare.  This is why hospitals often have to charge so much so they can make up for those that don't pay and under insured.

  It isn't about cost, it is about insurance companies being out of business.    The U.S. could afford universal healthcare without reducing spending, besides, it's just monopoly money anyway, have you been keeping up on the news lately.   And this isn't the first time we have had issues with the deficit and budgets.  

And you are confused about illegals overwhelming our city ER services, what city?  LA? El Paso?  Yuma? Las Cruces?  They have to have an ID and insurance coverage of some sort to be treated so they are not going to the ER, unless you know of some ER that takes patients without ID or insurance????   Hmmmm???   It is the same complaint that they get welfare, no they don't because they don't have credentials to get it.  Not to mention the amount of paper work that is required to fill out, no, they don't get welfare either.   If they have ID and it is fake the SSN will trip them up because nowadays the stolen SSN's are from people who are alive and working.    Where do you get your ideas?

Edited June 6 by Desertrat56

[odas]

1 minute ago, Edumakated said:

Do you see rationing?  For example, say an 80 year old needs a new knee.  Does your system say it isn't worth the cost given life expectancy or let him get his knee replaced?

One of the issues I see with socialized medicine is that there will be rationing.  Even when Obamacare was passed here, you had doctors like Ezekial Emmanuel (Rahm Emmaneul's brother) basically saying that old people don't need end of life care.

The US could probably afford universal healthcare but then we'd need to also reduce our military and other spending as well.  Countries with socialized medicine typically aren't supporting a huge military and use the US as their bodyguard.  Also, they take advantage of our free market innovations.  We also can't have millions of illegals coming across our border as well who often overwhelm our city ER services for basic healthcare.  This is why hospitals often have to charge so much so they can make up for those that don't pay and under insured.

No. Coincidently my good buddy and former supervisor just had his hip replacement a month ago with 76. Yes, he had to wait 6 months because of backlog but he is doing well. 

My other buddy just had a knee surgery with 51. His wait time was also around 6 months.

So, no. Our system does not discriminate based on age or based on wealth. We all have to wait.

We have a two tier system. One that covers ALL for surgeries, hospitals, ER..that is paid thru our taxes, and the other is either thru company which is dentist, vision, extended healthcare...or private insurance if a company does not have one.

As of this year, based on age and income, the federal government has extended the federal healhcare to dental too and it will be slowly covering all Canadians eventually.

 

[odas]

10 minutes ago, Edumakated said:

Everything you listed has nothing to do with capitalism...

Too many requirements is too many regulations.  That is not capitalism.  That is the feds / states trying to tell doctors how to practice medicine.  The insurance companies have little competition because GOVERNMENT has put up barriers that prevents interstate competition. 

All the problems you list are rooted in government interference and over regulation.  Reducing regulations so the market can operate efficiently is the answer, not more government to fix what government broke.

Sorru, you are wrong there. Health care insurance, car insurance, home insurance...are half the cost in Germany, Austria, Sweden....and in some cases, like car insurance more than half the cost than here in Canada or US.

For a volkassko car insurance in Germany you will pay about 500 euros in a year. Vollkasko is full insurance regardless of fault.

So, it is not the government restrictions but the government letting insurances doing whatever they want to do. Same in US and in Canada.