Indiana ACLU challenges provision barring instruction to young students about 'human sexuality'

[Michelle]

The American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana is arguing in a federal lawsuit that a new state law’s provision barring teachers from providing instruction on “human sexuality” to students from pre-K through third grade is unconstitutional

 A new Indiana law’s provision barring teachers from providing instruction on “human sexuality” to students from pre-K through the third grade is unconstitutional and so vaguely written that teachers wouldn’t know whether they are complying with it, a federal lawsuit filed Friday argues.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana’s lawsuit targets a portion of a new law that also requires schools to notify a parent if a student requests a name or pronoun change at school, but it does not challenge the pronoun and name change notification provision.

Republican lawmakers approved the law this year during a session that targeted LGBTQ+ people in the state. It is due to take effect July 1 after Republican Gov. Eric Holcomb signed it into law in May.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/indiana-aclu-challenges-provision-barring-instruction-young-students-99971009#:~:text=INDIANAPOLIS -- A new Indiana,federal lawsuit filed Friday argues.

[darkmoonlady]

It is unconstitutional. Sex education in schools hasn't been an issue for 30+ years, and now suddenly a small group of religious extremists are attempting to limit the speech of teachers and the curriculum of schools to fit their narrow religious ideological ideas. How is this any different than the supposed "Sharia" laws the same Christian religious extremists were swearing was going to forced onto them a few years ago (that never happened). So if its Christians forcing their views down everyone's throats and pushing religious laws on others, that's fine, no other religion can but fine for this very specific brand of Christianity? 

And how has purity culture worked out for those same brands of Christianity? Is keeping kids ignorant of sex, telling girls their only worth is their virginity and child bearing, and men are the only descision makers, therefore eliminating consent, gone for these Christian parents? 

Its left their kids and especially young girls vulnerable to sexual grooming and predation by youth pastors, pastors, church leaders and others in their organizations, in Evangelicals, Baptists, Mormons, Catholic and other churches that teach purity culture. Wouldn't say keeping kids naive about sex has worked out well at all has it? 

[Myles]

2 hours ago, Michelle said:

The American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana is arguing in a federal lawsuit that a new state law’s provision barring teachers from providing instruction on “human sexuality” to students from pre-K through third grade is unconstitutional

 A new Indiana law’s provision barring teachers from providing instruction on “human sexuality” to students from pre-K through the third grade is unconstitutional and so vaguely written that teachers wouldn’t know whether they are complying with it, a federal lawsuit filed Friday argues.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana’s lawsuit targets a portion of a new law that also requires schools to notify a parent if a student requests a name or pronoun change at school, but it does not challenge the pronoun and name change notification provision.

Republican lawmakers approved the law this year during a session that targeted LGBTQ+ people in the state. It is due to take effect July 1 after Republican Gov. Eric Holcomb signed it into law in May.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/indiana-aclu-challenges-provision-barring-instruction-young-students-99971009#:~:text=INDIANAPOLIS -- A new Indiana,federal lawsuit filed Friday argues.

I have no issue with banning teacher in Kindergarten through 3rd great not talking about sex.

[darkmoonlady]

22 minutes ago, Myles said:

I have no issue with banning teacher in Kindergarten through 3rd great not talking about sex.

The point is these laws are written so vaguely that it just becomes anything the vocal extremists want out, there is not any actual sex education prek to 3rd, it's a way to get a toe hold, and as we saw in Florida it then was applied to all grades and now college. And it's not sex education its anything regarding gender, regarding a bunch of other hand picked social agenda topics conservatives do not like. Which ends up shaping the curriculum by extremists and not education experts. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

26 minutes ago, Myles said:

I have no issue with banning teacher in Kindergarten through 3rd great not talking about sex.

Sex Ed at those ages is about “safe touch versus unsafe touch” and what to do and say when you feel unsafe. 
Banning this results in sexual abuse being ignored. 

[Occupational Hubris]

Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Banning this results in sexual abuse being ignored. 

Which, lets be perfectly honest, is what some of these groups want. RE: The Duggers and other extremists cults, like the catholic church 

[Tatetopa]

58 minutes ago, Myles said:

I have no issue with banning teacher in Kindergarten through 3rd great not talking about sex.

If a teacher refers to a kindergarten student as a boy or girl, or uses he or she to refer to a child, is that not talking about sex?

[+and-then]

47 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Sex Ed at those ages is about “safe touch versus unsafe touch” and what to do and say when you feel unsafe. 
Banning this results in sexual abuse being ignored. 

I'll take your word for that but that's not at all what the restrictions are about.  There is absolutely no reason to discuss sexual issues with a child who has no grasp at all of the concept.  Banning discussions of gender fluidity harms no child.  OTOH, insisting that these concepts be introduced at that age has only ONE purpose.  That community wants to indoctrinate these children so that they'll be totally accepting as normal and natural, a topic that at best is beyond their ability to grasp.  If they keep pushing the Trans issue on children this young, there will be trouble eventually.  Parents are the only ones who should be deciding what their 9-year-old or younger, is exposed to regarding sexual issues.  That wasn't an issue ever before but now there is a battle playing out and there could very well be significant, ugly backlash.  

So, why is it so critical that kids between the ages of 5 and 9 be exposed to this dogma?

[Occupational Hubris]

9 minutes ago, and-then said:

 

So, why is it so critical that kids between the ages of 5 and 9 be exposed to this dogma?

I would hope your stance continue to the church, as well. The organization doing the most harm to kids between the ages of 5 and 9. 

[+and-then]

38 minutes ago, Occupational Hubris said:

I would hope your stance continue to the church, as well. The organization doing the most harm to kids between the ages of 5 and 9. 

My stance is simple.  The PARENTS should be making these choices.  Schools have no business indoctrinating very young children.  Besides, church membership is at all time lows in the US.  That's just the reality.  Yes, there is a problem in some church organizations and actual sexual abuse happens but to say it is common just isn't supported by the facts.  Also, when government becomes aware of such crimes they will remedy the situation.  With the Trans dogma in that age group, it's the government effectively acting to indoctrinate the little ones.  I have no opinion on this issue once the kids are closer to puberty and have some grasp of the emotions and physical urges associated with their identity as a sexual being.  But that isn't the issue, is it?  I'll ask again, WHY is it so critical to the Left to force this issue on K-3rd grades?

[Tatetopa]

Well what are the restrictions about?   And what assumptions are being made?  Some seem to think that  safe and unsafe touching is an appropriate lesson for the safety of children.  That might be the sum and substance of exposure to sex in K-3.  Others seem to think it implies talking about lesbian and gay sex to 4 year old kids.     Since I don't know what the issue and the law really is, I am not going to run up the OhMyGod tree without actual facts.  But feel free if you need the exercise.

[darkmoonlady]

9 minutes ago, and-then said:

My stance is simple.  The PARENTS should be making these choices.  Schools have no business indoctrinating very young children.  Besides, church membership is at all time lows in the US.  That's just the reality.  Yes, there is a problem in some church organizations and actual sexual abuse happens but to say it is common just isn't supported by the facts.  Also, when government becomes aware of such crimes they will remedy the situation.  With the Trans dogma in that age group, it's the government effectively acting to indoctrinate the little ones.  I have no opinion on this issue once the kids are closer to puberty and have some grasp of the emotions and physical urges associated with their identity as a sexual being.  But that isn't the issue, is it?  I'll ask again, WHY is it so critical to the Left to force this issue on K-3rd grades?

No school is teaching trans anything to kids. Other than a kid being trans in class and usually the parents only discuss that with the teacher and admin. It's a scare tactic that the religious conservatives are putting out there that has no basis in reality. They are using that as a means of controlling curriculum. You say you want parents to have say, ok what about the majority of other parents who don't want the conservative social agenda inserted into their kids school? The parents who don't have a problem with the current way the curriculum is? Isn't their parental control being shot down in favor of extremist religious ideology? 

[Hankenhunter]

2 hours ago, Occupational Hubris said:

Which, lets be perfectly honest, is what some of these groups want. RE: The Duggers and other extremists cults, like the catholic church 

And an easy half dozen here on UM.

[Occupational Hubris]

25 minutes ago, and-then said:

My stance is simple.  The PARENTS should be making these choices.  Schools have no business indoctrinating very young children.  Besides, church membership is at all time lows in the US.  That's just the reality.  Yes, there is a problem in some church organizations and actual sexual abuse happens but to say it is common just isn't supported by the facts.  Also, when government becomes aware of such crimes they will remedy the situation.  With the Trans dogma in that age group, it's the government effectively acting to indoctrinate the little ones.  I have no opinion on this issue once the kids are closer to puberty and have some grasp of the emotions and physical urges associated with their identity as a sexual being.  But that isn't the issue, is it?  I'll ask again, WHY is it so critical to the Left to force this issue on K-3rd grades?

It's so common in churches that they literally have insurance for it

https://www.ministryinsured.com/church-insurance/liability/abuse-molestation/

Quote

Sex Abuse in Catholic Church: Over 1,900 Minors Abused in Illinois, State Says

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/us/illinois-catholic-church-sex-abuse.html

 

Where are all the drag queens and teachers grooming and molesting kids?

[Occupational Hubris]

2 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

And an easy half dozen here on UM.

There is a particular member who can't stop focusing on trans kids genitalia. 

[Occupational Hubris]

33 minutes ago, and-then said:

 I'll ask again, WHY is it so critical to the Left to force this issue on K-3rd grades?

Also, it's not being forced on K-3 kids, but you won't pull your head out of your ass long enough to listen to the actual complaints that the law in florida was so vaguely written that it would be applied to all grade levels and college. Which it now has been. 

[Agent0range]

2 hours ago, and-then said:

I'll take your word for that but that's not at all what the restrictions are about.  There is absolutely no reason to discuss sexual issues with a child who has no grasp at all of the concept.  Banning discussions of gender fluidity harms no child. 

You're as dumb as they come.  Read the original post.  They are challenging that the school has to report when a child ASKS to be called by a different name or certain pronouns.  They are not challenging sexual issues.  You weirdos are the only ones talking about indoctrinating children.  Acting like some kind of weirdo protectors with Gym Jordan as your spokesperson.  

[Hankenhunter]

2 hours ago, and-then said:

My stance is simple.  The PARENTS should be making these choices.  Schools have no business indoctrinating very young children.  Besides, church membership is at all time lows in the US.  That's just the reality.  Yes, there is a problem in some church organizations and actual sexual abuse happens but to say it is common just isn't supported by the facts.  Also, when government becomes aware of such crimes they will remedy the situation.  With the Trans dogma in that age group, it's the government effectively acting to indoctrinate the little ones.  I have no opinion on this issue once the kids are closer to puberty and have some grasp of the emotions and physical urges associated with their identity as a sexual being.  But that isn't the issue, is it?  I'll ask again, WHY is it so critical to the Left to force this issue on K-3rd grades?

Let's talk about the indoctrination of children in organized religion. You lot do it on an industrial scale. Do these kids get a say? Nope.

Do they get a say when they are molested by clergy? Nope

Do they get a say when when elders of said religions abuse, and molested them? Nope.

You're a hypocrite once again. 

[Occupational Hubris]

This whole "drag/trans/gay are groomers" has its origins in straight up fascism. No wonder we see it where we do these days. It's pathetic "moral outrage" and works wonders on the dim-witted, just like the satanic panic of the 80s.

 

Hail Satan

[Alchopwn]

I think both positions, the Extreme Right/Religious and the Extreme Left/LGBT are disgusting. on this issue, and I think both might actually be breaking existing laws and leaving themselves open to being sued in the future, which is good.

The fact is, children are far more likely to get molested in a religious school.  The statistics are frightening.  So, not only will they leave their education with a substandard understanding of reality, full of non-existent nonsense, but they will quite possibly have been r@ped by pedophile priests and educators.  This is unacceptable.  You see, the state made a deal with the Devil when it allowed religious education.  Obviously private education will always exist, but the state by allowing religious education has to spend less on education as a  whole, but they also get sub-educated r@pe victims out the other end, which is not good for anyone involved.  The only bright light in this picture is the vast number of young people who react to the nonsense by quietly quitting the religion, or becoming virulently atheist as they kick against this abusive and ridiculous ideology.

The LGBT version has quite different problems as I see it.  They will freely admit that childhood sexuality is often fluid, but they don't respect that fact.  Instead they try to prematurely push children into an non-CIS role, while their personalities are still forming. This is a different sort of ideological brainwashing to the religious ideological brainwashing, but it is still brainwashing, and it should be criminalized.  In fact, in the future I fully expect to hear about individuals suing the Board of Education for preying on their childhood vulnerability to typecast them into gender roles that they no longer feel comfortable with as adults based on what amounts to doing what they think some adults want them to do to earn approval, or due to mischief and pranks, or because they were genuinely fluid but didn't like being indoctrinated.  It is extremely obvious that this is a push to force more children into the LGBT lifestyle at an earlier and earlier age, and that is a form of molestation too.

BOTH sides suffer from the issue that they are UNNECESSARILY SEXUALIZING CHILDREN.  Sex education should definitely teach about molestation and reporting.  Sex education should definitely teach about human reproduction.  Sex education should definitely teach about homosexual relationships.  Sex education and the education system in general absolutely shouldn't be making any assumptions about a child's gender identity before that child has reached their legal majority.

[Hankenhunter]

48 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I think both positions, the Extreme Right/Religious and the Extreme Left/LGBT are disgusting. on this issue, and I think both might actually be breaking existing laws and leaving themselves open to being sued in the future, which is good.

The fact is, children are far more likely to get molested in a religious school.  The statistics are frightening.  So, not only will they leave their education with a substandard understanding of reality, full of non-existent nonsense, but they will quite possibly have been r@ped by pedophile priests and educators.  This is unacceptable.  You see, the state made a deal with the Devil when it allowed religious education.  Obviously private education will always exist, but the state by allowing religious education has to spend less on education as a  whole, but they also get sub-educated r@pe victims out the other end, which is not good for anyone involved.  The only bright light in this picture is the vast number of young people who react to the nonsense by quietly quitting the religion, or becoming virulently atheist as they kick against this abusive and ridiculous ideology.

The LGBT version has quite different problems as I see it.  They will freely admit that childhood sexuality is often fluid, but they don't respect that fact.  Instead they try to prematurely push children into an non-CIS role, while their personalities are still forming. This is a different sort of ideological brainwashing to the religious ideological brainwashing, but it is still brainwashing, and it should be criminalized.  In fact, in the future I fully expect to hear about individuals suing the Board of Education for preying on their childhood vulnerability to typecast them into gender roles that they no longer feel comfortable with as adults based on what amounts to doing what they think some adults want them to do to earn approval, or due to mischief and pranks, or because they were genuinely fluid but didn't like being indoctrinated.  It is extremely obvious that this is a push to force more children into the LGBT lifestyle at an earlier and earlier age, and that is a form of molestation too.

BOTH sides suffer from the issue that they are UNNECESSARILY SEXUALIZING CHILDREN.  Sex education should definitely teach about molestation and reporting.  Sex education should definitely teach about human reproduction.  Sex education should definitely teach about homosexual relationships.  Sex education and the education system in general absolutely shouldn't be making any assumptions about a child's gender identity before that child has reached their legal majority.

Thanks Al. Much more eloquent than my post. 

Edited June 11 by Hankenhunter

[+and-then]

46 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

The fact is, children are far more likely to get molested in a religious school. 

That's a dodge.  That isn't what this issue is about.  I think that anyone who advocates for teaching anything about sex or gender to children between the ages of 5 and 9 damned well ought to speak up with specifics and defend that desire as being beneficial -TO THE CHILD.  

[Hankenhunter]

3 minutes ago, and-then said:

That's a dodge.  That isn't what this issue is about.  I think that anyone who advocates for teaching anything about sex or gender to children between the ages of 5 and 9 damned well ought to speak up with specifics and defend that desire as being beneficial -TO THE CHILD.  

No, it's not a dodge. It's been proven. Your religion is responsible for horrendous crimes against children. Indoctrination, although not as horrendous as the other betrayals, it's more insidious because it brings the children within reach of these predators. Answer me this, which is worse, the above, or teachers teaching sex education? 

[darkmoonlady]

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

I think both positions, the Extreme Right/Religious and the Extreme Left/LGBT are disgusting. on this issue, and I think both might actually be breaking existing laws and leaving themselves open to being sued in the future, which is good.

The fact is, children are far more likely to get molested in a religious school.  The statistics are frightening.  So, not only will they leave their education with a substandard understanding of reality, full of non-existent nonsense, but they will quite possibly have been r@ped by pedophile priests and educators.  This is unacceptable.  You see, the state made a deal with the Devil when it allowed religious education.  Obviously private education will always exist, but the state by allowing religious education has to spend less on education as a  whole, but they also get sub-educated r@pe victims out the other end, which is not good for anyone involved.  The only bright light in this picture is the vast number of young people who react to the nonsense by quietly quitting the religion, or becoming virulently atheist as they kick against this abusive and ridiculous ideology.

The LGBT version has quite different problems as I see it.  They will freely admit that childhood sexuality is often fluid, but they don't respect that fact.  Instead they try to prematurely push children into an non-CIS role, while their personalities are still forming. This is a different sort of ideological brainwashing to the religious ideological brainwashing, but it is still brainwashing, and it should be criminalized.  In fact, in the future I fully expect to hear about individuals suing the Board of Education for preying on their childhood vulnerability to typecast them into gender roles that they no longer feel comfortable with as adults based on what amounts to doing what they think some adults want them to do to earn approval, or due to mischief and pranks, or because they were genuinely fluid but didn't like being indoctrinated.  It is extremely obvious that this is a push to force more children into the LGBT lifestyle at an earlier and earlier age, and that is a form of molestation too.

BOTH sides suffer from the issue that they are UNNECESSARILY SEXUALIZING CHILDREN.  Sex education should definitely teach about molestation and reporting.  Sex education should definitely teach about human reproduction.  Sex education should definitely teach about homosexual relationships.  Sex education and the education system in general absolutely shouldn't be making any assumptions about a child's gender identity before that child has reached their legal majority.

The LBGTQ position has no connection to what treatment kids receive, you do understand that? Other than keeping trans care legal, the entire decisions are made by the parents in conjunction with doctors. And not a single doctor, it requires teams of people, and kids under 16 99% of the time is therapy and hormones, surgery isn't the option most trans people take, some do and some don't. There is no agenda by the LBGTQ community first off nor one that has any power to tell the medical professionals what constitutes treatment. You and the right are operating under a misconception of how gender treatment is sought, given and by whom and what it actually entails.

You've heard a few frankly ignorant comments on this board that do not have anything to do with the reality of gender care. Gender is not sexuality. They exist as completely independent expressions of identity. There is no sexualization of trans kids. They want to be accepted as the gender they feel they are, that is it. Some trans kids later know they're straight, some gay, some asexual, they run the same spectrum.

These aren't assumptions. These are kids who year in and year out, most with parents who refuse to listen until the kid either says or does something to harm themselves that the parents finally seek help. Are you seriously saying that a child who has said to their parents let me be who I am has to wait until you feel its okay, knowing they might take their life in the meantime? Because that is what this is about. Kids who consistently identify as the opposite gender begging for help and having people outside their family say no because they just do no feel comfortable with the idea. And that if they die waiting well what then I guess that proves they were serious???

Edited June 11 by darkmoonlady

[acidhead]

45 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

 Your religion is responsible for horrendous crimes against children. Indoctrination, although not as horrendous as the other betrayals, it's more insidious because it brings the children within reach of these predators. Answer me this, which is worse, the above, or teachers teaching sex education? 

???

In this thread you're attacking "religion as responsible for horrendous crimes against children" while simultaneously praying for children in the Colombian plane crash thread ???  

 

Edited June 11 by acidhead