Cave Art of Europe…what were they saying?

[Kenemet]

On 7/5/2023 at 2:36 AM, The Puzzler said:

Is it that those areas did not have a break in artistic license abilities. Did those people achieve much? How high was their artistic skill?

Art is distinctive enough that we can identify cultures by their design, construction, and decoration patterns.

Skill varies, just as it does today, and the materials used to make the art determines a lot of what can be done.  You don't get the Sistine Chapel when painting with just two colors on a rough surface that's often damp or cold and your only paintbrush is your fingers or a stick.

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

That's an interesting idea about how they came to understand the animals' physiology, but it doesn't quite account for how they seem to move naturalistically in the flicker of the torchlight.

So how do you account for the fact that stone age humans are painting better than Medievals?  I mean, they turn a corner into the Renaissance soon enough, but...   TBH I don't think I am being particularly unfair about the subject either; European Medieval art is just not good. 

 

 

 

Ok, I give up: it were aliens.

[Trelane]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Ok, I give up: it were aliens.

Nah, 'twas Bigfoot teaching his cousins and forgot to clean off the blackboard.

[The Puzzler]

16 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

That's an interesting idea about how they came to understand the animals' physiology, but it doesn't quite account for how they seem to move naturalistically in the flicker of the torchlight.

So how do you account for the fact that stone age humans are painting better than Medievals?  I mean, they turn a corner into the Renaissance soon enough, but...   TBH I don't think I am being particularly unfair about the subject either; European Medieval art is just not good. 

 

 

 

Yes, how do we account for this indeed?

it took a long time for the cave art be to acknowledged as being from 35,000BC…many archaeologists and experts reputations fell during this time…no one would believe how man at that time could have painted these.

because we are supposed to get better but nothing even to today, compares, with it.

Which leads me back to my original question….what happened to us.

[Emma_Acid]

On 6/23/2023 at 3:40 PM, The Puzzler said:

What were they doing it for, why go down into caverns inaccessible to most?

Their spiritual and mental landscape was very different to ours. When we see a deep cave, we know what it is, how it formed and where it leads; they would almost certainly have viewed these spaces in a completely different way to us.

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How were they capable of such intricate imagery in this time!?

How were they not? This feels like a "how did they build the pyramids thousands of years ago" question - talking as if they couldn't have done it, without actually articulating why they couldn't have.

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How did Homo sapiens learn to draw like that and did humanity lose knowledge of how to draw like that?

Again with the "pyramids" argument. "How did they do it when we can't do it today" - who says we can't??

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Why? Did something happen that shook the foundations of this artistic style?

It isn't an "artistic style". Its probably a subconscious attempt to understand and maybe even shape the world around them. 

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Is proto-writing involved?

AFAIK there is no evidence of this.

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 Did it bring us closer to being intelligent Homo sapien beings amongst others? Is it responsible for language, maybe via Neanderthals or were they just Leonardo da Vinci’s for fun?

This is a really interesting question. Here's an article on the matter from MIT.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Emma_Acid

[Abramelin]

21 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

The cave art is blueprints for our intelligence.

How about the Mas d'Azil pebbles?

[Piney]

4 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Yes, how do we account for this indeed?

it took a long time for the cave art be to acknowledged as being from 35,000BC…many archaeologists and experts reputations fell during this time…no one would believe how man at that time could have painted these.

because we are supposed to get better but nothing even to today, compares, with it.

Which leads me back to my original question….what happened to us.

I told you before the crooked little fingers on the hand prints are a indicator of a chromosomal disorder connected with high functioning autism which would make the artist hyper observant and a stickler for detail.

Leonardo was also probably a high functioning autie. 

[Trelane]

7 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Which leads me back to my original question….what happened to us.

I ask that every morning while I'm shaving.

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

How about the Mas d'Azil pebbles?

If you read the Wiki page about these pebbles, you'll know that some think these pebbles were mere symbols, but also that they - maybe - were some form of ancient 'writing' or notification.

But by googling I found this site (and I say it again, it' a great site) :

https://donsmaps.com/masdazil.html

Now watch what these 'primitives' were able to create.

I will bet my left hand that just a minority posting on this site is able to reproduce something similar artistic.

And the same happened with those cave paintings: some artistic geniusses were asked (or forced?) to paint the caves.

In medieval times àny monk or nun could draw or paint whatever s/he wanted, as long as it was done within the rules of the religion. Imagine: some guy was able to draw/paint a naked woman VERY lifelike. He would probably be burned alive because he would, with his drawings/paintings, have been able to draw attention away from Gawd and all the bs associated with Gawd.

 

Nó real artistic talent was needed, as long as you stuck to the 'rules'.

People didn't 'devolve', it was the most terrible plague, RELIGION, that caused the quality of art to diminish as compared to what the ancients were able to create.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Abramelin

[Alchopwn]

10 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Yes, how do we account for this indeed?

it took a long time for the cave art be to acknowledged as being from 35,000BC…many archaeologists and experts reputations fell during this time…no one would believe how man at that time could have painted these.

because we are supposed to get better but nothing even to today, compares, with it.

Which leads me back to my original question….what happened to us.

I disagree.  There are definitely artists alive today who could recreate the Lascaux paintings.  There are even artists alive today who could animate them without making them look cheap.  For their time they Lascaux paintings are simply phenomenal, but there is not one thing about them that elements of our culture today can't duplicate.  Of course it was something of a journey to get there...

[The Puzzler]

16 hours ago, Piney said:

I told you before the crooked little fingers on the hand prints are a indicator of a chromosomal disorder connected with high functioning autism which would make the artist hyper observant and a stickler for detail.

Leonardo was also probably a high functioning autie. 

We are total pains….

Edited July 11, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

19 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

Their spiritual and mental landscape was very different to ours. When we see a deep cave, we know what it is, how it formed and where it leads; they would almost certainly have viewed these spaces in a completely different way to us.

How were they not? This feels like a "how did they build the pyramids thousands of years ago" question - talking as if they couldn't have done it, without actually articulating why they couldn't have.

Again with the "pyramids" argument. "How did they do it when we can't do it today" - who says we can't??

It isn't an "artistic style". Its probably a subconscious attempt to understand and maybe even shape the world around them. 

AFAIK there is no evidence of this.

This is a really interesting question. Here's an article on the matter from MIT.

Thankyou for your answers Emma. I’ll try and answer each point but for now, the link is very good.

Exactly.

”Cave art was part of the package deal in terms of how homo sapienscame to have this very high-level cognitive processing,” says Miyagawa, a professor of linguistics and the Kochi-Manjiro Professor of Japanese Language and Culture at MIT. “

https://news.mit.edu/2018/humans-speak-through-cave-art-0221

Edited July 11, 2023 by The Puzzler

[jmccr8]

9 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

We are total pains….

Hi Puzzler

You too, my brothers, sister and myself all got them from my dad. 

[Piney]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Puzzler

You too, my brothers, sister and myself all got them from my dad. 

They helped me find my real dad.

10 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

We are total pains….

And they all came from a common ancestor who might of been the cave painter who had them. 

Oh Christ!!!! I'm related to you two...

[Abramelin]

22 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I disagree.  There are definitely artists alive today who could recreate the Lascaux paintings.  There are even artists alive today who could animate them without making them look cheap.  For their time they Lascaux paintings are simply phenomenal, but there is not one thing about them that elements of our culture today can't duplicate.  Of course it was something of a journey to get there...

I think Puzzler's point was that medieval art was inferior to stone age cave art. It's not about what modern artists are able to create.

[Alchopwn]

Just now, Abramelin said:

I think Puzzler's point was that medieval art was inferior to stone age cave art. It's not about what modern artists are able to create.

I took issue only with Puzzler's comment that artists today couldn't duplicate the work.  I don't think that's true. 

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I took issue only with Puzzler's comment that artists today couldn't duplicate the work.  I don't think that's true. 

Ah, ok.

I remember of a couple of years ago that artists DID duplicate cave art (France?) in an empty cave just for tourists, and by that draw away most visitors from the original cave with its original paintings. These original paintings suffered from all those gasses exhumed by tourists...

[Swede]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Ah, ok.

I remember of a couple of years ago that artists DID duplicate cave art (France?) in an empty cave just for tourists, and by that draw away most visitors from the original cave with its original paintings. These original paintings suffered from all those gasses exhumed by tourists...

Would you be meaning exhaled ?

.

[The Puzzler]

10 hours ago, Swede said:

Would you be meaning exhaled ?

.

“the breath and sweat of visitors created carbon dioxide and humidity that would damage the paintings.”…

[The Puzzler]

16 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Puzzler

You too, my brothers, sister and myself all got them from my dad. 

My Mum has it, I’m sure my Gran did and I have it but only my oldest child, the daughter, has it…my other two children have pinkies so straight, like their Dad you could rule a line on them….strange hey…PS Hi cuz xx

[The Puzzler]

OK I’m making light of it but maybe it is genetic changes like this that DO spur on humanity just that bit more…

[Alchopwn]

16 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Ah, ok.

I remember of a couple of years ago that artists DID duplicate cave art (France?) in an empty cave just for tourists, and by that draw away most visitors from the original cave with its original paintings. These original paintings suffered from all those gasses exhumed by tourists...

Creating duplicates is a great idea.  It is so sad that even just human breath can potentially destroy those ancient paintings. 

[The Puzzler]

Does anyone think the ‘rectangle with lines’ abstract symbol, that appears to be a body with four kegs… above the horse, might say “horse” or at least a letter pertaining to horse/equine.

[jmccr8]

7 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

My Mum has it, I’m sure my Gran did and I have it but only my oldest child, the daughter, has it…my other two children have pinkies so straight, like their Dad you could rule a line on them….strange hey…PS Hi cuz xx

Hi Puzzler

Both my kids and my grand daughter have them from me as weĺl as both my nefews and nieces. My dad used to joke the Mccr8's got things done by hook or by crook.

[Kenemet]

23 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I think Puzzler's point was that medieval art was inferior to stone age cave art. It's not about what modern artists are able to create.

Which is kind of a false dichotomy.  If you'd given them the time and the materials and the access to these materials then you'd see the same kinds of art.

Also, you're not really focused on these art works but on your concept (probably based on a limited number of samples) of how the art works.

THIS is medieval stained glass, for example

And this is medieval (Gothic) art: