The Great Pyramid's Greatest Secret (Hidden in Plain Sight)

[Doc Socks Junior]

On 7/25/2023 at 4:01 PM, Scott Creighton said:

There are now many scientific papers that have been published over the past 10 years or so that demonstrate (from a maths/physics analysis) that the Earth can indeed rapidly invert itself and that it can do so without requiring the catastrophic effect of a direct impact with another mass object, thereby vapourising all life on the planet. Indeed, the process involved - a very specific form of planetary precession - not only results in the Earth inverting north and south, but it also causes the sun to swap horizons (rising in the west and setting in the east).  And here's the kicker - it all happens without ever violating the law of the conservation of angular momentum. Yes, the sunrise changes horizon with the Earth continuing to rotate in the same direction.

There's some hint in here of a 'telephoned' view of true polar wander.

 

[Kenemet]

On 7/25/2023 at 4:49 PM, Scott Creighton said:

SC: I believe there once were Ka statues within the Great Pyramid - one for each of the 27 ancestor kings and queens of Khufu I believe will be found within the Big Void.  You can read my view on this here.

While your beliefs are interesting and are your (unsubstantiated) beliefs, they don't address the fact that ka statues were positioned to see things and if they'd wanted to see an area of the sky they would have positioned the ka statue to view it.

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SC: Many, many ancient sources, not just from Egypt but from all over the world, disagree with you. (referring to "inversion of the Earth")

Please do list some.  I don't know of any.

[Kenemet]

On 7/25/2023 at 6:01 PM, Scott Creighton said:

SC: That view may have held sway in the 20th century but it's outdated. There are now many scientific papers that have been published over the past 10 years or so that demonstrate (from a maths/physics analysis) that the Earth can indeed rapidly invert itself and that it can do so without requiring the catastrophic effect of a direct impact with another mass object, thereby vapourising all life on the planet. Indeed, the process involved - a very specific form of planetary precession - not only results in the Earth inverting north and south, but it also causes the sun to swap horizons (rising in the west and setting in the east).  And here's the kicker - it all happens without ever violating the law of the conservation of angular momentum. Yes, the sunrise changes horizon with the Earth continuing to rotate in the same direction.

I'd like to see some (any) of these papers.  Would like to check the math and the credentials.

[Scott Creighton]

11 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

 

Hi Lee,

Thank you again for taking the time to consider this hypothesis. However much we may disagree, as a serious and rigorous researcher and thinker, I do value your input here.

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SC: I agree. This doesn’t make much sense in the conventional/mainstream view of the shafts as ‘soul shafts’ or ‘gateways to the stars’.  But that is not what I am saying or how I view the purpose of the shafts. Allow me to explain further by way of example.

As previously stated, the open KC shafts are, imo, simply a means of providing the soul of the deceased with an easy exit from the pyramid whereupon it will find itself in the correct quadrant of the sky i.e. that region of the sky where Sah/Orion can be found. 

Lee: You seem to be contradicting yourself. The idea they are "soul shafts" is still bogus all the same. 

 

SC: Some clumsy wording on my part there. What I’m suggesting is that the KC shafts could be soul shafts (just as many Egyptologists believe). However, unlike the traditional view, I don’t believe that the shafts needed to be perfectly straight (i.e. with a clear, unobstructed path to Al Nitak) in order for the deceased’s soul to reach its destination. That’s the key difference that exists between my view and the traditional view. The traditional view implies that the soul didn’t really ‘know’ where it needed to go and had to be carefully ‘directed’ or ‘targeted’ with ‘precise’ shafts. I don’t accept that view. Although I have no evidence of this, I suggest that the soul ‘knew’ its stellar destination and simply required a means to exit the pyramid in the correct quadrant of the sky where Orion/Sah/Al Nitak could then be observed and the final journey made. So not really a contradiction, simply a more nuanced interpretation of the shafts.

In fact, the traditional view (of the shafts having to precisely target the destination star) is really a non-starter because, assuming the shaft passages were as clear as a gun-barrel and were angled to precisely target specific stars at the time the pyramid was being built (as per Badawy et al), precession would gradually shift the target stars out of alignment with the shafts – so (assuming precise targeting of the target star was essential in reaching the stellar destination), how then would the soul of the deceased reach its destination if the desired star (Al Nitak) no longer aligned with the shaft(s)? That is why I am suggesting that the KC shafts (assuming they are shafts for the soul) were probably built mainly as an exit for the deceased’s soul into that quarter of the sky where it could then find Sah/Orion/Al Nitak, and make its way onwards to that star (irrespective of precession subsequently misaligning the shafts from the stars). The soul exits the KC shaft, looks around, sees where Al Nitak is, and off it goes.

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Lee: That is quite a stretch Scott. Let's say for a moment the KC shafts were meant as soul shafts. Very important to the king. Yet from one end to the other the builders otherwise could care less about the King's journey and put all these bends, zig zags, and doors in his way for no apparent reason? To play the game where we can just make up whatever about these shafts, mainstream and alt/fringe alike, all of these impediments would have to have meaning and be part of the journey i.e. we assume the Duat which is pretty lame as well and doesn't explain the need for two (four really) shafts anyways.

SC: Maybe. However, the Surid legend tells us that the king placed his ancestors (plural) within the pyramid (possibly the Big Void, imo). If that is true, then I don’t think it’s too big a stretch to consider that the souls of these deceased kings might require an exit from the pyramid in order to ascend to their stellar destination. And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, this might also be the reason why we find these shaft features only in the GP (because only this pyramid would have burials within it with the re-interment of Khufu's ancestors from their less secure tombs that would likely have been washed away and the bodies destroyed in the foretold deluge).

What we do not understand, though, is why the shafts bear these twists and turns, the inconsistencies in inclination and so forth. It may have been for symbolic or functional reasons – we just don’t know. But if the soul of the deceased did indeed require an exit from the pyramid to then go onto Sah/Orion, then the twists and turns of the shafts do not negate this need. (Purely some blue sky thinking here and I’m not stating this as a belief of mine – it could be that after the inversion event, during the ongoing construction of the monument, the earth may still have been in a state of ‘flux’, the stars varying (oscillating) slightly in location/inclination before finally settling into a (new) regular course. As a result, the shafts had to change in order to follow the new ‘path’ of the target star - until changed again. Just a random thought).

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SC: The GP’s open shafts, imo, don’t need to ‘point’ or ‘target’ the specific star.

Lee: That's good news because they don't.

 

SC: “They don’t"  – because they don’t have to, imo.

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SC: I think it’s safe to assume that the soul would know which star it wishes to ascend to. It just needs to have an exit (an open shaft) from the pyramid that places it in the correct quadrant of the sky where, upon exit from the shaft, it can observe its final destination i.e. Sah/Orion in the southern sky of the northern hemisphere (pre-inversion) and in the northern sky of the southern hemisphere (i.e. the new post-inversion location of Sah/Osiris).

Lee: About this inversion business, in your video you say Surid had a dream the earth had overturned and the stars had veered off their normal course. His priests measured these stars which foretold a great Flood would come which is what prompted Surid to build G1. Meaning G1 was built post inversion, i.e. as it is today which seems to contradict your theory, no?

 

SC: I don’t see a contradiction. I’m actually observing what Ed Krupp said and pointed out to Robert Bauval many years ago:

“To make the map of the pyramids on the ground match the stars of Orion in the sky you have to turn Egypt upside down, and if you don’t want to do that then you have to turn the sky upside down.” – Dr Ed Krupp

I thought about Dr Krupp’s throwaway comment on Bauval’s OCT and thought to myself, “What if that is actually what happened?” – and I ran with it.

In other words – you build the pyramids when the Earth was inverted from what it is today (and of which it has subsequently righted itself). As the video also explains – Krupp’s inverted Earth perspective works not just with the ground layout but also with the directionality of the shafts (which was always an issue for Bauval’s proposal).

So, there are two possible Giza/Orion correlations - one with the Earth as it is today (Bauval’s perspective) and one when it is inverted (Krupp’s perspective). Both can be shown to make a correlation with Orion’s Belt but Krupp’s, imo, actually fits better overall than Bauval’s. A case of Bauval being right but for the wrong reason.

(For the avoidance of doubt – I am absolutely not saying here or implying that Krupp actually believes that the pyramids were built when the Earth was once inverted.  He absolutely does not believe that. All I’m saying is that he may have been closer to the truth than he ever realised, even if unwittingly so).

So yes, they would have been built post-inversion which I think the Surid legend also implies. (Note: The Earth has since been returned to upright. The video presents the Dodwell data which suggests a second inversion event occurred ~2345 BC (which turned the Earth to its present orientation. It’s a regular cyclical event, just as many ancient sources tell us).

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Lee: Which makes sense regardless because G1 is aligned almost perfectly to true north (not magnetic north) and all the OK pyramid align towards true north as do their descending passages align to the north celestial pole. If this was all done oriented to the south and the earth flipped how is this possible? 

SC: The legend of Surid suggests the Earth inversion occurred first (probably quite slowly initially, perhaps taking several years), and then the pyramids were built. Krupp’s observation of Bauval's OCT also suggests the monuments were built when the Earth had once been inverted (he was effectively trying to tell Bauval this for decades).

So how is it that the Gizamids are still almost perfectly aligned to the cardinal directions after the Earth ‘righted’ itself (in a subsequent inversion event)? Naturally, I do not have the actual answer to this but there are a couple of possibilities I can suggest. One of them is dependent on the type of inversion that occurs.

If the Earth inverts together with its axis of rotation, then there are no latitudinal or longitudinal changes from the poles – the cardinal directions would not change and alignments to them would not change. The second option is that the Earth precesses through its axis (i.e. the axis remains fixed in space and does not invert with the Earth) and only the body of the Earth inverts by a particular amount and then reverses itself in a second inversion event in the same manner and by the same amount. (This latter possibility is what the four GP shafts seem to be suggesting – as the video demonstrates, there is a symmetry between the four shafts (a flip-flop of the planet by 174°) that only arises when we invert the northern aspect of the pyramid. I think this may offer a possible answer to your question but I think it certainly requires more research.

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SC: Not sure.  I suspect though, if we measured from the first millimetre of where each QC shaft began its incline to the last millimetre at the top of the shaft, and then drew a line between these two points, we would probably find that they created a straight line that was very close to an inclination of 39°. If Gantenbrink’s drawings are still available somewhere, perhaps this could be measured?

Lee: I don't see how any of them could be even close to a straight line…

 

SC: What I’m saying Lee is that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. Take a cross-section drawing of the GP. Place a point at the bottom of one of the shaft inclines and another at the top. Draw a line between the points and you will arrive at what we actually observe in most cross-section drawings of the GP shafts.

Each set of shafts starts at the same height and terminates at the same height. This suggests to me that (irrespective of their twists and turns), the builders desired these specific angles. So, while the shafts twist and turn, we can still extrapolate an ‘intended’ or ‘desired’ angle from them (which, imo, was about providing the soul of the deceased with knowledge as to when an inversion event was due to occur and, thereafter, where Sah/Orion/Al Nitak would be relocated to). Can I prove any of this? No, of course not. Though I think if the GP's Big Void is found to contain the ancestor kings of Surid (aka Khufu), then that, imo, will go some way to proving there's more to that particular legend than is presently believed, including its suggestion of an Earth inversion having occurred.

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Lee: I think its bunk and no one has ever known and just made assumptions to make whatever theory they wanted work.

SC: I don’t actually disagree with this.

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SC: So long as the shaft exits take the soul of the deceased to the right quadrant of the sky i.e. where Sah/Orion will be found, that’s all that mattered – imo.

Lee: Bah. It is absolute nonsense to take no responsibility for all that is in the middle just as long as the first few mm and last few mm may or may not have the same angle assuming they even remotely line up from one end to the other in the first place which apparently no one really knows. Doesn't make it right, but its ok though- you are not alone.

 

SC: As I said above, we likely will never know the reason for the twists and turns of the shafts. But that does not negate that the soul may very well have required a means to exit the pyramid and be placed in the correct quadrant of the sky i.e. that quadrant where it could find Sah/Orion/Al Nitak, and make its onward journey to it stellar destination. IMO.

SC

 

 

Edited July 27 by Scott Creighton

[Hanslune]

28 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Hi Lee,

Thank you again for taking the time to consider this hypothesis. However much we may disagree, as a serious and rigorous researcher and thinker, I do value your input here.

SC: Some clumsy wording on my part there. What I’m suggesting is that the KC shafts could be soul shafts (just as many Egyptologists believe). However, unlike the traditional view, I don’t believe that the shafts needed to be perfectly straight (i.e. with a clear, unobstructed path to Al Nitak) in order for the deceased’s soul to reach its destination. That’s the key difference that exists between my view and the traditional view. The traditional view implies that the soul didn’t really ‘know’ where it needed to go and had to be carefully ‘directed’ or ‘targeted’ with ‘precise’ shafts. I don’t accept that view. Although I have no evidence of this, I suggest that the soul ‘knew’ its stellar destination and simply required a means to exit the pyramid in the correct quadrant of the sky where Orion/Sah/Al Nitak could then be observed and the final journey made. So not really a contradiction, simply a more nuanced interpretation of the shafts.

In fact, the traditional view (of the shafts having to precisely target the destination star) is really a non-starter because, assuming the shaft passages were as clear as a gun-barrel and were angled to precisely target specific stars at the time the pyramid was being built (as per Badawy et al), precession would gradually shift the target stars out of alignment with the shafts – so (assuming precise targeting of the target star was essential in reaching the stellar destination), how then would the soul of the deceased reach its destination if the desired star (Al Nitak) no longer aligned with the shaft(s)? That is why I am suggesting that the KC shafts (assuming they are shafts for the soul) were probably built mainly as an exit for the deceased’s soul into that quarter of the sky where it could then find Sah/Orion/Al Nitak, and make its way onwards to that star (irrespective of precession subsequently misaligning the shafts from the stars). The soul exits the KC shaft, looks around, sees where Al Nitak is, and off it goes.

SC: Maybe. However, the Surid legend tells us that the king placed his ancestors (plural) within the pyramid (possibly the Big Void, imo). If that is true, then I don’t think it’s too big a stretch to consider that the souls of these deceased kings might require an exit from the pyramid in order to ascend to their stellar destination. And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, this might also be the reason why we find these shaft features only in the GP (because only this pyramid would have burials within it with the re-interment of Khufu's ancestors from their less secure tombs that would likely have been washed away and the bodies destroyed in the foretold deluge).

What we do not understand, though, is why the shafts bear these twists and turns, the inconsistencies in inclination and so forth. It may have been for symbolic or functional reasons – we just don’t know. But if the soul of the deceased did indeed require an exit from the pyramid to then go onto Sah/Orion, then the twists and turns of the shafts do not negate this need. (Purely some blue sky thinking here and I’m not stating this as a belief of mine – it could be that after the inversion event, during the ongoing construction of the monument, the earth may still have been in a state of ‘flux’, the stars varying (oscillating) slightly in location/inclination before finally settling into a (new) regular course. As a result, the shafts had to change in order to follow the new ‘path’ of the target star - until changed again. Just a random thought).

SC: “They don’t"  – because they don’t have to, imo.

SC: I don’t see a contradiction. I’m actually observing what Ed Krupp said and pointed out to Robert Bauval many years ago:

“To make the map of the pyramids on the ground match the stars of Orion in the sky you have to turn Egypt upside down, and if you don’t want to do that then you have to turn the sky upside down.” – Dr Ed Krupp

I thought about Dr Krupp’s throwaway comment on Bauval’s OCT and thought to myself, “What if that is actually what happened?” – and I ran with it.

In other words – you build the pyramids when the Earth was inverted from what it is today (and of which it has subsequently righted itself). As the video also explains – Krupp’s inverted Earth perspective works not just with the ground layout but also with the directionality of the shafts (which was always an issue for Bauval’s proposal).

So, there are two possible Giza/Orion correlations - one with the Earth as it is today (Bauval’s perspective) and one when it is inverted (Krupp’s perspective). Both can be shown to make a correlation with Orion’s Belt but Krupp’s, imo, actually fits better overall than Bauval’s. A case of Bauval being right but for the wrong reason.

(For the avoidance of doubt – I am absolutely not saying here or implying that Krupp actually believes that the pyramids were built when the Earth was once inverted.  He absolutely does not believe that. All I’m saying is that he may have been closer to the truth than he ever realised, even if unwittingly so).

So yes, they would have been built post-inversion which I think the Surid legend also implies. (Note: The Earth has since been returned to upright. The video presents the Dodwell data which suggests a second inversion event occurred ~2345 BC (which turned the Earth to its present orientation. It’s a regular cyclical event, just as many ancient sources tell us).

SC: The legend of Surid suggests the Earth inversion occurred first (probably quite slowly, perhaps taking several years), and then the pyramids were built. Krupp’s observation of Bauval's OCT also suggests the monumnets were built when the Earth had once been inverted (he was effectively trying to tell Bauval this for decades).

So how is it that the Gizamids are still almost perfectly aligned to the cardinal directions after the Earth ‘righted’ itself (in a subsequent inversion event)? Naturally, I do not have the actual answer to this but there are a couple of possibilities I can suggest. One of them is dependent on the type of inversion that occurs.

If the Earth inverts together with its axis of rotation, then there are no latitudinal or longitudinal changes from the poles – the cardinal directions would not change and alignments to them would not change. The second option is that the Earth precesses through its axis (i.e. the axis remains fixed in space and does not invert with the Earth) and only the body of the Earth inverts by a particular amount and then reverses itself in a second inversion event in the same manner and by the same amount. (This latter possibility is what the four GP shafts seem to be suggesting – as the video demonstrates, there is a symmetry between the four shafts (a flip-flop of the planet by 174°) that only arises when we invert the northern aspect of the pyramid. I think this may offer a possible answer to your question but I think it certainly requires more research.

SC: What I’m saying Lee is that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. Take a cross-section drawing of the GP. Place a point at the bottom of one of the shaft inclines and another at the top. Draw a line between the points and you will arrive at what we actually observe in most cross-section drawings of the GP shafts.

Each set of shafts starts at the same height and terminates at the same height. This suggests to me that (irrespective of their twists and turns), the builders desired these specific angles. So, while the shafts twist and turn, we can still extrapolate an ‘intended’ or ‘desired’ angle from them (which, imo, was about providing the soul of the deceased with knowledge as to when an inversion event was due to occur and, thereafter, where Sah/Orion/Al Nitak would be relocated to). Can I prove any of this? No, of course not. Though I think if the GP's Big Void is found to contain the ancestor kings of Surid (aka Khufu), then that, imo, will go some way to proving there's more to that particular legend than is presently believed, including its suggestion of an Earth inversion having occurred.

SC: I don’t actually disagree with this.

SC: As I said above, we likely will never know the reason for the twists and turns of the shafts. But that does not negate that the soul may very well have required a means to exit the pyramid and be placed in the correct quadrant of the sky i.e. that quadrant where it could find Sah/Orion/Al Nitak, and make its onward journey to it stellar destination. IMO.

SC

 

 

As noted: how does the Earth invert with the Moon being tidally locked with it and both them orbiting  about their baycentre which lies about 4,670 km from Earth's center (about 70% of its radius)? Also where are the links to support your claims of sources that support this idea?

[Tom1200]

1 hour ago, Scott Creighton said:

If the Earth inverts together with its axis of rotation, then there are no latitudinal or longitudinal changes from the poles – the cardinal directions would not change and alignments to them would not change. The second option is that the Earth precesses through its axis (i.e. the axis remains fixed in space and does not invert with the Earth) and only the body of the Earth inverts by a particular amount and then reverses itself in a second inversion event in the same manner and by the same amount. (This latter possibility is what the four GP shafts seem to be suggesting – as the video demonstrates, there is a symmetry between the four shafts (a flip-flop of the planet by 174°) that only arises when we invert the northern aspect of the pyramid. I think this may offer a possible answer to your question but I think it certainly requires more research.

Scott.

Scott.

How do I say this kindly?

This is total, utter, flupping nonsense.

I like to step in to correct foolish gibberish masquerading as science.  Sometimes it's actually quite difficult to explain why a suggestion is completely impossible.  This ain't one of those occasions: what you're proposing is just downright wrong.  Please stop embarrassing yourself. 

For anything like this to happen would require forces so huge as to rip the crust apart.  The energy transfers needed would melt solid rock.  Gawd alone knows what would happen to the oceans and atmosphere - probably evaporate into space and lost forever.

There's a reason why you can't find answers to this on t'internet: it's because it's so completely flupping stupid that nobody's wasted their time calculating it. 

Didn't happen, can't happen, won't happen.  No more 'research' is required. 

 

[Hanslune]

3 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

Scott.

Scott.

How do I say this kindly?

This is total, utter, flupping nonsense.

I like to step in to correct foolish gibberish masquerading as science.  Sometimes it's actually quite difficult to explain why a suggestion is completely impossible.  This ain't one of those occasions: what you're proposing is just downright wrong.  Please stop embarrassing yourself. 

For anything like this to happen would require forces so huge as to rip the crust apart.  The energy transfers needed would melt solid rock.  Gawd alone knows what would happen to the oceans and atmosphere - probably evaporate into space and lost forever.

There's a reason why you can't find answers to this on t'internet: it's because it's so completely flupping stupid that nobody's wasted their time calculating it. 

Didn't happen, can't happen, won't happen.  No more 'research' is required. 

 

Yeah I did look a bit at the combined weight of the Moon and Earth and the energy requires to move them - the mass of the earth & moon is 10²⁴ kg x 6.04546 or rounded to 3,001,000,000,000,000,000,000, metric tons....approximately

[Thanos5150]

10 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

For anything like this to happen would require forces so huge as to rip the crust apart. 

I don't mean to be crass, but I had quite a large spicy bean and cheese burrito the other day, and if I ate a few more I really think I could have gotten this done. 

[Scott Creighton]

 “The theory about ‘how the world began’ seems to involve the breaking asunder of a harmony, a kind of cosmogonic ‘original sin’ whereby the circle of the ecliptic (with the zodiac) was tilted up at an angle with respect to the equator, and the cycles of change came into being.” - Hamlet’s Mill, de Santillana 1983, 5.

Traditions of an Ancient Earth Inversion Event

There are many more of these ancient traditions but I hope the following will give you a flavour of what our ancient ancestors witnessed in remote antiquity.

Worlds in Collision, Velikovsky:

• In the second book of his history, Herodotus relates his conversations with Egyptian priests on his visit to Egypt. . . . The priests asserted that within historical ages and since Egypt became a kingdom, four times in this period (so they told me) the sun rose contrary to his wont; twice he rose where he now sets, and twice he set where he now rises.
• Pomponius Mela, a Latin author of the first century, wrote: “the course of the stars has changed direction four times, and that the sun has set twice in that part of the sky where it rises today.”
• The Magical Papyrus Harris speaks of a cosmic upheaval of fire and water when “the south becomes north, and the Earth turns over.”
• In the Papyrus Ipuwer it is similarly stated that “the land turns round [over] as does a potter’s wheel” and the “Earth turned upside down.”
• In the Ermitage Papyrus (Leningrad, 1116b recto) also, reference is made to a catastrophe that turned the “land upside down.”
• Harakhte is the Egyptian name for the western sun. . . . The inscriptions do not leave any room for misunderstanding: “Harakhte, he riseth in the west.”
• The texts found in the pyramids say that the luminary [the sun] “ceased to live in the occident [the west], and shines, a new one, in the orient [the east].”
• Plato wrote in his dialogue, “The Statesman” (Politicus) “I mean the change in the rising and setting of the sun and the other heavenly bodies, how in those times they used to set in the quarter where they now rise, and used to rise where they now set. . . . At certain periods the universe has its present circular motion, and at other periods it revolves in the reverse direction… Of all the changes which take place in the heavens this reversal is the greatest and most complete… There is at that time great destruction of animals in general, and only a small part of the human race survives.”
• According to a short fragment of a historical drama by Sophocles (Atreus), the sun rises in the east is only since its course was reversed. “Zeus . . . changed the course of the sun, causing it to rise in the east and not in the west.”
• Caius Julius Solinus, a Latin author of the third century of the present era, wrote of the people living on the southern borders of Egypt: “The inhabitants of this country say that they have it from their ancestors that the sun now sets where it formerly rose.”
• “The Chinese say that it is only since a new order of things has come about that the stars move from east to west. . . . The signs of the Chinese zodiac have the strange peculiarity of proceeding in a retrograde direction, that is, against the course of the sun.”
• The Eskimos of Greenland told missionaries that in an ancient time the earth turned over and the people who lived then became antipodes.
• In Tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud it is said: “Seven days before the deluge, the Holy One changed the primeval order and the sun rose in the west and set in the east.”
• The Egyptian papyrus known as Papyrus Anastasi IV contains a complaint about gloom and the absence of solar light; it says also: “The winter is come as (instead of) summer, the months are reversed, and the hours disordered.” - Velikovsky, Worlds in Collision, 105–13, 120.

• “Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals.” - Plato, Timaeus.

Biblical Sources:

• “So, the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.” – Joshua 10:13
• “Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down. . . . The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard . . . and it shall fall, and not rise again.” - Isaiah, 24:1, 20, KJV
• “And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.” - Amos, 8:8–9, KJV.
• “And Noah saw that the Earth had tilted and that its destruction was near.” – Book of Noah, 65:1
• “The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.” – Revelation 8:12

Modern Authors:

• “The pillars of heaven were broken and the corners of the earth gave way. Hereupon Nu Kua melted stones of the five colours to repair the heavens, and cut off the feet of the tortoise to set upright the four extremities of the earth. Gathering the ashes of reeds she stopped the flooding waters and thus rescued the land of Chi.” - Werner, Myths and Legends of China, 56.
• “The earth shook to its foundations. The sky sank lower towards the north. The sun, moon and stars changed their motions. The earth fell to pieces and the waters in its bosom uprushed with violence and overflowed . . . the system of the universe was totally disordered.” - Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, 31.
• “This time he ordered the Twins, Poquanghoya and Palongawhoya, to leave their stations at the North and South poles and let the world be destroyed. . . . After the Twins left their stations, the world’s stability was removed and so it flipped end over end and everything on it was destroyed by ice.” – John White, Pole Shift, 277.
• “Seneca seems to have described an ancient pole shift in “Thyestes” when lamenting over the sun god Apollo’s odd behavior: “You’ve fled back and plunged the broken day out of the sky… And sent night from the east at a strange time to bury the foul horror in a new darkness…  Sun, where have you gone?  How could you get lost half way through the sky?  …The way things take turns in the world has stopped… I’m stuck with terror in case it’s all collapsing… The zodiac’s falling… Have we been chosen… to have the world smash and fall upon us?” -  David Montaigne, Pole Shift: Evidence Will Not Be Silenced, 90.
• “The Toltecs in ancient Mexico had a similar story about how the sun stood still for a day.” – Mark Gaffney, Deep History and the Ages of Man, 209.

SC

Edited July 28 by Scott Creighton

[Hanslune]

Really? Velikovsky as a source? Other that biblical you didn't link to the actual quote - one that I know off hand

https://archive.org/stream/horusinpyramidt01allegoog/horusinpyramidt01allegoog_djvu.txt

Harakhte, he riseth in the west., I'm not finding that

Again, explain to us in scientific terms how the moon-earth system can be flipped over?

Another in context

Timaeus: There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us.

Edited July 28 by Hanslune

[Thanos5150]

On 7/27/2023 at 10:04 AM, Scott Creighton said:

SC: Maybe. However, the Surid legend tells us that the king placed his ancestors (plural) within the pyramid (possibly the Big Void, imo). If that is true, then I don’t think it’s too big a stretch to consider that the souls of these deceased kings might require an exit from the pyramid in order to ascend to their stellar destination. And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, this might also be the reason why we find these shaft features only in the GP (because only this pyramid would have burials within it with the re-interment of Khufu's ancestors from their less secure tombs that would likely have been washed away and the bodies destroyed in the foretold deluge).

They do have an exit-the descending passage which is aligned to the Imperishable Ones- right where they need to go. To us it is descending, to the pharaoh supposedly buried in the tomb it is ascending. Every pyramid has one, only G1 has chamber shafts which regardless of any "theory" clearly appear to serve an otherwise real world utilitarian, not symbolic function. No matter how one looks at it, regardless of the theory, it makes no sense on any level these shafts would function in any capacity as "soul shafts". 

And in your scenario these 12/13 kings all use these shafts? You've seen Ghostbusters I assume-if only from a slime hygiene perspective this is pretty gross. 

Quote

So yes, they would have been built post-inversion which I think the Surid legend also implies. (Note: The Earth has since been returned to upright. The video presents the Dodwell data which suggests a second inversion event occurred ~2345 BC (which turned the Earth to its present orientation. It’s a regular cyclical event, just as many ancient sources tell us).

That is not the sequence of events from your video. Again:

About this inversion business, in your video you say Surid had a dream the earth had overturned and the stars had veered off their normal course.

[Which then] His priests measured these stars [the ones that had overturned in Surid's dream which apparently was now reality] which foretold a great Flood would come which is what prompted Surid to build G1.

At what point after building G1 does he mention this inversion? 

Quote

SC: What I’m saying Lee is that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. Take a cross-section drawing of the GP. Place a point at the bottom of one of the shaft inclines and another at the top. Draw a line between the points and you will arrive at what we actually observe in most cross-section drawings of the GP shafts. Each set of shafts starts at the same height and terminates at the same height. This suggests to me that (irrespective of their twists and turns), the builders desired these specific angles. So, while the shafts twist and turn, we can still extrapolate an ‘intended’ or ‘desired’ angle from them (which, imo, was about providing the soul of the deceased with knowledge as to when an inversion event was due to occur and, thereafter, where Sah/Orion/Al Nitak would be relocated to). Can I prove any of this? No, of course not. Though I think if the GP's Big Void is found to contain the ancestor kings of Surid (aka Khufu), then that, imo, will go some way to proving there's more to that particular legend than is presently believed, including its suggestion of an Earth inversion having occurred.

See above and any previous posts. 

Edited July 28 by Thanos5150

[Kenemet]

9 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

 

Modern Authors:

• “The pillars of heaven were broken and the corners of the earth gave way. Hereupon Nu Kua melted stones of the five colours to repair the heavens, and cut off the feet of the tortoise to set upright the four extremities of the earth. Gathering the ashes of reeds she stopped the flooding waters and thus rescued the land of Chi.” - Werner, Myths and Legends of China, 56.
• “The earth shook to its foundations. The sky sank lower towards the north. The sun, moon and stars changed their motions. The earth fell to pieces and the waters in its bosom uprushed with violence and overflowed . . . the system of the universe was totally disordered.” - Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, 31.
• “This time he ordered the Twins, Poquanghoya and Palongawhoya, to leave their stations at the North and South poles and let the world be destroyed. . . . After the Twins left their stations, the world’s stability was removed and so it flipped end over end and everything on it was destroyed by ice.” – John White, Pole Shift, 277.
• “Seneca seems to have described an ancient pole shift in “Thyestes” when lamenting over the sun god Apollo’s odd behavior: “You’ve fled back and plunged the broken day out of the sky… And sent night from the east at a strange time to bury the foul horror in a new darkness…  Sun, where have you gone?  How could you get lost half way through the sky?  …The way things take turns in the world has stopped… I’m stuck with terror in case it’s all collapsing… The zodiac’s falling… Have we been chosen… to have the world smash and fall upon us?” -  David Montaigne, Pole Shift: Evidence Will Not Be Silenced, 90.
• “The Toltecs in ancient Mexico had a similar story about how the sun stood still for a day.” – Mark Gaffney, Deep History and the Ages of Man, 209.

(sigh)  Scott, your sources are not impeccable.  They're very very 'peccable.'

Pomponius  Mela's books are available in translation on the Internet.  Links at the bottom of Wikipedia.  No such quote that I find: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomponius_Mela

The quote from the Hermitage papyrus is wrong - he is speaking of the social order.  If you read the whole thing, the "land is topsy turvy" is followed by The weak of arm is (now) the possessor of an arm. Men (55) salute (respectfully) him who (formerly) saluted. I show thee the undermost on top, turned about in proportion to the turning about of my belly.  "  http://www.archaeologicalresource.com/Books_and_Articles/Literature/pPetersburg1116B_Neferti.html?i=1

Horakhty is the god of the rising sun as well as the setting sun, and specifically the god of the sun as seen from the necropolis: https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/horakhty/

 

Quote

In the Papyrus Ipuwer it is similarly stated that “the land turns round [over] as does a potter’s wheel” and the “Earth turned upside down.

Scott, potters wheels don't turn over.  They do turn around.  It's clear that this is what's meant.  There is no phrase "earth turned upside down" https://www.bibleblender.com/2020/biblical-lessons/biblical-history/ancient-texts/complete-translation-ancient-egypt-ipuwer-papyrus  Nor is the phrase in the Harris papyrus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_Harris_I

As for ancient beliefs, recall that they also believed that there were people who had only one giant foot, people with mouths in their stomachs, that winged penises flew around and impregnated women (this is Roman, of course), that giant ants dug up gold and the gryphons hoarded it, and so on and so forth. 

Also, there's no such thing as "Eskimos."  That's an outdated term for several different groups of people living near the Arctic circle and there's no recording of such a belief among any of them that I've seen (so far.)

And the Bible as a source?  It's got talking snakes, talking donkeys (Numbers 22), a fabrication of mass enslavement of Hebrews in Egypt and a mass exodus thereof (Exodus), God is losing a wrestling match with Jacob so he cheats (Genesis 32) and in addition can't overcome iron chariots (Judges 1:19), Jonah living inside a fish for 3 days (Jonah), flying insects with 4 legs (they have six), that there's a solid roof over the Earth (firmament) etcetera.  It's hardly a reliable book on anything.

The "Modern Authors" section is equally problematic.

• Myths and Legends of China is just that... folktales and legends.  Not history and not scientific observation (they were one of the first with writing. 
• Wilkins has no actual sources for his claims.
• John White's claim about Poquanghoya and Palongawhoya somehow misses the fact that people were living in anthills with ants http://railsback.org/CS/CSFourCreations.html -- if the Earth had flipped over, living underground with the ants wouldn't have helped,
• Other myths are taken in pieces... the rest of the myths are somehow not true but this one fragment that the writer feels supports a flipping Earth IS taken as true.

That's not evidence.  That's wistful thinking.

You insisted that there were modern scientific papers that talked about how the Earth flipped over... none of these qualifies.  The tale of Puss In Boots is not considered evidence for talking cats.  Nothing in what you've cited is evidence for a flipped world.

 

 

 

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

(sigh)  Scott, your sources are not impeccable.  They're very very 'peccable.'

Pomponius  Mela's books are available in translation on the Internet.  Links at the bottom of Wikipedia.  No such quote that I find: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomponius_Mela

The quote from the Hermitage papyrus is wrong - he is speaking of the social order.  If you read the whole thing, the "land is topsy turvy" is followed by The weak of arm is (now) the possessor of an arm. Men (55) salute (respectfully) him who (formerly) saluted. I show thee the undermost on top, turned about in proportion to the turning about of my belly.  "  http://www.archaeologicalresource.com/Books_and_Articles/Literature/pPetersburg1116B_Neferti.html?i=1

Horakhty is the god of the rising sun as well as the setting sun, and specifically the god of the sun as seen from the necropolis: https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/horakhty/

 

Scott, potters wheels don't turn over.  They do turn around.  It's clear that this is what's meant.  There is no phrase "earth turned upside down" https://www.bibleblender.com/2020/biblical-lessons/biblical-history/ancient-texts/complete-translation-ancient-egypt-ipuwer-papyrus  Nor is the phrase in the Harris papyrus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_Harris_I

As for ancient beliefs, recall that they also believed that there were people who had only one giant foot, people with mouths in their stomachs, that winged penises flew around and impregnated women (this is Roman, of course), that giant ants dug up gold and the gryphons hoarded it, and so on and so forth. 

Also, there's no such thing as "Eskimos."  That's an outdated term for several different groups of people living near the Arctic circle and there's no recording of such a belief among any of them that I've seen (so far.)

And the Bible as a source?  It's got talking snakes, talking donkeys (Numbers 22), a fabrication of mass enslavement of Hebrews in Egypt and a mass exodus thereof (Exodus), God is losing a wrestling match with Jacob so he cheats (Genesis 32) and in addition can't overcome iron chariots (Judges 1:19), Jonah living inside a fish for 3 days (Jonah), flying insects with 4 legs (they have six), that there's a solid roof over the Earth (firmament) etcetera.  It's hardly a reliable book on anything.

The "Modern Authors" section is equally problematic.

• Myths and Legends of China is just that... folktales and legends.  Not history and not scientific observation (they were one of the first with writing. 
• Wilkins has no actual sources for his claims.
• John White's claim about Poquanghoya and Palongawhoya somehow misses the fact that people were living in anthills with ants http://railsback.org/CS/CSFourCreations.html -- if the Earth had flipped over, living underground with the ants wouldn't have helped,
• Other myths are taken in pieces... the rest of the myths are somehow not true but this one fragment that the writer feels supports a flipping Earth IS taken as true.

That's not evidence.  That's wistful thinking.

You insisted that there were modern scientific papers that talked about how the Earth flipped over... none of these qualifies.  The tale of Puss In Boots is not considered evidence for talking cats.  Nothing in what you've cited is evidence for a flipped world.

 

 

 

I think the term is 'Pecky. As I noted his V source was well know for making not being altogether trustworthy, very pecky.  Scott - Serious question did you check these quotes? Or did you in, finest of fringe style, accept what another fringe writer claimed, because you liked what they said, instead of checking them? Wait maybe he's being very clever and lazy, and he's having us check them for him since it beyond him to actually do, you know, research? 

Edited July 29 by Hanslune

[Wepwawet]

15 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

 

• In the Papyrus Ipuwer it is similarly stated that “the land turns round [over] as does a potter’s wheel” and the “Earth turned upside down.”
• Harakhte is the Egyptian name for the western sun. . . . The inscriptions do not leave any room for misunderstanding: “Harakhte, he riseth in the west.”

 

This is reiterating Kenemet's post.

Ipuwer is misquoted as it does not say that the Earth has "turned upside down", and I'll quote from "A World Upturned - The Dialoogue of Ipuwer and the Lord of All" by Roland Enmarch. So, see the title, slam dunk eh, the world "turned upside down" the title says it all, doesn't it? No, Ipuwer is writing about a chaotic situation in Egypt where the social order was turned upside down. The actual verse from the papyrus reads:

"O, yet the land spins around as does a potter's wheel; the robber is an owner of wealth, having become a plunderer." Why would you skip over the part that shows that the poor man, the robber, has traded places with the rich man, an upturning of the social order? well we all know why.

Horakhty, or Harakhte if you want, means "horizons", Ra-Horakhty is the "Ra-Horus of the horizons". The rising Sun, in the East, is Khepri, or Horus, the Sun in the West, the setting Sun, is Atum. I'm sure you know this, so why attempt to say that "Harakhte" is the word for the Western Sun. Please provide the text in full so that we can all read it and see the context.

Edited July 29 by Wepwawet

[Windowpane]

6 hours ago, Kenemet said:

...

And the Bible as a source?  It's got talking snakes, talking donkeys (Numbers 22), a fabrication of mass enslavement of Hebrews in Egypt and a mass exodus thereof (Exodus), God is losing a wrestling match with Jacob so he cheats (Genesis 32) and in addition can't overcome iron chariots (Judges 1:19), Jonah living inside a fish for 3 days (Jonah), flying insects with 4 legs (they have six), that there's a solid roof over the Earth (firmament) etcetera.  It's hardly a reliable book on anything.

...

 

  Well ... spiritual truths, maybe ...  But historical fact: it struggles a bit.

A couple of excerpts from Scott's post:

"“So, the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.” – Joshua 10:13"

Joshua 10 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_10

Quote

This chapter focuses on the conquest of southern part of Canaan by the Israelites under the leadership of Joshua

So not too much emphasis on, or evidence for, pole-flipping.

Moving on:

"“And Noah saw that the Earth had tilted and that its destruction was near.” – Book of Noah, 65:1"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Noah

Quote

The Book of Noah is thought to be a non-extant Old Testament pseudepigraphal work, attributed to Noah. It is quoted in several places in another pseudepigraphal work, 1 Enoch,[1] and is mentioned in another, the Book of Jubilees.[2] There have also been fragments attributed to a Book of Noah in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Fragment 4Q534 of the Book of Noah in the Dead sea scrolls, meanwhile, seems to be more interested in the Messiah's birthmarks than a realistic description of the inversion of the poles.

Etc. etc.: what you (Kenemet) said ...

[Wepwawet]

18 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

• Harakhte is the Egyptian name for the western sun. . . . The inscriptions do not leave any room for misunderstanding: “Harakhte, he riseth in the west.”

 

Are you sure the inscriptions do not leave any room for misunderstanding? are you sure that "Harakhte" is the name for the western sun?. I'll post this image of Nefertari sitting behind Ra-Horakhty, and draw attention to the column of hieroglyphs to the right of the sundisk on the god's head and the upper three sets of signs, that is all the signs above the two signs for "house". What does this say, and is there any room for misunderstanding.

Edited July 29 by Wepwawet

[Scott Creighton]

4 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

 

Yes, there’s some low hanging fruit there for the naysayers to quibble with in that list. Which is fair enough. There are certainly some quotes in there that can have another, even more likely, interpretation, and I can see that. But let's consider some of the others:

Quote

 

 "And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.”

“The Toltecs in ancient Mexico had a similar story about how the sun stood still for a day.”

 

Any naysayer here care to explain how this might be possible to observe (other than invoking an Earth inversion event, of course)? Shall I take a guess at your response?  "They were all just hallucinating." What if it wasn't hallucination and this really was observed - how do you explain it?

Quote

"The priests asserted that within historical ages and since Egypt became a kingdom, four times in this period (so they told me) the sun rose contrary to his wont; twice he rose where he now sets, and twice he set where he now rises."

“The inhabitants of this country say that they have it from their ancestors that the sun now sets where it formerly rose.”

Again, any naysayer care to explain how this might be possible to observe (other than invoking an Earth inversion event, of course)? Shall I take another guess at your response? "They were all just hallucinating."  What if it wasn't hallucination and this really was observed - how do you explain it?

Horakhty – Horus of the two Horizons. Knowing that the ancient Egyptians revered birth/rebirth and abhorred death, it seems odd to me that the term ‘Horus of the two horizons’ would refer to sunrise and sunset. My view is that it references only the sunrise. 

Quote

“As Horakhty (Horakhti, Harakhty), or “Horus of the two horizons”, Horus was the god of the rising and setting sun, specifically the god of the east and the sunrise . . .” (my emphasis from here.)

Yes, Horakhty (Horus of the two horizons) as understood by Egyptology, is the god of the rising sun (east) and the god of the setting sun (west).  But reading between the lines here - why is Horakhty “specifically the god of the east and the sunrise”? This implies Horakhty is more or mainly associated with sunrise than he is with the sunset, and that sunset was just some kind of add-on or after-thought.

So why would sunset (the second horizon) have been an ‘add-on’? Well, Egyptology had to somehow explain the “two horizons” reference and, imo, they simply assumed that the second (‘unspecific’) horizon must refer to the sunset because, in their simplistic view of things, what other horizon could it possibly be?

If, however, we invoke an Earth inversion, then there is a second horizon involved – and it’s a second horizon that is entirely associated with the sunrise, though now on the opposite (western) horizon. We are told that Horakhty is specifically the god of sunrise. When the Earth is upright (its present condition) Horakhty is the god of the sunrise on the eastern horizon.  When the Earth becomes inverted, Horakhty then becomes the god of the sunrise but now on the opposite western horizon. ‘Horus of the Two Horizons’ and as Horakhty, “specifically” with ‘sunrise’ on these two horizons. It was never about sunset, imo. But Egyptology, even though it knew Horakhty was mainly associated with the sunrise, had to find a way of explaining the second horizon, and so they assumed, imo, it had to refer to the sunset.  

Which I think is why we find the sign for ‘rising sun’ (akhet) associated with the Sphinx (Horemakhet) facing two opposite directions (at the top section of the Dream Stele). This isn’t, imo, the Sphinx facing sunrise and sunset, as Egyptology would have us believe. It depicts, imo, the Sphinx facing the horizon that is specifically associated with sunrise - on two opposite horizons (east and west) i.e. pre and post inversion.

Quote

Wepawet: Are you sure the inscriptions do not leave any room for misunderstanding? are you sure that "Harakhte" is the name for the western sun?

See above. 

SC

Edited July 29 by Scott Creighton

[Scott Creighton]

19 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

They do have an exit-the descending passage which is aligned to the Imperishable Ones- right where they need to go. To us it is descending, to the pharaoh supposedly buried in the tomb it is ascending. Every pyramid has one, only G1 has chamber shafts which regardless of any "theory" clearly appear to serve an otherwise real world utilitarian, not symbolic function. No matter how one looks at it, regardless of the theory, it makes no sense on any level these shafts would function in any capacity as "soul shafts". 

How do you know that the Descending Passage was intended to align with the Imperishable Ones (the circumpolar region of the sky)?  The Pyramid Texts tell us that to reach the Imperishable Ones, the king's soul had to embark upon the boat of Sah/Osiris and to then be ferried across the sky to the region of the circumpolar region. It seems that the journey was first via Sah/Osiris/Orion and then onwards to the circumpolar stars.

That every pyramid has a passage 'pointing' to the circumpolar region, isn't proof that it was the circumpolar region that was being 'targeted'. There could be other reasons. If, for example, the Earth was inverted and the pyramids were built at that time (as Krupp's analysis of Bauval's OCT implies), then it could simply be that the small shafts were associated with the star Al Nitak (yes, all four of them) and that the Descending Passage was directed towards the sun - the largest object in our sky (which would cross over the northern sky of an inverted Earth).

Quote

Lee: And in your scenario these 12/13 kings all use these shafts? 

Yes, probably.  And there were 27 kings (and their queens):

 

And, once upon a time, probably 27 Ka statues for each of them (and their queens):

SC

[Wepwawet]

18 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Which I think is why we find the sign for ‘rising sun’ (akhet) associated with the Sphinx (Horemakhet) facing two opposite directions (at the top section of the Dream Stele). This isn’t, imo, the Sphinx facing sunrise and sunset, as Egyptology would have us believe. It depicts, imo, the Sphinx facing the horizon that is specifically associated with sunrise - on two opposite horizons (east and west) i.e. pre and post inversion.

 

There's some diversion in your reply, Toltecs? no thanks, and wanting me to answer questions, also no thanks.

I would still like to see these texts that say that "Harakhte, he riseth in the west", and an explanation as to why you think Horakhty is the name for the "western sun" when the words "west" and "sun" are not present in the name Horakhty. The reason I posted the image with the name Ra-Horakhty shows he is not the "god of the western sun", but that he is "of" the two horizons, the two strokes under the akhet sign signfy that two horizons are being referenced. There are of course two gods here, Ra, and Horus in his manifestation as Horakhty. But you specifically mention "Harakhte", who is not the same as Ra-Horakhty. The sign for Horakhty is the usual Horus falcon, without sundisc, and the addition of the two strokes, which do not even need to be with the akhet sign as it is, to the Ancient Egyptian reader, obvious which manifestation of Horus is being referenced. Where though is the reference to him being the "god of the western sun" when, as just plain Horakhty, the sun is nowhere in sight, the horizons, while being the places of the sun's rising and setting, are not the sun.

The layout of the "Dream Stela" is not of two sphinxes both facing a rising sun, one in the east and one in the west, they will both be facing east, the layout simply a manifestation of their liking for symetry. But of course it can represent the course of the sun during the day, as the name for the god Ra-Horakhty represents the totality of the sun's daytime journey, with Khepri being the rising sun and Atum as the setting, or dying sun as the EA would see it. The design also, in my own opinion, references either of the two "double lion" gods, Aker and Ruty, both associated with Atum and the two horizons, though if this is so, perhaps more likely to be Aker.

[Scott Creighton]

1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

There's some diversion in your reply, Toltecs? no thanks, and wanting me to answer questions, also no thanks.

SC: Not at all. What I'm seeing is that you're simply not willing to have your Egyptology world turned upside-down.

Quote

Wepawet: I would still like to see these texts that say that "Harakhte, he riseth in the west", and an explanation as to why you think Horakhty is the name for the "western sun" . . .

Here's the full inscription:

“Harakhte, only god, king of the gods; he rises in the west, he sendeth his beauty."

Not precisely what Velikovsky writes but I think the end result is the same: Harakhte (Horus, the god of the rising sun on the Horizon) . . . rises in the west.

Ancient Egypt, David P. Silverman, p.171

Quote

Wepawet:The layout of the "Dream Stela" is not of two sphinxes both facing a rising sun, one in the east and one in the west, they will both be facing east, the layout simply a manifestation of their liking for symetry. But of course it can represent the course of the sun during the day...

Which is just the traditional interpretation which I disagree with. Horus of the Two Horizons is, imo, associated with sunrise on two opposite horizons, not sunrise-sunset. And that's what I think the Dream Stele depicts - it's not simple symmetry.  It's depciting, imo, the two horizons of sunrise (symmetry would be depicting just a single mirrored horizon). Two horizons is two horizons - not a single horizon mirrored.

SC

 

[Hanslune]

3 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

Yes, there’s some low hanging fruit there for the naysayers to quibble with in that list. Which is fair enough. There are certainly some quotes in there that can have another, even more likely, interpretation, and I can see that. But let's consider some of the others:

Any naysayer here care to explain how this might be possible to observe (other than invoking an Earth inversion event, of course)? Shall I take a guess at your response?  "They were all just hallucinating." What if it wasn't hallucination and this really was observed - how do you explain it?

Again, any naysayer care to explain how this might be possible to observe (other than invoking an Earth inversion event, of course)? Shall I take another guess at your response? "They were all just hallucinating."  What if it wasn't hallucination and this really was observed - how do you explain it?

Horakhty – Horus of the two Horizons. Knowing that the ancient Egyptians revered birth/rebirth and abhorred death, it seems odd to me that the term ‘Horus of the two horizons’ would refer to sunrise and sunset. My view is that it references only the sunrise. 

Yes, Horakhty (Horus of the two horizons) as understood by Egyptology, is the god of the rising sun (east) and the god of the setting sun (west).  But reading between the lines here - why is Horakhty “specifically the god of the east and the sunrise”? This implies Horakhty is more or mainly associated with sunrise than he is with the sunset, and that sunset was just some kind of add-on or after-thought.

So why would sunset (the second horizon) have been an ‘add-on’? Well, Egyptology had to somehow explain the “two horizons” reference and, imo, they simply assumed that the second (‘unspecific’) horizon must refer to the sunset because, in their simplistic view of things, what other horizon could it possibly be?

If, however, we invoke an Earth inversion, then there is a second horizon involved – and it’s a second horizon that is entirely associated with the sunrise, though now on the opposite (western) horizon. We are told that Horakhty is specifically the god of sunrise. When the Earth is upright (its present condition) Horakhty is the god of the sunrise on the eastern horizon.  When the Earth becomes inverted, Horakhty then becomes the god of the sunrise but now on the opposite western horizon. ‘Horus of the Two Horizons’ and as Horakhty, “specifically” with ‘sunrise’ on these two horizons. It was never about sunset, imo. But Egyptology, even though it knew Horakhty was mainly associated with the sunrise, had to find a way of explaining the second horizon, and so they assumed, imo, it had to refer to the sunset.  

Which I think is why we find the sign for ‘rising sun’ (akhet) associated with the Sphinx (Horemakhet) facing two opposite directions (at the top section of the Dream Stele). This isn’t, imo, the Sphinx facing sunrise and sunset, as Egyptology would have us believe. It depicts, imo, the Sphinx facing the horizon that is specifically associated with sunrise - on two opposite horizons (east and west) i.e. pre and post inversion.

See above. 

SC

So, let see you still cannot offer any scientific evidence of the earth 'flipping', nor suggest any physical method or process that would allow this to happen, and no evidence that it ever did, other than vague metaphors and religious claims. Its not our fault that you never vetted V's lists, etc.. In your version of the world's realty the earth and moon are flipping up and down multiple times. So, Scott here is an utterly radical idea - why don't you spend a little time on research  - and determine which of the sources you provided as evidence are actually evidence of the earth flipping over? I know what mad thing to suggest.....

[Windowpane]

26 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

SC:

...

Here's the full inscription:

“Harakhte, only god, king of the gods; he rises in the west, he sendeth his beauty."

Not precisely what Velikovsky writes but I think the end result is the same: Harakhte (Horus, the god of the rising sun on the Horizon) . . . rises in the west.

...

Ancient Egypt, David P. Silverman, p.171

 

 

...

There's just one tiny problem ... 

Pyramidion of Amenemhat III

Quote

Along the bottom of the four upper faces, two lines of inscriptions run. The eastern commences with: "Opened is the face of king Amenemhat, he observes the Lord of the Horizon crossing the sky", the northern with: "Higher is the soul (Ba) of king Amenemhat than the height of Orion, and it joins the Duat".

(My italics).

Image of the east face of the pyramidion.

[Scott Creighton]

11 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

...

There's just one tiny problem ... 

Pyramidion of Amenemhat III

(My italics).

Image of the east face of the pyramidion.

Explain the problem to me, specifically with regard to: "Harakhte. . . he rises in the west. . ."

SC

Edited July 29 by Scott Creighton

[Saru]

Thread cleaned

Don't make it personal please folks.

I'd suggest stepping away from the thread and/or using the 'ignore' button if the ideas/views being presented are not to your taste.

[Trelane]

Yeah, don't make it personal.....make it inverted!!!!!!