Sodom and Gomorrah

[The Puzzler]

16 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Since it's a Biblical matter, the thread is definitely related to any discussion on Atlantis. But hardly anyone here would agree with the relationship. But I sense I have a helper in you, as we can work together. Anyone with an open mind is a worker/helper in the pursuit of truth.  “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into His harvest field."

The Jehovahs Witnesses love me when they visit, they know I am a helper. I’m no religion lover, in fact, I’ve always rebelled against it….but I love the Bible, which drives me to the knowledge of it even more. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Piney]

5 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Since it's a Biblical matter, the thread is definitely related to any discussion on Atlantis. But hardly anyone here would agree with the relationship. But I sense I have a helper in you, as we can work together. Anyone with an open mind is a worker/helper in the pursuit of truth.  “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into His harvest field."

Neoplatonism? 

[Abramelin]

What do the words, Sodom and Gomorrah actually mean?

https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Sodom.html

https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Gomorrah.html

Do these translations give us any clue about what really happened?

[The Puzzler]

11 hours ago, Abramelin said:

What do the words, Sodom and Gomorrah actually mean?

https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Sodom.html

https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Gomorrah.html

Do these translations give us any clue about what really happened?

Yes, the towns were full of the sort God didn’t tolerate back then. He punished them for their evil ways.  Like Gods do…

But it’s an interesting thought of their meanings before this….before they became associated with it. I’ll read the links.

 

[The Puzzler]

The name Sodom: Summary

 

Meaning

Flaming, Burnt

Furrows, Wet Fields, Demons, Breasts

Their Assembly

Etymology

From an unused verb סדם (sadam), to burn.

From the verb שדד (sadad), to harrow or plough a field, or the verb שדד (shadad), to act violently.

From (1) the verb סדד (sadad), to join or יסד (yasad), to assemble, and (2) the pronoun ־מ (-m), their.

Related names

• Via שדד (sadad😞 Ammishaddai, Chaldeans, Chesed, Shaddai, Shedeur, Siddim, Zurishaddai

• Via סדד (sadad😞 Besodeiah, Sodi

—————————

The name Gomorrah: Summary

 

Meaning

Tyrannical Dealings, Throes

People Of Fear, People Who Shoot Arrows

Etymology

From the verb עמר ('amar), to grip of bind.

From (1) the noun עם ('am), people or kinsman, and (2) the verb ירה (yarah), to be a lot of a little.

Related names

• Via עמר ('amar😞 Amram, Omri

• Via עם ('am😞 Adullam, Amalek, Amalekite, Amam, Amasa, Ammi, Ammiel, Ammihud, Ammihur, Amminadab, Ammishaddai, Ammizabad, Ammon, Aniam, Balaam, Ben-ammi, Bileam, Chephar-ammoni, Eliam, Ibleam, Immanuel, Ithream, Jashobeam, Jekameam, Jeroboam, Jokdeam, Jokmeam, Jokneam, Jorkeam, Lo-ammi, Rehoboam, Ummah

• Via ירה (yarah😞 Ashtoreth, Jeremoth, Jeriah, Jeriel, Jerimoth, Jeruel, Jerusalem, Jorah, Jorai, Moreh, Moriah, Tiria, Torah, Yiron

 

 

[The Puzzler]

Gomorrah translation reminding me of LOTR…Moria being the home of a lot of little (dwarves) kin. Tolkien would have known this, playing names with meanings.
 

 Interesting. They both are. Thanks.

Often connected to the PHaethon myth event too.

Edited October 16, 2023 by The Puzzler

[+Pettytalk]

17 hours ago, Piney said:

Neoplatonism? 

Old School Platonism.....Nietzsche: Christianity is Platonism for the Masses.

[+Pettytalk]

22 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

The Jehovahs Witnesses love me when they visit, they know I am a helper. I’m no religion lover, in fact, I’ve always rebelled against it….but I love the Bible, which drives me to the knowledge of it even more. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpwXEdYM10c

 

[+Pettytalk]

5 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Yes, the towns were full of the sort God didn’t tolerate back then. He punished them for their evil ways.  Like Gods do…

But it’s an interesting thought of their meanings before this….before they became associated with it. I’ll read the links.

 

Think further on... what happened to those deemed worth saving from the entire population; Lot, his wife, and their two daughters? The wife was disobedient, and looked back to become a pillar of salt. Lot and his daughters ended up with performing double incest.  

[The Puzzler]

2 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Think further on... what happened to those deemed worth saving from the entire population; Lot, his wife, and their two daughters? The wife was disobedient, and looked back to become a pillar of salt. Lot and his daughters ended up with performing double incest.  

The whole story of Lot is so deep. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot_(biblical_person)

Sometimes words fail me on where to even start, so I babble some basic post. 
 

I note Josephus mentions only lightening. What happened to those deemed worth saving?…They saved the line of Gods chosen ones, the line of Abraham, at the time, before Isaac. Even if his family were disobedient, Lot himself was worthy. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

8 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Gomorrah translation reminding me of LOTR…

Gomorrah always makes me think of a venereal disease.

[The Puzzler]

The presence of the Lord…
And Abraham got up early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD. And he looked out toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the Plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the land went up as the smoke of a furnace.

I don’t think that 13 years of research on a site that is being excavated, should be discounted so easy, like oh he’s a scam man….an air burst meteor seems quite likely.

“New research finds that a powerful airburst from a meteor colliding with the atmosphere may have wiped out a Bronze Age civilization along the north side of the Dead Sea some 3,700 years ago.  While the findings come from the excavation of the Tall el-Hammam archaeological site in Jordan, many believe that the same place was once known as Sodom.

 

“Yes, as in Sodom and Gomorrah from the Bible, Torah and Quran - the cities of sin supposedly destroyed with brimstone and fire sent from God.

Archaeologist Phillip J. Silvia of Trinity Southwest University in Albuquerque has been working with a team that has been excavating the site for over 13 years and presented their report at the annual meeting of the American Schools of Oriental Research last month.

Samples from the site show that an extremely hot, explosive event leveled an area of almost 200 square miles including the Middle Ghor - a circular plain to the north of the Dead Sea.

"...not only wiping out 100 percent of the Middle Bronze Age cities and towns, but also stripping agricultural soils from once-fertile fields," reads the abstract from the conference “

 

[The Puzzler]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:15 AM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Apparently, researchers believe that the cities could be located in a fertile plain North of the Dead Sea, but their location has never been proven. Docy, the link below has a great deal of information on the subject I sincerely hope this helps.

Hope you're doing ok and well!!!!

 Biblical Archaeology Society: Where Is Sodom? - Biblical Archaeology Society                                    

Seems cut and dried. But there was another link in your link against the idea of Tall el-Hammam being Sodom.…even it seems likely to me, it would certainly be located somewhere near it.

Biblical dates…like, they can be tricky…the time of Abraham….I don’t think dating by Biblical or mythology should be taken too literally, in general.

The geography I’m not too familiar with but will read more on it.

The proposal that Tall el-Hammam is Sodom fails on at least two counts, and these are helpfully summarized by two experts in their respective subjects.

Geography Fail: Bill Schlegel, professor in Israel for 25 years and author of the Satellite Bible Atlas, explains why the biblical text does not fit the geography of Tall el-Hammam.

Chronology Fail: Eugene Merrill, Distinguished Professor of Old Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary and author of Kingdom of Priests: A History of Old Testament Israel, shows in a recent Artifax article that for Tall el-Hammam to be Sodom one must deny all of the biblical datesbefore the time of the judges.

———————

Time frame….Middle Bronze Age …….

Seeking to answer the question “Where is Sodom?” and using the Biblical geography of Genesis 13 as a guide, Collins decided to excavate Tall el-Hammam, an extensive and heavily fortified site located in modern Jordan at the eastern edge of the kikkar. First inhabited during the Chalcolithic period (4600–3600 B.C.E.), the site attained its maximum size during the Middle Bronze Age (c. 2000–1600 B.C.E.) and became one of the largest cities in Canaan. But unlike other Canaanite cities that continued to flourish in the Late Bronze Age (1550-1200 B.C.E.), Tall el-Hammam was destroyed by fire at the end of the Middle Bronze Age and remained uninhabited for centuries.

Edited October 16, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Collins however has investigated the geography quite deep imo. He says…

”Geographically, the Bible is remarkably accurate. The sheer richness of the geographical and topographical information contained within Biblical stories—including those of Sodom and Gomorrah—demonstrates that the writers themselves knew firsthand the physical stage upon which their characters, real or imagined, lived and moved. The literary landscape—the Biblical landscape—consisted of the cities, districts, mountains, rivers, lakes, gorges, cliffs and caves with which the writers had an intimate relationship. When it came to geography, their mind’s eye was a literal recollection of what they’d seen with their physical eyes. That is, even if the story is not historical, the geographical setting is very likely to be accurate.

And the Bible gives us some remarkable indications of the location of Sodom.

According to Genesis, Abram (later Abraham) placed his tent at “Bethel, to the place between Bethel and Ai where his tent had been earlier” (Genesis 13:3). His brother’s son Lot was with him, and when they quarreled, Lot moved. Here is how the Bible describes where Lot went:

Lot looked up and saw that the whole plain (kikkar) of the Jordan was well watered, like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt, toward Zoar. This was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. So Lot chose for himself the whole plain (kikkar) of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company. Abram lived in Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain (ha-kikkar) and pitched his tents near Sodom (Genesis 13:10–12).

Thus we are given a description of the site before its destruction. And what it was called was the “kikkar of the Jordan” or simply “the kikkar,” suggesting a well-known geographical area in the same way that the area of southern Israel is referred to as the Negev.

The place from which Lot set out is clear: between Bethel and Ai. Bethel is located, according to most scholars, at or near Beitin, about 12 miles north of Jerusalem. The location of Ai, the second city mentioned in the Biblical passage, is disputed, but both candidates are in the same area, not far from Beitin.^a Travel east, cross the Jordan River and see if there is a well-watered area—like Egypt or the Garden of Eden, according to the Bible—and see if we can find the kikkar of the Jordan.”

 

[The Puzzler]

“

But before we do, let’s look more closely at the Hebrew word kikkar. What is the kikkar (or ha-kikkar) of the Jordan? Almost all English Bible translations (including the Tanakh of the New Jewish Publication Society Translation, the New Revised Standard Version and the New International Version, the last of which I use in this article) translate it “plain.” Literally, however, kikkar means round or oval-shaped.¹ In Hebrew it is also used to refer to a circular, flat piece of bread. At other times it is used to refer to a talent, a flat, circular weight of metal.²In more than 50 instances in the Hebrew Bible, kikkar refers to bread or to a talent, both disk-shaped. But these meanings never use the definite Hebrew article ha (or “the”), as in ha-kikkar.³

In 11 of the 13 instances in which kikkar is used as a geographical term (the possible exceptions being Nehemiah 3:22, 12:28), it refers to a disk-shaped plain in the southern Jordan Valley. Of these 13 instances, four refer to kikkar ha-yarden (“Disk of the Jordan”), while the remaining nine use ha-kikkar (“the Disk”), suggesting a well-known geographical construct. Both of these terms, kikkar ha-yarden (“Disk of the Jordan”) and ha-kikkar (“the Disk”), appear in the quotation above from Genesis 13, referring to Sodom, where Lot settled.

As it happens, there is a disk-shaped alluvial plain just north of the Dead Sea across from, and east of, Bethel and Ai.” etc etc

https://library.biblicalarchaeology.org/article/where-is-sodom/

[Grim Reaper 6]

7 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Seems cut and dried. But there was another link in your link against the idea of Tall el-Hammam being Sodom.…even it seems likely to me, it would certainly be located somewhere near it.

Biblical dates…like, they can be tricky…the time of Abraham….I don’t think dating by Biblical or mythology should be taken too literally, in general.

The geography I’m not too familiar with but will read more on it.

The proposal that Tall el-Hammam is Sodom fails on at least two counts, and these are helpfully summarized by two experts in their respective subjects.

Geography Fail: Bill Schlegel, professor in Israel for 25 years and author of the Satellite Bible Atlas, explains why the biblical text does not fit the geography of Tall el-Hammam.

Chronology Fail: Eugene Merrill, Distinguished Professor of Old Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary and author of Kingdom of Priests: A History of Old Testament Israel, shows in a recent Artifax article that for Tall el-Hammam to be Sodom one must deny all of the biblical datesbefore the time of the judges.

———————

Time frame….Middle Bronze Age …….

Seeking to answer the question “Where is Sodom?” and using the Biblical geography of Genesis 13 as a guide, Collins decided to excavate Tall el-Hammam, an extensive and heavily fortified site located in modern Jordan at the eastern edge of the kikkar. First inhabited during the Chalcolithic period (4600–3600 B.C.E.), the site attained its maximum size during the Middle Bronze Age (c. 2000–1600 B.C.E.) and became one of the largest cities in Canaan. But unlike other Canaanite cities that continued to flourish in the Late Bronze Age (1550-1200 B.C.E.), Tall el-Hammam was destroyed by fire at the end of the Middle Bronze Age and remained uninhabited for centuries.

Thanks for the additional information, I learned something today. I appreciate you taking the time to educate me further on this subject!

[Kenemet]

On 10/15/2023 at 1:19 PM, Abramelin said:

What do the words, Sodom and Gomorrah actually mean?

https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Sodom.html

https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Gomorrah.html

Do these translations give us any clue about what really happened?

I have some doubts about those etymologies.

sodom | Etymology, origin and meaning of sodom by etymonline

gomorrah | Search Online Etymology Dictionary (etymonline.com)

(this is not to say that it's a hill I will die on; if there's better information or more confirmation I am willing to change my mind.  But the sources you offer seem to give some contradictory meanings that I can't quite resolve.)

[Kenemet]

9 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Seems cut and dried. But there was another link in your link against the idea of Tall el-Hammam being Sodom.…even it seems likely to me, it would certainly be located somewhere near it.

Biblical dates…like, they can be tricky…the time of Abraham….I don’t think dating by Biblical or mythology should be taken too literally, in general.

The geography I’m not too familiar with but will read more on it.

The proposal that Tall el-Hammam is Sodom fails on at least two counts, and these are helpfully summarized by two experts in their respective subjects.

Geography Fail: Bill Schlegel, professor in Israel for 25 years and author of the Satellite Bible Atlas, explains why the biblical text does not fit the geography of Tall el-Hammam.

Chronology Fail: Eugene Merrill, Distinguished Professor of Old Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary and author of Kingdom of Priests: A History of Old Testament Israel, shows in a recent Artifax article that for Tall el-Hammam to be Sodom one must deny all of the biblical datesbefore the time of the judges.

———————

Time frame….Middle Bronze Age …….

Seeking to answer the question “Where is Sodom?” and using the Biblical geography of Genesis 13 as a guide, Collins decided to excavate Tall el-Hammam, an extensive and heavily fortified site located in modern Jordan at the eastern edge of the kikkar. First inhabited during the Chalcolithic period (4600–3600 B.C.E.), the site attained its maximum size during the Middle Bronze Age (c. 2000–1600 B.C.E.) and became one of the largest cities in Canaan. But unlike other Canaanite cities that continued to flourish in the Late Bronze Age (1550-1200 B.C.E.), Tall el-Hammam was destroyed by fire at the end of the Middle Bronze Age and remained uninhabited for centuries.

Rather famously, that claim has been debunked - and the name isn't a match. Tell el-Hammam - Wikipedia

[Abramelin]

8 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I have some doubts about those etymologies.

sodom | Etymology, origin and meaning of sodom by etymonline

gomorrah | Search Online Etymology Dictionary (etymonline.com)

(this is not to say that it's a hill I will die on; if there's better information or more confirmation I am willing to change my mind.  But the sources you offer seem to give some contradictory meanings that I can't quite resolve.)

Your source for the etymology of the name 'Sodom' only gives an interpretation based on Sodom's 'wickedness', not a real etymology. It's like saying that New York means 'many high buildings'.

And that's why I posted those other links.

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Your source for the etymology of the name 'Sodom' only gives an interpretation based on Sodom's 'wickedness', not a real etymology. It's like saying that New York means 'many high buildings'.

And that's why I posted those other links.

I have to agree and I pointed this out….we know the word from post-Biblical interpretations but the original names back to Hebrew were quite different. Burnt….ploughed….kin……none of that is relative to the later etymologies of the place names. 
Ploughed into ruts, a place of the plot, agricultural area…which when lightening or meteors hit the Earth they can often plough a ditch…so the terminology of “burnt” even though it might appear as an after event name, could co-inside with farming itself….I wouldn’t be surprised if a big lightening strike or meteor plough into the Earth created some form of growth originally, from the ground….and mankind continued to plough the ground to create the same outcome…many myths contain this theme…even Greece…Hephaestus and Athena…Hephaestus is fire or myth has him being thrown down by Hera so he could even represent firey objects from the sky also. The son produced by this union is Erichthonius, born from the Earth, a grain type God.

The links you provided were good. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

10 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Rather famously, that claim has been debunked - and the name isn't a match. Tell el-Hammam - Wikipedia

It does raise eyebrows but surely some of the evidence is real.

[+Pettytalk]

27 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Hephaestus and Athena…Hephaestus is fire or myth has him being thrown down by Hera so he could even represent firey objects from the sky also. The son produced by this union is Erichthonius, born from the Earth, a grain type God.

One must keep a keen eye on possible similarities of ancient myths from various cultures, as useful clues may be had as to the possibility that some reality may surface.

It's interesting that the mythical Erichthonius is also being brought in on this discussion a Biblical event said to have destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cause having been supernatural (angels and God = divine intervention), as punishment for ungodly people. 

It goes without saying, as all well informed individuals on Atlantis would know, the mythical half-serpent Erichthonius was also one of the kings of Athens, and more to the point, in the Critias dialogue, he was said to have been one of the combatants in the Athens - Atlantis war. The point is that the theme is the destruction of mankind, same as in the preamble of the Timaeus dialogue leading to the story of Atlantis, where a continent-sized "island" will be destroyed by Zeus, the god of gods, because Atlantis eventually would became a greedy "evil" empire.

The following is from an internet source.

Erichthonius' story is an intriguing blend of divine intervention, human curiosity, and the development of ancient Athens. His connection to Athena, the city's patron goddess, and his role in its early history make him an essential figure in Greek mythology. Erichthonius' tale continues to captivate those interested in the rich tapestry of myths and legends that have shaped our understanding of the ancient world.

Erichthonius, a fascinating figure in Greek mythology, was a serpent-formed child born from the union of Hephaestus, the god of fire and metalworking, and the earth. According to legend, Hephaestus attempted to force himself upon Athena, the goddess of wisdom, but she managed to evade him. In the process, Hephaestus' seed fell on the earth, and Erichthonius was born.

Upon Erichthonius' birth, Athena took him under her protection, placing the serpent-child in a sacred basket and entrusting him to the three daughters of Cecrops: Aglaurus, Herse, and Pandrosus. She instructed them not to open the basket until she returned. However, curiosity overcame Aglaurus and Herse, who disobeyed Athena's command and peeked inside the basket. Upon seeing the serpent-formed child, they were driven mad and ultimately leaped from the Acropolis, meeting their tragic end."

Despite his unusual origins and serpent form, Erichthonius went on to become a respected king of Athens. He was known for his wisdom, innovation, and contribution to the city's development. Among his many accomplishments, Erichthonius introduced the use of silver coins and the four-horse chariot, known as the quadriga, to Athenian society.

 

[The Puzzler]

23 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

One must keep a keen eye on possible similarities of ancient myths from various cultures, as useful clues may be had as to the possibility that some reality may surface.

It's interesting that the mythical Erichthonius is also being brought in on this discussion a Biblical event said to have destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cause having been supernatural (angels and God = divine intervention), as punishment for ungodly people. 

It goes without saying, as all well informed individuals on Atlantis would know, the mythical half-serpent Erichthonius was also one of the kings of Athens, and more to the point, in the Critias dialogue, he was said to have been one of the combatants in the Athens - Atlantis war. The point is that the theme is the destruction of mankind, same as in the preamble of the Timaeus dialogue leading to the story of Atlantis, where a continent-sized "island" will be destroyed by Zeus, the god of gods, because Atlantis eventually would became a greedy "evil" empire.

The following is from an internet source.

Erichthonius' story is an intriguing blend of divine intervention, human curiosity, and the development of ancient Athens. His connection to Athena, the city's patron goddess, and his role in its early history make him an essential figure in Greek mythology. Erichthonius' tale continues to captivate those interested in the rich tapestry of myths and legends that have shaped our understanding of the ancient world.

Erichthonius, a fascinating figure in Greek mythology, was a serpent-formed child born from the union of Hephaestus, the god of fire and metalworking, and the earth. According to legend, Hephaestus attempted to force himself upon Athena, the goddess of wisdom, but she managed to evade him. In the process, Hephaestus' seed fell on the earth, and Erichthonius was born.

Upon Erichthonius' birth, Athena took him under her protection, placing the serpent-child in a sacred basket and entrusting him to the three daughters of Cecrops: Aglaurus, Herse, and Pandrosus. She instructed them not to open the basket until she returned. However, curiosity overcame Aglaurus and Herse, who disobeyed Athena's command and peeked inside the basket. Upon seeing the serpent-formed child, they were driven mad and ultimately leaped from the Acropolis, meeting their tragic end."

Despite his unusual origins and serpent form, Erichthonius went on to become a respected king of Athens. He was known for his wisdom, innovation, and contribution to the city's development. Among his many accomplishments, Erichthonius introduced the use of silver coins and the four-horse chariot, known as the quadriga, to Athenian society.

 

Yes…

Your mention of Erichthonius as mentioned in Atlantis war is something I fall back on a lot. 
In this case, a grain God was born from a fire falling from the sky…maybe it was lightening, maybe something else.

Indigenous people of Australia are known for burning the bush…creating regeneration.

The union of Hephaestus and Athena is mentioned as the link between Saites and Athenians as well.

Edited October 17, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

However Wiki doesn’t say what Abe’s links said…

”The etymology of the names Sodom and Gomorrah is uncertain, and scholars disagree about them.^[5] They are known in Hebrew as סְדֹם (Səḏōm) and עֲמֹרָה ('Ămōrā). In the Septuagint, these became Σόδομα (Sódoma) and Γόμορρᾰ (Gómorrha); the Hebrew ghayn was absorbed by ayin sometime after the Septuagint was transcribed.^[6] According to Burton MacDonald, the Hebrew term for Gomorrah was based on the Semitic root ʿ-m-r, which means "be deep", "copious (water)".”

It does give us this little gem though…..

”The narrative of their destruction may have a relation to the remains of third-millennium BC Bronze Age cities in the region, and subsequent Late Bronze Age collapse.”

But docy is asking where the sites might be…..so we could look at these in more detail if not going for the Tall el-Hammam site.

”

Possible sites[edit]

Archibald Sayce translated an Akkadian poem describing cities that were destroyed in a rain of fire and written from the view of a person who escaped the destruction; unfortunately, the names of the cities are not given in the work.^[51] Sayce later mentions that the story more closely resembles the doom of Sennacherib's host.^[52]

The ancient Greek historiographer Strabo states that locals living near Moasada (as opposed to Masada) say that "there were once thirteen inhabited cities in that region of which Sodom was the metropolis".^[53] Strabo identifies a limestone and salt hill at the southwestern tip of the Dead Sea, and Kharbet Usdum (Hebrew: הר סדום, Har Sedomor Arabic: جبل السدوم, Jabal(u) 'ssudūm) ruins nearby as the site of biblical Sodom.^[54]

The Jewish historian Josephus identifies the Dead Sea in geographic proximity to the ancient biblical city of Sodom. He refers to the lake by its Greek name, Asphaltites.^[55]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah

[+Pettytalk]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

Yes…

Your mention of Erichthonius as mentioned in Atlantis war is something I fall back on a lot. 
In this case, a grain God was born from a fire falling from the sky…maybe it was lightening, maybe something else.

Indigenous people of Australia are known for burning the bush…creating regeneration.

The union of Hephaestus and Athena is mentioned as the link between Saites and Athenians as well.

I'm not wanting to digress from the topic of this thread by using the Atlantis story, but there really is an apparent Biblical connection, coincidently.

He replied:-In the Egyptian Delta, at the head of which the river Nile divides, there is a certain district which is called the district of Sais, and the great city of the district is also called Sais, and is the city from which King Amasis came. The citizens have a deity for their foundress; she is called in the Egyptian tongue Neith, and is asserted by them to be the same whom the Hellenes call Athene; they are great lovers of the Athenians, and say that they are in some way related to them. To this city came Solon....

There is a very specific motive as to why Plato used the theme of the "same deity." And the selection of the Egyptian Delta location is the key. Now, to be clear, my ideas are just speculation, and were spurred on by coincidences. Therefore, even on the basis of coincidences, it's imperative to keep in perspective the ideal city-state which Socrates built in words, in the Republic dialogue, and which, as staged by Plato, "by some strange coincidence," impeccably, resembled the prehistoric Athens who fought Atlantis, as the priests revealed to Solon. Now, if you are following my drift, the ideal city-state pattern is said to be up there, in heaven, and this pattern has existed in eternity. Intertwined in the foundation of story of Atlantis are gods, and divine interventions.

Before Plato, apart from Herodotus and his Histories, there seems to be no other sources for making the association of Athena to Neith, and vice versa.

 

Why the Egyptian Delta? And where is the Biblical connection?

Edited October 17, 2023 by Pettytalk