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Update on big void in the Great Pyramid


Wistman

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This imaging by way of contrasted areas of attenuation differences is exactly how radiography works.  I'd be interested to know the composition of the emulsion they use for the film.  I didn't have time to listen to the whole thing, but it sounds fascinating.

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Watched this, and am more convinced now that this is not a "relieving chamber" for the Grand Gallery, but storage chambers.

Houdin is interesting, as always, but despite his observations about the Grand Gallery, I don't see a system for raising blocks, at least for the main construction of the pyramid. Why a system that goes to the center, more or less, of the pyramid, and at just one level. If this void is also sloped then he may be correct, but he did originally suggest, before the discovery of this void, that there could be hidden storage chambers heading out horizontally from the King's Chamber, and I'll still go with that. They just need to pull out that block by the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber and the questions may be answered.

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For those who wish to see more details on Houdin's theory, here's the link to Houdin's 2022 (updated 2023) paper to which Ancient Architects refers in the video:

https://www.academia.edu/98453619/The_BIG_VOID_En_Updated_on_03_12_2023_

 ...a bit of a dense read

 

Edited by Wistman
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  • 8 months later...

For what its worth, I thought I'd post my 2 cents on the void.  I suspect its a secondary redundant reliving chamber of chevrons.   The most influential aspect of the GP that leads me to think that, is specifically the Chevron system down at the entrance.  Many have wondered why there is such a massive protective structure over a passage that has the least amount of pyramid weight bearing down on it, and with good reason.  But that good reason has only to do with static weight loads.   I suspect we have to consider dynamic loads from falling rocks. 

The pyramid is made of extremely hard, but functionally brittle material, and its been assembled with a considerable focus on high quality tight seam joinery.   What you get with that, is an excellent substrate to transfer and transmit force vectors deep through the rock.   Its easy to model the force vectors of static load, but dynamic load of falling rock is another story.  If while building the pyramid, a rock should break free and fall, its impact points would appear like lightning shooting through the pyramid, and with tight seam work, that force vector could travel far enough to compromise any unsupported span, because without a tight fitting rock underneath it, it has nowhere to transfer that force.  And if that were to happen, and any span were to be compromised, it would be an impossibly costly complete strip mining all around that compromised span to replace it.  So, because that repair is impossible, I expect its very responsible and practical for engineers to design the system to have preventative precautionary chevron systems over any span of unsupported rock to redirect those potential dynamic forces away from the vulnerable spans. 

Therefore, to me it makes sense, that the small void over the entrance is just a precautionary force redirection system, and not a mystical passage for Khufu's soul to make a sandwhich on his way to Orion.  And the same goes for the larger void above the GG.   Its not sexy, and it kills the idea that the void might contain Khufu's gold, which drains the Antiquities department motivation to drill a hole and send up an inflatable zeppelin drone camera, which they could do tomorrow if they wanted to.  But my money is on that purpose, which eventually we'll find out about on a PPV stream that will cost everyone potentially an amount of money that might equate to Khufu's gold anyways. 

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1 hour ago, Open Mind OG said:

Therefore, to me it makes sense, that the small void over the entrance is just a precautionary force redirection system, and not a mystical passage for Khufu's soul to make a sandwhich on his way to Orion.  And the same goes for the larger void above the GG.   Its not sexy, and it kills the idea that the void might contain Khufu's gold, which drains the Antiquities department motivation to drill a hole and send up an inflatable zeppelin drone camera, which they could do tomorrow if they wanted to.  But my money is on that purpose, which eventually we'll find out about on a PPV stream that will cost everyone potentially an amount of money that might equate to Khufu's gold anyways. 

I'd agree with that. An empty void. If slanted, stepped load deflection chevrons or possibly horizontal. I prefer stepped slanted. It'd take four hours to bore a hole and get a scope in there.

Anyway time will tell and It might be a long time. It's in Egypt:)

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18 hours ago, Open Mind OG said:

Therefore, to me it makes sense, that the small void over the entrance is just a precautionary force redirection system, and not a mystical passage for Khufu's soul to make a sandwhich on his way to Orion.

Do you think that any part of the internal structure of the Great Pyramid has a religious function, or combines both structural and religious functions.

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4 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Do you think that any part of the internal structure of the Great Pyramid has a religious function, or combines both structural and religious functions.

I guess I need to say, having looked at the GP for some time, I've had to conclude that there is just too much missing to have a confidence that we'll ever really figure it out.  If it had a function, then we'd need to have completely reinvented those idea's and only then will we be able to fill in the blanks.  But then I say that, while knowing that there are some who believe we already know what it is, and lets say I'm not as confident.  So while I suspect historically, we've been chasing red herrings surrounding the tomb and religious functionality, I can't say with total confidence that the full degree of those statements is incorrect.   Hows that non answer for you, lol. 

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6 hours ago, Open Mind OG said:

If it had a function

By that are you questioning if G1 had a function, as it seems so.

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6 hours ago, Open Mind OG said:

I guess I need to say, having looked at the GP for some time, I've had to conclude that there is just too much missing to have a confidence that we'll ever really figure it out.  If it had a function, then we'd need to have completely reinvented those idea's and only then will we be able to fill in the blanks.  But then I say that, while knowing that there are some who believe we already know what it is, and lets say I'm not as confident.  So while I suspect historically, we've been chasing red herrings surrounding the tomb and religious functionality, I can't say with total confidence that the full degree of those statements is incorrect.   Hows that non answer for you, lol. 

The problem is that you’re viewing it in isolation. It’s not an isolated structure.

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7 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

By that are you questioning if G1 had a function, as it seems so.

no.  I'm trying to be careful with my words.  I have a high percentage of confidence it had a function, but I don't want to be dogmatic about that idea and not sound open to new ideas. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Open Mind OG said:

I have a high percentage of confidence it had a function

In normal language then you have at least some inkling that it had no function. That being the case, for if it were not you would reply as probably 99% of people would and state it was a tomb, given the context of the setting of G1, a necropolis with other pyramids, and the context of the Ancient Egyptian civilization who built the necropolis and it's tombs, what leads you to have doubt that it ever had a function.

I'll reiterate what @Antigonos said and suggest that you seem to be viewing the Great Pyramid in isolation from it's context, and, I would suggest, also from the Ancient Egyptians as I sense an aversion to connect them to G1. Connected to that, I also detect, by your rather gnomic replies, an aversion to discussing the religion of the Ancient Egyptian builders, the why the pyramids were built, the most important discussion, in my opinion, on pyramids and coming before the how they were built. The monuments of the Ancient Egyptians are informed by their religious beliefs, not the other way around. Discussion of the monuments must address the why as well as the how, otherwise an erroneous view will be formed.

Edited by Wepwawet
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Discussion of the monuments must address the why as well as the how, otherwise an erroneous view will be formed.

your wording was tricky for me.   But I get the general idea that you're a proponent of the tomb idea?   How do you rationalize the lack of adornment inside?    For me, its not the main reason for my doubts, but it did act like one of the last nails in the coffin, so to speak.

Edited by Open Mind OG
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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Open Mind OG said:

your wording was tricky for me.   But I get the general idea that you're a proponent of the tomb idea?   How do you rationalize the lack of adornment inside?    For me, its not the main reason for my doubts, but it did act like one of the last nails in the coffin, so to speak.

Why would the burial chamber of a 4th Dynasty tomb need any decoration or inscriptions?. Do any of the preceeding pyramids have decorated burial chambers? Are you taking the burial chamber of Unas's pyramid as a benchmark by which to decide what does or does not constitute a tomb for what came before?

Edit: To be clear, this is the burial chamber of a king, and not to be confused with the decorated tomb chapels of a mastaba.

Edited by Wepwawet
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19 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Why would the burial chamber of a 4th Dynasty tomb need any decoration or inscriptions?

I don't know.  It gets muddy.   All I know is there is some very intentional complex work on display in G1 and other pyramids, and the very thorough archeological and Egyptological work of establishing the available tools of dynastic Egypt tells me there's a break in knowledge somewhere along the way.  And if I make that assumption about a 'break', then it follows that a later people will 'fill in the blanks' of what they can't understand, if knowledge was lost, with esoteric mystical idea's that can't be scientifically substantiated, which is the value of those idea's because they require faith to follow.   I try to remain open.  I can't be confident where or when that break occurred exactly, and what structure came before or after that 'break', but that's what generally looks like happened in Egypt to me. 

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13 minutes ago, Open Mind OG said:

I don't know.  It gets muddy.

Yes, clearly. Why then did you even bring up this old debunked topic about lack of decoration in a king's burial chamber before the end of the 5th Dynasty being any form of "proof" that if a burial chamber is not decorated, then it cannot be a tomb.

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1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

"proof"

na.  just 'influence'

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Open Mind OG said:

your wording was tricky for me.   But I get the general idea that you're a proponent of the tomb idea?   How do you rationalize the lack of adornment inside?    For me, its not the main reason for my doubts, but it did act like one of the last nails in the coffin, so to speak.

The readers will note you did not say "burial chamber",  which is not the argument, but rather "lack of adornment inside" as its not just the burial chamber but rather the fact these pyramids are completely devoid of any funerary inscription or decoration [except G3]. True, burial chambers for non pharaoh's as a rule were often bare, but the rest of their interiors of their tombs were replete with as much "flair" as could be afforded. It is unreasonable if the pyramids were made as tombs to actually inter a body they would be completely devoid of such for not only no apparent reason but abhorrent to DE culture and funerary practices. No its not "proof", not sure who was saying this, but it is certainly part of the body of the greater body of evidence in support of the idea pyramids were not built as tombs.   

If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?

Edited by Thanos5150
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This thread is about the Great Pyramid, the fringe involvement in this thread is about the Great Pyramid. The burial chamber of the Great Pyramid contains no decoration whatsoever, and this fact has been used, and it is implicit in the post by "Open Mind", to say that the Great Pyramid is not a tomb. No burial chamber of a king has any decoration until the end of the 5th Dynasty, very few tombs of commoners have a decorated burial chamber until the end of the 5th Dynasty, the decoration being confined to the chapel. Why the PT only appear inside a king's burial chamber with Unas is unknown, but that they do not appear before then is very flimsy evidence to say that lack of texts or other decoration in a king's burial chamber means it is not a tomb. That there are anomalies with some pyramids, most notably with Sneferu having three, is not in doubt, but a blanket statement that "pyramids are not tombs" cannot be sustained. A more honest statement would be asking why a few kings had more than one pyramid, and why one "sarcophagus" was found sealed but empty. I say "sarcophagus" because while it is a stone box, that it has a sliding door at one end makes it unique, and unique things are not good to use as evidence on a wider scale. How many pyramids are there that can be associated with a king, how many of this number are anomalous, the majority, or at least a sizeable minority to justify stating that pyramids are not tombs, or is it just a small minority.

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On 5/9/2024 at 10:00 PM, Open Mind OG said:

I guess I need to say, having looked at the GP for some time, I've had to conclude that there is just too much missing to have a confidence that we'll ever really figure it out.  If it had a function, then we'd need to have completely reinvented those idea's and only then will we be able to fill in the blanks.  But then I say that, while knowing that there are some who believe we already know what it is, and let’s say I'm not as confident.  So while I suspect historically, we've been chasing red herrings surrounding the tomb and religious functionality, I can't say with total confidence that the full degree of those statements is incorrect.   Hows that non answer for you, lol. 

…for me, i think the stone sarcophagus (box) inside the great pyramid asks a lot of questions. The dimensions are too small to fit a human coffin befitting a ruler that could build such a monument. 
 

besides, didn’t Herodotus write Cheops was not buried in the pyramid but in a secret unknown place? So this argument isn’t new and to me it’s a 50/50 bet

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

…for me, i think the stone sarcophagus (box) inside the great pyramid asks a lot of questions.

It does.  Its actually surprising how close it is, just under actually by an inch or two in both dimensions, to the Antechamber passage under the portcullis.   Its popular to say that it can't fit, but it does very well and could slide all the way through to the GG, and the opening is a nice fit under the opening of the portcullis.   These close fits tend to suggest non coincidence.    I refer to the M&R dimensions for confirmation.   Prepare your tinfoil hat for this one...

Edited by Open Mind OG
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

The dimensions are too small to fit a human coffin befitting a ruler that could build such a monument.

No tinfoil hats required for this. A sarcophagus is a coffin. We in modern times differentiate between a wooden coffin and a stone coffin, which we, not the AE, use the Greek word for, sarcophagus. Wooden coffins did exist in the OK of course, and the remains of one from the time of Khufu belonging to a noble have recently been found at Giza. Nested coffins, as far as I am aware, were not a feature in the OK, so the king, or anybody who had a stone coffin, would be placed directly into their single coffin. If you may be thinking surely the deceased would be transported to their tomb in a wooden coffin, this was not the case as the deceased was transported as a wrapped mummy, as can be seen in tomb decorations which show a funeral procession.

I know it's easy to look at the burial of Tutankhamun, even if a burial reduced from what was normal at that time, and think that this type of lavish burial had been the same for kings in preceding dynasties. The reality is that the New KIngdom kings' burials were at the highest point in the evolution of the royal burial, they became much reduced after the New Kingdom as the Tanis burials show. That the Great Pyramid is so overwhelming in it's size and complexity as a tomb should not distract from the fact that the AE had not yet reached the level of complexity, very elaborate nested coffins within a stone sarcophagus, and multiple shrines with religious texts, that they achieved later. I'm sure the amount of grave goods was vast, at least as much as for an NK king, if not greater, vide Djoser, but the core burial would have been "poorer".

Edited by Wepwawet
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1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

That the Great Pyramid is so overwhelming in it's size and complexity as a tomb should not distract from the fact that the AE had not yet reached the level of complexity,

I am distracted by this.   I wish I had the confidence in knowing that stone boxes were the intentional creation of the dynastic Egyptians for funerary purposes, but I am distracted by countless items that point to a completely other purpose.    I also wish it was more convincing that we know certain kings made some of those boxes, instead of simply discovering those amazing works of stone and claiming them for their purposes, but since we can't date stone, we have to rely on circumstantial evidence, and I have suspicions based on a great many of those.   The only thing I have a confidence about, is the distinction of stone box work that appears refined, precise, and purpose built, vs the more organic rudimentary, which was  obviously hand made to the best ability of the stone mason of that time.

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1 hour ago, Open Mind OG said:

I wish I had the confidence in knowing that stone boxes were the intentional creation of the dynastic Egyptians for funerary purposes

Perhaps you should read some books on this subject by experts, it might grow your confidence if you knew at least the basic facts.

 

1 hour ago, Open Mind OG said:

I am distracted by countless items that point to a completely other purpose

All the evidence points to sarcophagi being nothing more than stone coffins. and if there are "countless items" showing otherwise, perhaps you can present them, perhaps in a thread devoted to Ancient Egyptian sarcophagi. However, while I'm about it, I would point out that if the sarcophagi in the Serapeum pre-existed AE civilization, something at least strongly hinted at by the fringe if not proclaimed outright, why would Amunhotep III have needed to build the first known tomb for an Apis bull when there was, according to the fringe, a large tomb, or would you prefer I say, "structure" if it helps with your confidence, containing ready to use sarcophagi. Answer here or start a new thread, preferable, for you can then write an OP setting out your case in detail, particularly about these "countless items" that distract you so.

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Refresh my memory on all that.   Are we saying Amunhotep III built his own tomb in addition to the Serapeum, or are we saying the Serapeum 'was' that tomb?   I seem to recall some other tomb that was a burial place for bulls, but I might be misremembering.   But I am aware of the idea of the Serapeum being used as tombs for the Apis bulls.   I saw the scratched vandalism on the sides of one of those beautiful pieces that was a fairly unimpressive attribution to someone, (empty cartouche?).   I'm in complete agreement that the Dynastic Egyptians of that time had beliefs about Apis bulls.   I just don't find it easy to make the assumption that the construction and transport, and 'fit' through those tight caverns, was something within their wheelhouse, if I'm respecting the very thorough work of archeology's established limitations of the tools available.  

But maybe there was a missing story of a BLIP - Brief Limited Industrial Period, that occurred prior to the Serapeum's construction, during known dynastic or old kingdom times, that could explain those necessary developments?     What ever collapse that erased knowledge of that hypothetical period must have interrupted the prioritized use of writing, as a result of  survivors being more focused on survival and gathering metals to make it through that time?

 

 

 

 

 

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