The Giza-Orion Blueprint

[Windowpane]

4 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

From my readings, it’s evident the ancient Egyptians placed a lot of emphasis on Orion’s Belt. The position of the Giza pyramids certainly allows for a strong sense of balance between both. 

 

 

Your link doesn’t work.

...

Kenemet's link worked fine for me -  Egyptian Constellations: A Complete List and Stories of Our Favorites - USVAO.

See also this archive site, sections 18 and 19 (scroll down).

 

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The position of Orion’s Belt may have changed but considering how many light years they are separated in distance and the time frame of construction of the pyramids, it’s impossible to suggest that the general positions of the 3 stars has changed. 

 

Ah!  But you've forgotten that, if we apply the concept of Scott's Moving Timeline to the construction of the pyramids, almost anything is possible.

(Like a present-day Dr. Who script, that my husband grumbles is almost completely incomprehensible.)

[Thanos5150]

20 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

Yes, but that line is almost straight.  Surely that's important?

Indisputable FACT 1 on which EVERYONE can agree: the Giza Plateau is pretty big.  (I've never been, nor has Scotty, but we've seen photos.)I

You sure about that...?  

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Indisputable FACT 2: some alignments at Giza form almost-straight lines.

Indisputable FACT 3: the Egyptians did NOT have rulers that long.

So how did they manage to line up buildings so almost-perfectly?  The only logical logic is:

Probable Fact 4: the Egyptians must have used lasers.

Indisputable FACT 5: but lasers weren't invented until 1960.  (Had to look that up.)

Probable Fact 6: so where did the Egyptians get their lasers from?  Isn't it obvious?  ALIENS!  Or Atlanteans possibly.

Also - if Scotty is right and the AEs designed all those maths constants into their buildings - 'phi' and 'pi' are Greek letters which didn't exist until centuries later.  How did the Egyptians know about them 2000 years earlier?  ALIENS.  Gotta be.  (Or time travel?  Or time-travelling aliens?  Can't rule out Dr Who's intervention.  (But not Jodie Wotsername.  Sorry luv, but you wos rubbish.))

So there you have it.  Aliens dunnit.  Aliens wot obviously came from Al Nitak or perhaps the other one.  Let's just agree with Scotty and end this bloody thread.

 

Or...Fact 7 they used the simple surveying equipment and grid system we know they had.  

[Tom1200]

28 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

You sure about that...? 

Okay, I concede that point.  @Scott Creightonmight possibly have visited Giza, maybe even several times.  Heck, he might live there for all I know.  But none of that makes him an authority or expert, and when he's talking silly nonsense it's right that we all challenge his dodgy science and history.

30 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

You sure about that...?  

Or...Fact 7 they used the simple surveying equipment and grid system we know they had.  

Are you saying they set out Giza with only ropes and sticks and stuff, no lasers or GPS?  Why didn't the aliens help out more?

Fact 8 - aliens are selfish.

[Thanos5150]

14 minutes ago, Tom1200 said:

Okay, I concede that point.  @Scott Creightonmight possibly have visited Giza, maybe even several times.  Heck, he might live there for all I know.  But none of that makes him an authority or expert, and when he's talking silly nonsense it's right that we all challenge his dodgy science and history.

Giza get millions of tourists a year. I don't think the act of going there makes one an expert, no? But your original premise was that he was not an authority because, like you, he had not been there. Which is it Tom? 

And I don't think the public is in an any danger from thinking Scott is an "authority or expert" other than of his own nonsense which he is not claiming to be regardless. Not following you about this challenging business. You appear to be saying we should challenge him because he is not an expert or authority, but we shouldn't challenge him if he were...?  

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Are you saying they set out Giza with only ropes and sticks and stuff, no lasers or GPS?  Why didn't the aliens help out more?

Fact 8 - aliens are selfish.

You seem preoccupied with aliens for some reason. Can you please quote to me where Scott, or Bauval, make any mention of aliens? 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

17 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Nope.

In fact, Orion's belt is never mentioned by the ancient Egyptians.  Also, the shape of the constellation changed over time (the number of stars included) and during one time period it was actually two constellations (according to the AE's), with the belt being the pharaoh's crown (part of the constellation of Lepus was included.) Egyptian Constellations: A Complete List and Stories of Our Favorites - USVAO

Is an ad website with a blog in it really a source? 

But they do depict it which to them it was a crown and not a belt which the god Sah is a representation.   

There are two famous constellations among the southern stars called Ikhemw-wredj (unwearying stars): a constellation called Sah corresponding to the current Onion's Belt and Sirius called Sepdet. The name Sah was first found in the “Pyramid Text” engraved in the Pyramid of Unas, the last king of the 5th Dynasty, Old Kingdom (reign: from 2340 B.C. to 2320 B.C.). The figures of Sah and Sepdet were also drawn on lids of wooden coffins between the First Intermediate Period and Middle Kingdom. Since Sah represented in hieroglyph was positioned above the head, the Orion's Belt was assumed to be crown on the head of Sah. Further Sepdet (Sirius) opposed to Sah was drawn as goddess with was scepter in her hand.

The tomb of Senenmut as described before also shows a man on board as a figure representing Sah. This man holds Was scepter in his left hand and “Ankh”, symbol of life, in his right hand. Due to his long beard, he is believed to be a god. In ancient Egypt, a male figure with a long beard represents either king or god. Around Sah in the tomb of Senenmut, a constellation composed of big three stars was drawn, which corresponds to the Orion’s Belt. In the lower right position of these three stars, rather little nine stars were aligned vertically toward under Sah’s boat. From this point, we can presume Sah was the constellation containing some stars in addition to the Orion’s Belt.

Ancient Egyptian Astronomy

 

[Kenemet]

25 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Is an ad website with a blog in it really a source? 

But they do depict it which to them it was a crown and not a belt which the god Sah is a representation.   

There are two famous constellations among the southern stars called Ikhemw-wredj (unwearying stars): a constellation called Sah corresponding to the current Onion's Belt and Sirius called Sepdet. The name Sah was first found in the “Pyramid Text” engraved in the Pyramid of Unas, the last king of the 5th Dynasty, Old Kingdom (reign: from 2340 B.C. to 2320 B.C.). The figures of Sah and Sepdet were also drawn on lids of wooden coffins between the First Intermediate Period and Middle Kingdom. Since Sah represented in hieroglyph was positioned above the head, the Orion's Belt was assumed to be crown on the head of Sah. Further Sepdet (Sirius) opposed to Sah was drawn as goddess with was scepter in her hand.

The tomb of Senenmut as described before also shows a man on board as a figure representing Sah. This man holds Was scepter in his left hand and “Ankh”, symbol of life, in his right hand. Due to his long beard, he is believed to be a god. In ancient Egypt, a male figure with a long beard represents either king or god. Around Sah in the tomb of Senenmut, a constellation composed of big three stars was drawn, which corresponds to the Orion’s Belt. In the lower right position of these three stars, rather little nine stars were aligned vertically toward under Sah’s boat. From this point, we can presume Sah was the constellation containing some stars in addition to the Orion’s Belt.

Ancient Egyptian Astronomy

 

I often use a convenient source (and try to check reliability.)  In this case, the "pharaoh's head" and "it was two constellations" (etc) is something that I've encountered before in sources that I found to be decent.  I believe that the figure you're citing is part of the evidence for this (the "other stars" referred to in your citation come from the constellation Lepus.)

Sorry for brief response.  it's been a week of medical procedures, so I'm hopping in and out. 

[Kenemet]

13 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

If Giza was a master plan you would have done all of your surveying before these things were built and/or any number of scenarios which line of sight would not be an impediment.   

Scott's theories aside, it seems impossible to be coincidence to put the center or your circle in the center of G2, the center pyramid, that you could draw a circle to neatly enclose these pyramids as it does even sniffing the Sphinx's butt on your way:

 

Among other things which would include the equally non-coincidental "Heliopolis Line" running from G3-a to G1-a through the corners of G3 and G1 straight to Heliopolis. I don't have any thought as to why they did what they did, but it does seem it was done on purpose. 

I'm not sure that there was an original master plan... but equally, I'm not sure that there was NOT an original master plan.  Djedefre's pyramid (the remains of it) suggests to me that any "master plan" would have come later.

One argument (for me) against an original "master plan" along those lines is that the mastabas interfere with the line of sight if you were standing on the original land and trying to lay out an overall plan.  I would have also thought that for doing a master plan, you would completely level all the land at the mega-site.

We don't see that (IMHO) when we look at the elevation data

[Tom1200]

3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Giza get millions of tourists a year. I don't think the act of going there makes one an expert, no? But your original premise was that he was not an authority because, like you, he had not been there. Which is it Tom? 

C'mon Thanos - you're usually sharper than this.

[Thanos5150]

2 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

C'mon Thanos - you're usually sharper than this.

You're a beat up clown who's not an expert at anything. 

So where is that quote about aliens? 

[Thanos5150]

9 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I'm not sure that there was an original master plan... but equally, I'm not sure that there was NOT an original master plan. 

Regardless of the sequence, the end result to me certainly infers a master plan.  

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Djedefre's pyramid (the remains of it) suggests to me that any "master plan" would have come later.

On the surface this is plausible, but there could be several explanations as to why this would not preclude a master plan prior to his ascending the throne. He choose Abu Roash for a reason and among other things was a very interesting fellow the least of which he established the cult of RA above all other gods. The master plan was set though he for whatever reason he choose to not be a part of it though he helped finish parts of it. 

As an aside, it is curious that Djedefre is the son of Khufu, king perhaps only because of Kawab's premature death, who had at least 3 male heirs, Hornit, Baka, and Setka and yet the throne supposedly went to Khafre, another of Khufu's sons, upon his death and not one of his own sons. There is the nebulous Bikheris who may or may not have been a king of the 4th Dynasty which some have speculated this may have been Baka though this is all pretty loose. Manetho gives a reign of 22yrs, Eratosthenes 10yrs, and the Turin Canon 2yrs for an unnamed pharaoh which Bikheris is speculated to be the likely choice. Even more interesting is that the Saqqara King list has 5 pharaohs between Khafre and Userkaf where we only know of 2. If there were a king or kings between these pharaohs like Djedefre it stands to reason one of their heirs would have ascended the throne but again we have Khafre. 

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One argument (for me) against an original "master plan" along those lines is that the mastabas interfere with the line of sight if you were standing on the original land and trying to lay out an overall plan.  I would have also thought that for doing a master plan, you would completely level all the land at the mega-site.

Isn't that the point that the plan was laid out before the mastabas were built? And again, this would not be a deterrent if necessary. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Unusual Tournament]

20 hours ago, Windowpane said:

Kenemet's link worked fine for me -  Egyptian Constellations: A Complete List and Stories of Our Favorites - USVAO.

See also this archive site, sections 18 and 19 (scroll down).

The link you posted works fine now. I was provided a link that suggests scholars are divided on the matter. 

[Windowpane]

21 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

Okay, I concede that point.  @Scott Creightonmight possibly have visited Giza, maybe even several times.

...

Aha! 

For Scott Creighton fans everywhere - an image of him in front of the three pyramids at Giza:

(And it is a real image, and not a composite one: I've seen that photo several times over the past fifteen years or so.  [Oh ... where does the time go ... ??])

And, for those fans who just can't get enough of their idol, here's the image of Scott and Robert Bauval together at Giza (scroll down).

[Thanos5150]

1 hour ago, Windowpane said:

Aha! 

For Scott Creighton fans everywhere - an image of him in front of the three pyramids at Giza:

Hmm....

[Tom1200]

8 hours ago, Windowpane said:

Aha! 

For Scott Creighton fans everywhere - an image of him in front of the three pyramids at Giza:

(And it is a real image, and not a composite one: I've seen that photo several times over the past fifteen years or so.  [Oh ... where does the time go ... ??])

And, for those fans who just can't get enough of their idol, here's the image of Scott and Robert Bauval together at Giza (scroll down).

Those could be any old pyramids!

[Piney]

9 hours ago, Windowpane said:

Aha! 

For Scott Creighton fans everywhere - an image of him in front of the three pyramids at Giza:

(And it is a real image, and not a composite one: I've seen that photo several times over the past fifteen years or so.  [Oh ... where does the time go ... ??])

And, for those fans who just can't get enough of their idol, here's the image of Scott and Robert Bauval together at Giza (scroll down).

I just read Bauval's biography.............

 

[+joc]

58 minutes ago, Piney said:

I just read Bauval's biography.............

 

So, he basically stole Hurtak's idea?

[Piney]

30 minutes ago, joc said:

So, he basically stole Hurtak's idea?

Hurtak the star seed sound crank? 

[+joc]

34 minutes ago, Piney said:

Hurtak the star seed sound crank? 

Not that Hartak...

James J. Hurtak who wrote The Orion Mysteries 20 years before Bauval ever thought about a connection between Orion and the three pyramids.

(I read Bauval's biography too)

[Piney]

1 minute ago, joc said:

Not that Hartak...

James J. Hurtak who wrote The Orion Mysteries 20 years before Bauval ever thought about a connection between Orion and the three pyramids.

(I read Bauval's biography too)

Yes it is.

He was a crank extraordinaire who tried to smash every single religion together with his "Enochian" crappola. 

[+joc]

11 hours ago, joc said:

11 hours ago, Piney said:

Hurtak the star seed sound crank? 

Not that Hartak...

Me and google had a slight misunderstanding...

 

He is also a UFO 'expert'...

UFO experts gather at San Diego conference

"We are closer to realizing we are not alone, and these fast-flying loose objects show us we are not alone in the universe," said Dr. James J. Hurtak.

So, the old adage...Birds of a feather flock together applies...

[Kenemet]

On 8/31/2023 at 9:39 PM, Thanos5150 said:

Isn't that the point that the plan was laid out before the mastabas were built? And again, this would not be a deterrent if necessary. 

There's a handful of tombs that predate Khufu on the plateau.  Are you suggesting that the original architects drew up a plan for all three major pyramids plus the 10 minor pyramids and the major mastabas and then they agreed upon and started construction?  And that they planned to have the big mastaba put where it blocked line of sight?

I think a better explanation is that there was no master plan, but each king planned his own area.  That would explain some of the haphazardly arranged tombs in the middle of a group of rather well ordered tombs.  I also think it explains why the whole plateau isn't leveled to one elevation but that the areas around each of the pyramids is leveled to suit that structure and its enclosure and temples. 

 

[Scott Creighton]

26 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

There's a handful of tombs that predate Khufu on the plateau.  Are you suggesting that the original architects drew up a plan for all three major pyramids plus the 10 minor pyramids and the major mastabas and then they agreed upon and started construction?  And that they planned to have the big mastaba put where it blocked line of sight?

I think a better explanation is that there was no master plan, but each king planned his own area.  That would explain some of the haphazardly arranged tombs in the middle of a group of rather well ordered tombs.  I also think it explains why the whole plateau isn't leveled to one elevation but that the areas around each of the pyramids is leveled to suit that structure and its enclosure and temples. 

“It is certainly clear that at Giza, more than ever before, cardinality was a principal concern. Khufu’s pyramid is laid out with its sides oriented almost exactly to true north - the greatest deviation is under 5', and the 4th-dynasty builders took pains to ensure that major parts of the pyramid complexes would align. The Giza diagonal line passes close to the diagonal of Menkaure’s first subsidiary pyramid (GIII-a), the front of Khafre’s mortuary temple and Khufu’s first subsidiary pyramid (Gl-a). The west sides of Khufu’s and Khafre’s pyramids are close to alignment with the fronts of the pyramid temples of Khafre and Menkaure respectively; and the south side of Khafre’s pyramid aligns with the south wall of the Sphinx Temple. These alignments are out by just about the amount that we would expect from methods of sighting and measuring using long cords across a kilometre of sloping plateau. The great northeast-southwest Giza diagonal ends to the southwest at a small hillock of the Maadi Formation that may have been useful as a ‘back sight’ for the ancient surveyors, which they could use to align points across the plateau.” – Lehner, The Complete Pyramids, p.106 (my emphasis).

SC

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Scott Creighton

[Windowpane]

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The pyramids at Giza were built over the span of three generations ...  Any overview of thse colossal human achievements in stone must take into consideration the natural geology of the land they were built on.  The southeast corners of the pyramids of Khufu, Khafre and Menkaure are nearly aligned on the great Giza diagonal that runs about 43 deg east of true north, almost perpendicular to the dip of the plateau.  This follows what geologists call the strike of the Mokattam Formation, that is, a line perpendicular to the slope.  When you walk along the side of a hill without going up or down, you are following the strike.  By aligning themselves to this, the builders ensured that the bases of the three main pyramids were at approximately the same level, although the base of Khafre's is about 10m (33 ft) higher than Khufu's (Lehner, The Complete Pyramids, p.106).

 

[Tom1200]

15 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

“It is certainly clear that at Giza, more than ever before, cardinality was a principal concern. Khufu’s pyramid is laid out with its sides oriented almost exactly to true north - the greatest deviation is under 5',

Isn't a fundamental feature of your theories the "fact" that there is no invariant reference point called True North?

That the Earth's axis of orbit is fundamentally unstable, and precesses and jumps - even flipping 180° - at random times?

That "evidence" for such massive instantaneous changes is visible in the non-alignment of ancient buildings to (current) true north?  (Tell el Hammam, etc.)

That the Giza plateau monuments were arranged, if not actually constructed, about 10,000 BC?

So - as multiple posters have tried pointing out - for your ideas to work we have to believe that in the last 12,000 years the Earth's axis has repeatedly wandered or flipped, occasionally resting in a new position long enough for entire monuments to be built to the 'new' alignments, before returning to the exact location, where we are now, within 5' of 12,000 years ago.

And then, equally mysteriously, everything stabilised since the pyramids were actually built.  Everything went back to as it always was: stability going so far back that even our cave-dwelling ancestors could measure the Great Year to three sig. figs.  (According to other threads.)

But you've offered no mechanism for how any of this might happen, nor (and, IMO, this is crucial) paleomagnetic evidence which would capture so dramatic shifts in the crust's alignment.  (Unless you believe the entire planet rotated off axis at the same time?)

It's a shame the Göbekli Tepians, for all their brilliance, failed to notice or record any of this even though it was happening at exactly the same time they were building their 'temples'.  If only the Ancient Britons had adapted Stonehenge to reflect these dramatic changes?  Or any ancient peoples anywhere.  If only there was a single scrap of tangible evidence we could work with!

Edited September 3, 2023 by Tom1200

[atalante]

On 8/30/2023 at 2:47 PM, Kenemet said:

Nope.

In fact, Orion's belt is never mentioned by the ancient Egyptians.  Also, the shape of the constellation changed over time (the number of stars included) and during one time period it was actually two constellations (according to the AE's), with the belt being the pharaoh's crown (part of the constellation of Lepus was included.) Egyptian Constellations: A Complete List and Stories of Our Favorites - USVAO

Ancient skywatchers were more likely to look at the Winter Triangle constellation (rather than Orion's Belt).  By coincidence, the Winter Triangle appears close in the sky to Orion's Belt.  The points of the Winter Triangle are the 3 brightest stars in that part of the sky.  It does not take much imagination to see that the so-called Winter Triangle actually forms a triangle.  And, surpise surprise, the Egypt's famous star Sirius is one of the corner stars in the Winter Triangle. 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Triangle

Edited September 3, 2023 by atalante