WITCHCRAFT, anyone?

[starlitkate]

I can see where the problems have come from. The moderators at this site try very hard to make sure all religions get treated with respect here. This does not mean that we will jump on every argument. We do not wish to stop discussions, debate is healthy when carried out properly, and it is a better way to learn tolerance than not listening at all.

Starlitkate, if you read through advice on a thread like this you will notice that the pagans will never tell someone to run out and become a witch. They will allways tell people  to learn and study before making there choice. Decisions about any religion should not be taken lightly.

566893[/snapback]

Nor did I tell her to become a witch, nor did I tell her to convert to Christianity. I just said that she should first ask if she beleived in God, and made the mistake of saying paganism was evil. Where I'am new to this sight, I never thought I was doing wrong. I didn't understand the carelessness of my actions, but they therfor weren't intentional to hurt others. And I realized that... And if everyone was pickpocketed in front of everyone else rather than just havin the thread closed, then we'd all have our names on the list.

[Faeden]

Hi starlitkate

I think you have found your self in a bit of a pickle. Maybe this should be a lesson to you, that if you call peoples beliefs "sins" or "evil" people will defend themselves. Theirs nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone’s beliefs, and theirs nothing wrong with thinking they are evil if you keep it to your self. Your beliefs are your right, but when you cross the line is when you verbally attack someone’s beliefs as "sinful" or against god, or evil ect ect. There are many Christians here that have a belief that paganism is wrong, but they dont tell pagans they are evil, even the extremists here find a line they dont cross, and show a respect to people, being that they understand this is a site about the paranormal and supernatural, and will inevitably have people from all sorts of different faiths, respect that starlitkate and your do fine I’m guilty of getting angry at extremist beliefs, I am not going to lie, I dont like extremism, I think its the problem with the world.

All the best

Faeden

Edited April 11, 2005 by Faeden

[cozmic]

christian or pagan, a closed mind will always defend by attacking. why worry about being called 'evil'? evil is the christian/judaic word for anyone who doesn't believe in their god or who dares look elsewhere for spiritual fulfilment. the satan/devil/fallen angel did not exist before the bible invented him. outside of that term of reference it has no meaning. 'devil' worshippers have bought into the christian myth as much as the christians themselves. break out and set your goat free!

[gsr]

Actually in order to see how *Christianity was used as a control method for the public you have to go back to it's roots and the politics that surrounded its use when it first gained public attention.

Most cultures had a myriad of gods who collectively represented light and dark or good and evil, these where quite often governed by or parented by two important dieties usualy one male and one female, Like the Egyptians who had 'Ra' the god of the sun and 'Isis' who was the godess of the moon.

Any-way all of this has less importance than my actual point, which is, when Christianity came to the fore it was the first religion to draw a definate line in the sand between Good and Evil. It insisted that if you where not in league with there God(part of the heavenly solution) then you must be in league with there devil(part of the problem). This meant that people who had practised other religions should be punished.

The Christian or more acurately the Catholic and Protestant branches of Christianity eventually claimed all non God worshippers as Heretics and even passed laws and wrote such lovely literary treatise as the 'Maleus Malifarcum' and 'Demonolatry', which discribed so called cases of witchcraft (that never actually exsisted) and what to do with a witch if you ever came across one. Which in turn led to the mass slaughter of many non-believers and of course hundreds of innocents. The witch trials where not a deliberate means of disposing of neopagans but in many cases a by-product of scapegoatism. When a society is down and it is ravaged and plagued by mysterious deaths and disease they still today look for a scapegoat.

The devil was a new concept and of course a christian one of absolute evil and malevolence which before the advent of chrsitianity didn't actually exsist in the collective conscious of any society. Before this most of the gods and goddesses where seen as more human in nature they in turn had there own free will and could be either good or bad depending on how the mood effected them on the day. There was no line drawn that said if you worship Isis you will suffer great torture and pain and be sent for all eternity to purgatory.  This concept was conjured by the same minds who thought that if you pricked somebody all over with a sharp instrument, when you eventually found a small piece that didn't hurt it meant they where a witch and should be hung or burnt at the stake.

Between the 5th century A.D. and the 1700's it didn't pay to not follow a Christian god,and sometimes it didn't pay to follow a christian god. Many people who were killed under the so called banner of heresy and whitchcraft were church going Christians who were no more than scapegoats. Or part of the Catholic and Protestant battle for power.

* I do not mean for the term Christian to directly reflect on it's modern day religion. The term is used to describe the God/Devil religions  that sprung up in Europe and Fathered the churches we see today.

566368[/snapback]

Many forms shaministic cultures have had similar restrictions and punishments on those who did not worship or follow the rituals of their local deities. Most shaministic cultures have drawn lines of their ideas of good and evil. Usually this good and evil depended upon whether you were pleasing or angering the local deities. Human and animal sacrifices were sometimes used to please local deities. Displeasing or leading someone away from shaministic gods would also be sufficient cause for the death penalty.

Pantheistic religions relied on many gods and the pleasure of them all. Not all pantheistic religions are lacking in a place of eternal punishment. Many use reeincarnation as a means of escaping a single eternal punishment for all after death. The Babylonians believed in an underworld where the ekimmu of a person servives to a pit, house of darkness, land of no return to pay for all evil done in this life. Egypt has Maat weighing the heart of the dead against that of a long list of rules. If the test fails, the soul continued in darkness and misery. Vedic Indians hold to a place of nethermost darkness ruled by Yama. Yama, who runs the lands fo the good and bad aferlives. And there are a few more.

The concept of the devil by other names may have first been mentioned in the Tanakh, in the book of Job and in the Torah

Job 1:

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Genesis 3

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

and there are mentions of evil or troubling spirits and a sceance and in the Tanakh.

The books of the Torah were completed near the end of the life of Moses, and the Tanakh texts were in existence by about 400 BC. Collection and cannonization of the Tanakh did not formally occur until about 100 AD.

[The Raven]

The God known as Pan, Herne, Thor, Rah, The Green Man or Father Nature. He represents the sun.

I'm not here to disprove or discredit you, but I'm curious why you grouped Thor as a god representing Nature/Sun. I constantly study as much information on Norse culture as I can [Many here can confirm that] and Thor has nothing to do with Nature.

Thor is the Thunderer, the guardian of the Aesir [Hes slain a few giants in his time ] and husband to Sif the Golden Haired.

Nature, on the other hand, is well within the hands of Frigga who is connected with Easter, Goddess of Spring, who is seen walking through fields when spring has come.

Frigga herself spins the clouds out of a silky material, and is wife of Odin.

Frey on the other hand is the God of the Sun, Spring, and Elves. Elves are the caretakers and protectors of Nature, and all of them answer to Frey and the Aesir [Taking Svaltalfar, or black elves/ dwarves, out of that equation]

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this, CharmedFan3, because many sources, even some books, I have known to be terribly false -- one of the books I read stated that Thor is the mighty God of War. That is false, for Odin and his son Tyr fill that position, and show it during Ragnarok/Götterdammurung. The only thing you can really rely Norse knowledge on, are the Icelandic Eddas, the greatest and last standing sagas of the race.

Edited April 11, 2005 by The Raven

[Faeden]

Hi gsr

I’m glad you have decided to join the conversation

Many forms shaministic cultures have had similar restrictions and punishments on those who did not worship or follow the rituals of their local deities. Most shaministic cultures have drawn lines of their ideas of good and evil. Usually this good and evil depended upon whether you were pleasing or angering the local deities. Human and animal sacrifices were sometimes used to please local deities.

Please can you show me proof that the ancient shamanic cultures punished people for not worshipping set gods or beliefs? And id like real historic facts, not some god fearing persons word that I am expected to believe just because they tell me to.

Your find that many Pagan cultures that the European Christians found in there exploration, the natives welcomed them, and where fascinated by the European Christian beliefs. They tolerated them, and some even mixed some Christianity or Catholicism in with there own beliefs, the Christian settlers where not so tolerant unfortunately, and raped the natives culture and beliefs. The horrific our come of this can be seen in the example of what happened to the native American people, and the conflicts and unease in Africa, where Christianity has got a strong hold.

Yes the ancients sacrificed people and animals, but your find the evidence shows that the people that where sacrificed where volunteers, more often than not they seem to have had a terminal illness, or where old and would not have made it through the coming winter. And the evidence also suggests that it was a lot less common than people like your self would like people to believe.

Lets not forget that Christians used to sacrifice animals too, they also sacrificed people at the stake not to far back in history. Muslims still sacrifice animals today, they do barbaric slaughter of live wolves in some sick twisted ritual they do, on some festival I cant remember the name of. And nor do I care to remember.

Displeasing or leading someone away from shaministic gods would also be sufficient cause for the death penalty.

Again please can you show me evidence of this? In ancient times they had shamanic leaders, that where like the priests of today, they took care of the spiritual well being of there clans, it was not of real importance that clan members of them times worshipped there gods, as that is what the shamans where for, the shaman dedicated him/her selves to the gods and contact with the other worlds, so the other clan members would not have to.

Pantheistic religions relied on many gods and the pleasure of them all. Not all pantheistic religions are lacking in a place of eternal punishment. Many use reeincarnation as a means of escaping a single eternal punishment for all after death.

This is a ridiculous thing to say, as the ancients believed in reincarnation long before the idea of a eternity in hell or suffering in pain was even thought of, so there goes your argument for them using reincarnation as a means to escape the idea of eternal punishment. Why would they use reincarnation as a means to ignore a eternity in hell, if it had not even been invented then? Who told you that I wonder, a pastor ?

I think your find most of what you have said is founded on no structure, other than what god fearing people have told you, none of it fits with historic fact.

All the best

Faeden

Edited April 11, 2005 by Faeden

[Kismit]

Gsr,

Many religions had one diety, or series of Dieties, who collectively represented both light and darkness. Good and Bad where rolled into one. The developement of Mazdaism, the faith based on the teachings of Zoroatser (c. 638-553 B.C.), saw a different approach to the world. In this religion, the good god, Ahura Mazda, was in conflict with the evil god Ahriman. This Good-verse-Evil notion influenced Judaism and later had a huge influence on Christian thinking.

In the Old Testament, the developement of Satan as this personification of an Evil force was gradual. "Satan," the Hebrew word for this force simply meant "adversiary," or "the obstructor."

But during the age of the apocryphal and apocolyptic writtings from around 200 B.C. to A.D.150, Satan became a more defined figure in Hebrew thought. As in Mazdaism, the devil in Judaism became a tangible figure of the dark, set in opposition to the light and to God. He was, to them a fallen angel. Courtesy of (a very well researched), Witchcraft, a secret history, written by Michael Streeter.

Yes, there where other religions that had drawn a line between God and his adversiary. But Christianity was taken to the masses in literay form and through outright invasion. It encompassed many of the same traights and beliefs as Pagan cultures, for it even had it's own great magicians who could turn water into wine but it still had that main difference, pergatory and the devil. A devil which never originated as a horned God but as a fallen angel, it would later become a horned figure similar to that of Cerenus, the celtic God. Perhaps, and most likely deliberately as this minor change could influence the legal right to inforce the charge of Heresy. For if you worshiped the horned God you were obviuosly a heretic and a direct threat to the Church. Can't run a country if its people do not follow you, can you now?

The Egyptians did have a wieght that measured how good your heart was, it also had several other tests which needed to be undertaken for you to reach full enlightenment or the actual Egyptian heaven, in this way it is similar to Hinduism with its many layers of heaven. It also had the Godess 'Isis' who gave birth as a miracle *virgin birth to the powerful God 'Horus' a magician who performed great and powerful feats of magic, so I guess Egyptian punishments for misbehaiving were not the only similarity between the two religions.

However the Christian faith took advantage of the printing press and was also courted in some very powerful places like Rome, which was to lead quite a few invasions in the name of this new religion. I guess these are some of the reasons why we don't sit around arguing that Horus was the true prophet and we should all pay homage to 'Ra' the Father God. For if the Egyptians had taken advantage of print and forcibly invaded others, the spirituality board would look a good deal different.

* This virginal birth is in accordance with the term Virgin meaning un-wed or young. As it was meant in the time of the Old Testament.

Edited April 11, 2005 by Kismit