The Rise of Birth Control & the Decline of Civilization

[+OverSword]

Quote

 

In The Sociological Tradition, Robert Nisbet referred to the Industrial and French Revolutions as the two great ideas of the western world.[1] No two events so dramatically altered civilization as significantly, their temporal overlap only intensifying their effects.

If the two Revolutions are the two great ideas of the Western world, then the third great idea must be birth control. No innovation has fundamentally altered the premises of civilization quite like birth control.

 

Link

Warning, long read

[quiXilver]

I would argue that two other principles have had far more impact on 'civilization'.

The concept of land ownership and the shared notion of paper money having value.

[+OverSword]

8 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

I would argue that two other principles have had far more impact on 'civilization'.

The concept of land ownership and the shared notion of paper money having value.

Amazing that you can state that seven minutes after I posted.  You read really fast.

[tcgram]

Having read most of the article (it WAS rather long as was warned), I am struck by what I see at my work every week.    Evidently, lower income people do not either have access to birth control or do not care to use it as we see a lot of unwanted pregnancies.   Some abort, most do not and then we see parents ignoring their babies and children.   Foster parents seem to be on the rise in our county as well.   So I am not sure that what I read so far in the article is true or not.    

[XenoFish]

Self-control, that's almost a forgotten phrase. Along with self-responsibility. The last time I encouraged people to be responsible for their own choices I got insulted. 

Hedonist always run themselves into the ground. 

[Occupational Hubris]

Jesus christ. The entire things reads that women shouldn't enjoy sex and so only have sex in marriage for birth. Same absolute hot conservative garbage that women have no agency and their only utility is childbirth

Edited September 16, 2023 by Occupational Hubris

[Hankenhunter]

39 minutes ago, Occupational Hubris said:

Jesus christ. The entire things reads that women shouldn't enjoy sex and so only have sex in marriage for birth. Same absolute hot conservative garbage that women have no agency and their only utility is childbirth

That's what I found also. 

[tcgram]

44 minutes ago, Occupational Hubris said:

Jesus christ. The entire things reads that women shouldn't enjoy sex and so only have sex in marriage for birth. Same absolute hot conservative garbage that women have no agency and their only utility is childbirth

I got that idea as well from the article.   I had to go back and finish what I was reading.   

[+OverSword]

The misogynism take is the result of people incorrectly believing that the purpose of sex is pleasure/recreation which is the world most of us have grown up in, but that is a lie and not how nature intended it to be.  Having to deal with the consequences associated with having sex is truly what society was based on and gave it some structure through the family unit.  Now society is imploding due to the devaluation of that unit.  I believe the trivialization of sex has indeed led to a loss of purpose and duty for people and changed society for the worse.  It has led to a world full of irresponsible man-boys.

[quiXilver]

That rings of oversimplification.

[Euphorbia]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:04 AM, OverSword said:

The misogynism take is the result of people incorrectly believing that the purpose of sex is pleasure/recreation which is the world most of us have grown up in, but that is a lie and not how nature intended it to be.  Having to deal with the consequences associated with having sex is truly what society was based on and gave it some structure through the family unit.  Now society is imploding due to the devaluation of that unit.  I believe the trivialization of sex has indeed led to a loss of purpose and duty for people and changed society for the worse.  It has led to a world full of irresponsible man-boys.

Nature has no intentions.

[Tatetopa]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:04 AM, OverSword said:

The misogynism take is the result of people incorrectly believing that the purpose of sex is pleasure/recreation which is the world most of us have grown up in, but that is a lie and not how nature intended it to be.  Having to deal with the consequences associated with having sex is truly what society was based on and gave it some structure through the family unit.  Now society is imploding due to the devaluation of that unit.  I believe the trivialization of sex has indeed led to a loss of purpose and duty for people and changed society for the worse.  It has led to a world full of irresponsible man-boys.

Sure, if sex was not desirable, reproduction would diminish.  So to if sex did not strengthen pair bonding, the cost of raising  offspring that are slow to mature would be prohibitive.

If you look back of most of human history, it was not man and woman against the world, they would seldom survive.  It was a group both of closely related individuals and individuals that married into the group.  Bonding on a larger scale. 

Hunting on a large scale, agriculture, and most of the activities we participate in today are accomplished by large groups not nuclear families.  

A village similar to Native American  or historical models might have relied on some communal housing, some individual housing and communal farm and hunting land.  People survived as a group.  Families, clans and other groups had to have strong bonds.

But about half this article is an excuse and apology for men wanting to be maintain a society now gone.  You could blame our incredible economic success as much as anything.

It all falls flat as an excuse for men having idle hands because they have not reproduced.  Wives are a motivation, but so are families and peers.  I do not believe that any CEO, scientist, soldier, or corporate climber does it because of a family.  In fact many ignore their families  in their rise to greatness.  It is status and that opinion of society and other men that drive a lot of that behavior as much as families.

[spartan max2]

On 9/21/2023 at 1:04 PM, OverSword said:

The misogynism take is the result of people incorrectly believing that the purpose of sex is pleasure/recreation which is the world most of us have grown up in, but that is a lie and not how nature intended it to be.  Having to deal with the consequences associated with having sex is truly what society was based on and gave it some structure through the family unit.  Now society is imploding due to the devaluation of that unit.  I believe the trivialization of sex has indeed led to a loss of purpose and duty for people and changed society for the worse.  It has led to a world full of irresponsible man-boys.

Society was built and based around survival. Nature dosen't give a **** about you or anyone of us. If anything its always trying to kill us lol.

As humanity got greater control over our environment and safety we no longer had to focus solely on survival. We expanded into doing things that made us happy or that we enjoymed, society branched off into music, art, entertainment, etc.

Society isn't imploding. By most metrics the world is better off now than at any point in history. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by spartan max2

[quiXilver]

Nature may not care about us, but it also does not then despise us. 

 

Nature is what it is... and we are one inseperable direct expression within that unified unfolding process of the co-arising aggregates of this planet.  The environment that enfolds an organism is itself entirely comprised of organisms.  Not seperate things, but multiple facets of one complex process.

Our environment is as nurturing as it is threatening, simultaneously providing for and weeding us out, eventually.

[+OverSword]

2 hours ago, Euphorbia said:

Nature has no intentions.

Purpose then. Or are you going to argue that the purpose of sex is not procreation?

[Euphorbia]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Purpose then. Or are you going to argue that the purpose of sex is not procreation?

The purpose of sex is two fold.....yes procreating does produce children to keep our species alive, but without the pleasure factor no one would have sex. We wouldn't be here as a species without it.... 

[SHaYap]

Maybe that's why imagining and fantasising about sex is the real reason for the decline of modern civilization. 

Nothing will ever be better than fantasies and the imagined. 

~

[Tatetopa]

I scanned it again, but missed it.  What are the standards to measure the decline of civilization?

[XenoFish]

10 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

We expanded into doing things that made us happy or that we enjoymed

Isn't there a limit though. I love to eat, food is my weakness. Hypertension, obesity is the result of such a weakness. There has to be a self-imposed limit though. Unless the desire is to basically burn oneself out. With sex the hedonic curve get's higher and higher till nothing stimulates the person. Except the most extreme and possibly illegal things. Then nothing has an effect eventually. Which goes for all pleasure based activities, which is why hedonism isn't worth it. 

[+OverSword]

I stick with my statement. The deterioration of the family unit is a primary driver for a decline in our society. The statistics associated with criminals and fatherless homes bears out my assertion. There is so much crime that we now ignore a great deal of it because there simply aren’t the resources to deal with it, so don’t try to say that there is no decline.  The fatherless homes are driven by society viewing sex as having fewer consequences and responsibilities due to effective birth control changing what sex is to society.  Don’t get me wrong there are certainty more factors than the change of what sex is that contributes. 

[spartan max2]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Isn't there a limit though. I love to eat, food is my weakness. Hypertension, obesity is the result of such a weakness. There has to be a self-imposed limit though. Unless the desire is to basically burn oneself out. With sex the hedonic curve get's higher and higher till nothing stimulates the person. Except the most extreme and possibly illegal things. Then nothing has an effect eventually. Which goes for all pleasure based activities, which is why hedonism isn't worth it. 

Balance in all things. I would argue that being hedonistic dosen't really make people happy. 

[XenoFish]

Just now, spartan max2 said:

I would argue that being hedonistic dosen't really make people happy. 

https://www.theworldcounts.com/purpose/the-hedonic-paradox

It really doesn't surprise me that there has been a rise in depression. The pursuit of happiness being one of many factors.

[spartan max2]

9 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I stick with my statement. The deterioration of the family unit is a primary driver for a decline in our society. The statistics associated with criminals and fatherless homes bears out my assertion. There is so much crime that we now ignore a great deal of it because there simply aren’t the resources to deal with it, so don’t try to say that there is no decline.  The fatherless homes are driven by society viewing sex as having fewer consequences and responsibilities due to effective birth control changing what sex is to society.  Don’t get me wrong there are certainty more factors than the change of what sex is that contributes. 

Fatherless homes sound more like a lack of brith control than a birth control problem. Planned pregnancy seems more conducive to a strong family unit then surprise or accidental ones.

Also the crime rate is lower than it's been in decades.  

Edited September 24, 2023 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

https://www.theworldcounts.com/purpose/the-hedonic-paradox

It really doesn't surprise me that there has been a rise in depression. The pursuit of happiness being one of many factors.

From my experiences with families I honestly think a large amount of the "rise" in depression is just because society is more accepting of mental health and more willing to say they are depressed. A lot of older generations would never admit or believe such a thing. Many cultures still don't. Certain groups of really religious people will make it stigmatizing to say you're depression because if you believe in God you shouldn't be depressed or whatever.

Alot of parents who bring their kids tell me how watching their child struggle made them realize how they went through similar stuff but that no one ever thought to get them help. 

In my own personal life, my dad was very angry growing up. Eventually his doctor (around his 50's) suggested he try some anti-anxiety meds. He did and it worked magic. He became so much calmer and happier. His anger was a product of his intense anxiety. But him, like a lot in his generation, didn't recognize it as anxiety or of someone having anxiety.

Edited September 24, 2023 by spartan max2

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

From my experiences with families I honestly think a large amount of the "rise" in depression is just because society is more accepting of mental health and more willing to say they are depressed. A lot of older generations would never admit or believe such a thing. Many cultures still don't.

Alot of parents who bring their kids tell me how watching their child struggle made them realize how they went through similar stuff but that no one ever thought to get them help. 

As I stated one of many factors. It would be too difficult to completely define the cause. As it varies from person to person. 

However I do think certain ideas like the self esteem movement backfired. Plus the idea of 'positive thinking' failed as well.