The Rise of Birth Control & the Decline of Civilization

[+OverSword]

1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

Fatherless homes sound more like a lack of brith control than a birth control problem. Planned pregnancy seems more conducive to a strong family unit then surprise or accidental ones.

Also the crime rate is lower than it's been in decades.  

I know it sounds that way but it’s more complicated than that. It’s not how effective or ineffective birth control is. The decline of the family unit due to sex becoming a recreational activity has led to a lack of responsible behavior in men including unheard of numbers of sperm donors rather than fathers. The implementation of effective birth control has led to females lowering their standards of who they will have sex with. This has combined to contribute to looser morals and lower sense of responsibility. There was a time that this particular type of irresponsibility was socially unacceptable for reasons that are becoming increasingly apparent but now it’s fairly normal. 

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, OverSword said:

There is so much crime that we now ignore a great deal of it because there simply aren’t the resources to deal with it, so don’t try to say that there is no decline.

I would say that is a valid measure.

The decline in families might be merely another step in a longer process of fragmentation.  The decline of extended families, clans, tribes, and tight knit communities is an immediate precursor.   That larger group of "belonging" has nearly ceased to exist.  In modern society everybody is fair game.  

A larger organization eliminates smaller competing organizations.  In the heavy hands of an authoritarian state we see state run child care from a very early stage to present the correct message  China, North Korea, and the  Soviet Union come to mind.   Crime and unapproved sex still exist but are treated with a heavy hand.  

It our capitalist nations, it is more subtle, but still there. 

Most employers want an employee's first loyalty to be to the job, with families interfering as little as  possible.  To rise above a certain point in an organization, that interference must be cut to zero. Families are competing organizations to a capitalist controlled state.   It is not hard to see why a  capitalist structure  would want to control sex because it is a competing source of diversion and pleasure.  Depression, mental illness, and even crime are acceptable side effects for the state or corporations. 

With sufficient control  crime could be eliminated and sex could be strictly monitored, but it won't end the decline. Increased control of individuals by authoritarian states or corporate ones will not cause civilization to be reinvigorated and flourish.  

 A gifted writer might convincingly argue that the  way to save civilization would be to increase individual well being and satisfaction (not pleasure) and facilitate the human need for friendship, belonging, and community.  

 

 

[Cho Jinn]

A fundamental societal problem is the prevalence of fatherless males breaking things.  Conservatives would do well to promote free birth control.

[+Liquid Gardens]

On 9/24/2023 at 1:32 PM, OverSword said:

The decline of the family unit due to sex becoming a recreational activity has led to a lack of responsible behavior in men including unheard of numbers of sperm donors rather than fathers.

Historically, forever, sex has always been a recreational activity, especially for men.

On 9/24/2023 at 1:32 PM, OverSword said:

The implementation of effective birth control has led to females lowering their standards of who they will have sex with. This has combined to contribute to looser morals and lower sense of responsibility.

To clarify you mean 'your' morals.  The above contradicts your problem with men; if we had effective birth control then that should address the issue of supposedly 'unheard of numbers of sperm donors rather than fathers'.  "Females" have no greater responsibility to uphold certain standards of who they will have sex with than men do, and again if using effective birth control then 'the lower sense of responsibility' isn't really a factor, except possibly in the spreading of STDs.

On 9/24/2023 at 1:32 PM, OverSword said:

There was a time that this particular type of irresponsibility was socially unacceptable for reasons that are becoming increasingly apparent but now it’s fairly normal. 

Yes and that time not-so-coincidentally happened at the same time that women's rights and opportunities were severely restricted.  I always thought that the 'socially unacceptable' part of it was partly religion-inspired too, I don't think the reasons being offered at the time when it was unacceptable were focused on increased crime really.  But you appear to have bought into the 'society is imploding' thesis that is sold by certain media outlets so difficult for me to relate, it ain't 1968 man and we've already somehow survived times in our lives when crime was higher.

Picking birth control seems a weird choice to pin the supposed 'decline of civilization' on.  Why not increases in the ease of getting divorces, or decline in the belief in Christianity, or increased participation of women in the workforce?  Or how about increasing economic imbalances and the decline of the middle class, that one at least would seem to be more than just a correlation to the timing of the supposed 'decline' (which people have forever been saying has been happening...).

[+OverSword]

28 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Historically, forever, sex has always been a recreational activity, especially for men.

On 9/24/2023 at 10:32 AM, OverSword said:

Statistics bear out that we are currently off the charts as far as fatherless children go in the USA.

29 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

To clarify you mean 'your' morals.  The above contradicts your problem with men; if we had effective birth control then that should address the issue of supposedly 'unheard of numbers of sperm donors rather than fathers'.  "Females" have no greater responsibility to uphold certain standards of who they will have sex with than men do, and again if using effective birth control then 'the lower sense of responsibility' isn't really a factor, except possibly in the spreading of STDs.

I'm not talking about the morals of sex.  I'm taking about the standards of living in a polite society.

30 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Yes and that time not-so-coincidentally happened at the same time that women's rights and opportunities were severely restricted.  I always thought that the 'socially unacceptable' part of it was partly religion-inspired too

Go back 100 years ago, knock up the farmers daughter and see what happens if you don't take responsibility.  Nothing to do with religion, everything to do with a stable society.

[Piney]

18 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Statistics bear out that we are currently off the charts as far as fatherless children go in the USA.

I'm not talking about the morals of sex.  I'm taking about the standards of living in a polite society.

Go back 100 years ago, knock up the farmers daughter and see what happens if you don't take responsibility.  Nothing to do with religion, everything to do with a stable society.

Algonquians were big into recreational sex and sharing wives. But we didn't have a derelict problem. Why? Honor killings.

I actually think tribal people should actually be allowed to practice honor killing if your child is a criminal or recidivist dope fiend.

I'd put my derelict kid down like a rabid dog if it was legal. 

But the problem isn't a family unit. The problem is no sense of consequences because I know many single mothers who raised good kids. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Piney
brain fart

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

But the problem isn't a family unit. The problem is no sense of consequences because I know many single mothers who raised good kids. 

Regardless statistics concerning criminals bear out that the single parent household raises a disproportionate amount of criminals.

[Piney]

9 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Regardless statistics concerning criminals bear out that the single parent household raises a disproportionate amount of criminals.

I saw a equal amount as a tribal Peacekeeper, so you know what you can do with your statistics. 

[jmccr8]

50 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Statistics bear out that we are currently off the charts as far as fatherless children go in the USA.

I'm not talking about the morals of sex.  I'm taking about the standards of living in a polite society.

Go back 100 years ago, knock up the farmers daughter and see what happens if you don't take responsibility.  Nothing to do with religion, everything to do with a stable society.

Hi OverSword

There has always been single parent families all throughout history. Many women died giving birth, many men died of war and conflict. Medicine changed those odds so we grew up in a lull of sorts. Society and culture will always evolve, my country is now not the same one I swore an oath of alligence to as it has changed considerably.

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

I'm taking about the standards of living in a polite society.

I think there is even less of a connection between birth control and 'politeness' than there is between birth control and 'the decline' of society.

52 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Regardless statistics concerning criminals bear out that the single parent household raises a disproportionate amount of criminals.

So?  And thus? Statistics also bear out that developed countries with loose gun control laws have a disproportionate number of murders.  One of the responses, I'm pretty sure by you also, to these statistics is how is it fair that good people should be 'penalized' because of the actions of bad people, so why the opposite perspective here?  Birth control has been used successfully also to avoid the very thing you are concerned about, single parent households. 

If we just want to look at stats I think they pretty clearly show what the real problem group is: men.  They are disproportionately responsible for crime and most ills in our society.  I wonder how many criminals come from poor single parent households vs rich single parent households?  I'd bet more do, so maybe it's not the single parenthood that is the critical factor.

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Go back 100 years ago, knock up the farmers daughter and see what happens if you don't take responsibility.  Nothing to do with religion, everything to do with a stable society.

Yes, 100 years ago, when US women had been enjoying the right to vote for a whopping 3 years, so I guess we can add 'allowing women to vote' to our list of potential causes for societal decline.  For some reason I don't think shotgun weddings are a sign of a 'polite society' either so I'm not sure why you would be noting these times as examples of 'responsibility'.

[+OverSword]

22 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

so why the opposite perspective here?

What is my opposite perspective?  I never said do away with birth control or abortion.  I made the observation that birth control has undermined norms that made society more stable by making it easier for individuals to have less responsibility.

Edited September 27, 2023 by OverSword

[Tatetopa]

14 minutes ago, OverSword said:

What is my opposite perspective?  I never said do away with birth control or abortion.  I made the observation that birth control has undermined norms that made society more stable by making it easier for individuals to have less responsibility.

Are incels an alternative to birth control?

[+OverSword]

41 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Are incels an alternative to birth control?

Incels are possibly a result or symptom.  There was a time when every dork could almost count on being shackled with the responsibility of a family.  Now you have 40% of men having sex with 100% of the women and 60% of the men addicted to porn and bitter about not being deemed worthy to be in a relationship.

Edited September 27, 2023 by OverSword

[Tatetopa]

38 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Incels are possibly a result or symptom.  There was a time when every dork could almost count on being shackled with the responsibility of a family.  Now you have 40% of men having sex with 100% of the women and 60% of the men addicted to porn and bitter about not being deemed worthy to be in a relationship.

I ain't gonna buy that.  Your first statement is about sex, it has nothing to do with relationships.  Maybe that is how it was in your rock days with groupies, but I never had that experience.

Plenty of women want relationships, not sex.  Maybe one problem is that fewer men want relationships, just sex.  There is an imbalance there. 

To say they have to be trapped in a relationship to get sex is bogus.  Men who don't want a committed relationship mess around, some even have sex with prostitutes while their wives are pregnant. People that are resentful and feel trapped do not make good partners.

[XenoFish]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that maybe assumptions are being made. Perhaps and possible we're basing opinions on slivers of selective information that is treated as a whole. 

I feel like it's a "if I go by the internet" type of thing. I don't know

 My reality tunnel might not operate the same as some.

[+OverSword]

13 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I ain't gonna buy that.  Your first statement is about sex, it has nothing to do with relationships.  Maybe that is how it was in your rock days with groupies, but I never had that experience.

Plenty of women want relationships, not sex.  Maybe one problem is that fewer men want relationships, just sex.  There is an imbalance there. 

To say they have to be trapped in a relationship to get sex is bogus.  Men who don't want a committed relationship mess around, some even have sex with prostitutes while their wives are pregnant. People that are resentful and feel trapped do not make good partners.

Nothing I said is about sex per se.  It's the negative impact sex, supposedly minus the consequences (due to birth control) has had on the structure of society by weakening it's traditional roles.  Those traditional roles factually the basis of society.

Edited September 27, 2023 by OverSword

[Tatetopa]

23 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Nothing I said is about sex per se.

 

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Now you have 40% of men having sex with 100% of the women

Seems like sex and not relationships.

[+OverSword]

Just now, Tatetopa said:

 

Seems like sex and not relationships.

Without one you don't have the other as far as the type of relationships I'm citing. The relationships that are conditional and require accountability.

[spartan max2]

3 hours ago, OverSword said:

Go back 100 years ago, knock up the farmers daughter and see what happens if you don't take responsibility.  Nothing to do with religion, everything to do with a stable society.

Become an absent father who drinks too much, works all the time, and has affairs? 

I feel like you have a very romanticized view of 100 years ago.

Edited September 27, 2023 by spartan max2

[+OverSword]

24 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Become an absent father who drinks too much, works all the time, and has affairs? 

More common now than then.  

[spartan max2]

5 minutes ago, OverSword said:

More common now than then.  

It's more common now for modern day married fathers to be absent by drinking and working all the time than it was 100 years ago? Based on what data?

 

Oh and have more affairs. We didn't track cheating 100 years ago.

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

The data on cheating is actually pretty interest. 20% of men and 13% of women have cheated.

Interestingly, people born in the 1950s -1960s are the cohort that has the highest infidelity rate.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/americas-generation-gap-in-extramarital-sex

[+OverSword]

52 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

The data on cheating is actually pretty interest. 20% of men and 13% of women have cheated.

Interestingly, people born in the 1950s -1960s are the cohort that has the highest infidelity rate.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/americas-generation-gap-in-extramarital-sex

Because single people can’t cheat 

[+Liquid Gardens]

3 hours ago, OverSword said:

I made the observation that birth control has undermined norms that made society more stable by making it easier for individuals to have less responsibility.

Okay, I guess we just need to determine how valuable supposed 'stability' is; Chinese society seems more stable in the ways we are talking about than ours, but there's quite the cost.  What you call 'the trivialization of sex' also had the effect of providing greater freedom to women sexually, which leads to greater freedom in relationships.  And by greater freedom I mostly mean 'equal freedom that men always had'. 

I think maybe you're just going too far to too specific of a cause, birth control and sexual attitudes, for something that has multiple causes.  I don't doubt that two parent households do better on average, but I think there are way too many factors that lead to the growth of one parent ones than just psychological guesses about how other people process their sexual freedom.  There's a lot seemingly being overlooked, a lot of it very negative, that was going on in the good ol days when society was supposedly more 'stable', and some of those negative things can be tied to the lack of sexual freedom at those times.

[spartan max2]

2 hours ago, OverSword said:

More common now than then.  

(Using this post to ask an unrelated question).

I was curiously looking up single parent stats because of your post. And sadly around 50% of black kids live in a single family home. It was like 21% white, and 28% Hispanic.

How does the disparity in rates of minority single families fit into your birth control narrative?