The Rise of Birth Control & the Decline of Civilization

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Yeah. Historically woman didn't get advanced education or have careers.

In today's world that isn't the case. So either parent could be a stay at home parent if they wanted. It's not the Mom's responsibility anymore or less than it is the Dad's.

I can certainly tell you who I would have been less happy with had he stayed at home 

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, OverSword said:

Down? 

 

Yes, down... according to many sites.  From Wikipedia: After 1992, crime rates have generally trended downwards each year, with the exceptions of a slight increase in property crimes in 2001 and increases in violent crimes in 2005-2006, 2014-2016 and 2020-2021.^[ Crime in the United States - Wikipedia 

In my original statement I listed another source for statistics, but googling for "crime trends" (and not the levels of the past 3 years) will show how hugely crime has dropped since the beginning of modern policing (around 1900)

Quote

The fatherless households, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but the amount of women willing to have pre-marital non committed sex with these men is a phenomenon unseen at these rates in the past because the introduction of sexual freedom brought on by the pill has changed standards of behavior.

So you're saying that men are otherwise uninterested in sex until these sexually liberated women, armed with The Pill, started seducing them en masse?

I don't believe this.

In fact, if you look at other countries (that have had the pill much longer than the US ...and who have a high rate of non-marriage (Iceland, for instance)) you will find that these same conditions don't lead to the situations we see in the US.

As to "decline of family" I think you may be looking at the very unrealistic view of the 1950's-1970's sitcom families.  That was an era when divorce was difficult and (female) divorcees were considered scandalous (and looked down on (I was divorced in 1973, so I'm speaking from my experience and that of friends))  Men abandoned their families back then in many ways, including staying at work and just not coming home very often, leaving mom to deal with bills and everything else.

Traditional families (before the 1950's) involved multiple generations living together in a single home... so to achieve that you're going to have to move in with your parents or in-laws (unless you are the oldest surviving member of your family and in that case, you'll have to have the younger members of your family move into your house.  In middle class or lower class families, this often meant 6 or more people living in one or two bedroom apartments.  You'd probably be taking in a boarder to help with rent.

This European style multigenerational family living went back to before the Roman republic.

Just imagine living in a household like that, with the elder (parents and aunts and uncles) horning in on every discussion and every quarrel.  Instead of one or two decision makers, you have five or six and they have different agendas.  You (as a male) would be subject to everyone else's rules on eating, drinking, work, and living areas.  

You'd be expected to marry to raise the family fortunes.  You would be expected to financially support other family members.  Men would need to secure their fiancée's parents approval in order to marry -- and parents would see that you got introduced to the "right people" to marry.  Once you married, even if you hated each other you'd be expected to stay together.

And no, it doesn't cut down on crime.  

 

[spartan max2]

Kenment bringing of Iceland is a point I didn't consider.

You're focused on the US Oversword. But if you're consider the pill to be a driver of something we'd have to look at it across the globe.

At nations who use birth control like the US and those where people can barely access birth control.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_birth_control

[Tatetopa]

5 hours ago, OverSword said:

That was before the pill so he knew what the results/cost of sex were.  Right?  I suppose he could have went to the ***** house and got the clap 

We seem to have our wires crossed.  I think there were condoms even back then. How would that fulfill my father's or any mans desire for family and children?  It takes more than free sex to keep people together.

And what binds the generations, parents, grandparents, children?  I would say relationships pay the pivotal role in bonding families and holding people together. Maybe we have been loosing the art of  constructing and maintaining relationships.

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Kenment bringing of Iceland is a point I didn't consider.

You're focused on the US Oversword. But if you're consider the pill to be a driver of something we'd have to look at it across the globe.

At nations who use birth control like the US and those where people can barely access birth control.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_birth_control

The UK is another good example of places that have birth control (since 1974) and haven't seen a decline in "family values."  Or violence (compared to the US).  U.K. Crime Rate & Statistics 1990-2023 | MacroTrends

The rate is dropping but not as dramatically as the US... there wasn't as high a rate in the UK in the first place.

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

We seem to have our wires crossed.  I think there were condoms even back then.

For the record, condoms have been available since the 1400's. Condom - Wikipedia

[Tatetopa]

52 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

For the record, condoms have been available since the 1400's. Condom - Wikipedia

Well shucks, I guess my dad didn't invent them then, But hold on, there were no gas stations or bowling alleys back in 1400's  where did  the dudes about to meet a lady on a romantic tryst get them, sheep intestines?

[SHaYap]

I keep hearing Janis pleading all the way I read through the thread... 

Quote

...You got a woman waitin' for you there

All you ever gotta do is be a good man one time to one woman

And that'll be the end of the road, babe

I know you got more tears to share, babe

So come on, come on

Come on, come on, come on

And cry, cry baby

Cry baby

Cry...

 

[00.03:58]

~

[XenoFish]

8 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

It takes more than free sex to keep people together.

I've always felt that I had the wrong idea, but the successful relationships always seem to have a strong friendship between the two. Because at some point in a relationship sex ends. Old age, health issues, even medical treatments can end that fire. But the embers of friendship can last a life time. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

18 hours ago, OverSword said:

Mind you I have never advocated for removing birth control. 

Agreed, but curious as to why not?  If birth control is responsible for the society instability and decline that you see then what is the alternative?  I guess more importantly, is it that you think removing birth control would cause even greater problems or that the 'good' from the additional liberty and freedom women have from it outweighs those bad effects?  I understand that at its core you are simply making the observation that birth control may have led to a greater number of single parents and all the risks that go along with that, although you have also made comments implying that this was significantly bad for society overall.  I guess I just think that 'birth control has led to societal decline' is quite a bit different from 'birth control has led to societal decline, but all the alternatives to having birth control are much worse', and without knowing that there are any better alternatives than I think the latter is our situation.

18 hours ago, OverSword said:

By the way I own a couple of fedoras

Ha, yea it's not really fair to the hat that incels gave it a bad name.  Even if some don't think they're cool you're still in good shape, the coolness of electric guitars more than makes up for it. 

[+OverSword]

13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

It takes more than free sex to keep people together.

Financial ties after the glow wears off 

[+OverSword]

2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Agreed, but curious as to why not?  If birth control is responsible for the society instability and decline that you see then what is the alternative?  I guess more importantly, is it that you think removing birth control would cause even greater problems or that the 'good' from the additional liberty and freedom women have from it outweighs those bad effects?  I understand that at its core you are simply making the observation that birth control may have led to a greater number of single parents and all the risks that go along with that, although you have also made comments implying that this was significantly bad for society overall.  I guess I just think that 'birth control has led to societal decline' is quite a bit different from 'birth control has led to societal decline, but all the alternatives to having birth control are much worse', and without knowing that there are any better alternatives than I think the latter is our situation.

Ha, yea it's not really fair to the hat that incels gave it a bad name.  Even if some don't think they're cool you're still in good shape, the coolness of electric guitars more than makes up for it. 

Because first and foremost I am for liberty and the rights of individuals over everything else, it's a thing, people use it safely and willingly.  I'm also for the right to have an abortion although I think abortion is a tragic thing.

After reading about how arranged marriages work for certain classes of some cultures those where you have multiple generations under one roof and an older female family member moves in along with the bride may be superior to our system but most people see that as a form of slavery and a violation of the rights of women.  But from what I understand the couples involved in such pairings report good long term satisfaction.

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by OverSword

[Kenemet]

14 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Well shucks, I guess my dad didn't invent them then, But hold on, there were no gas stations or bowling alleys back in 1400's  where did  the dudes about to meet a lady on a romantic tryst get them, sheep intestines?

Well, there WERE a lot of sheep wandering around at that time....

I think they had one made and ... they weren't disposable.  There's some made out of horn (no puns, now.  Y'all just stop that.  I see you there!) and I think I remember some being made out of linen (though I'm not sure from what era.

 

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, OverSword said:

After reading about how arranged marriages work for certain classes of some cultures those where you have multiple generations under one roof and an older female family member moves in along with the bride may be superior to our system but most people see that as a form of slavery and a violation of the rights of women.  But from what I understand the couples involved in such pairings report good long term satisfaction.

Erm... no.  

If you like liberty, then you'd hate the idea of these marriages and this lifestyle.  Divorce was strictly forbidden and the woman who divorced was socially outcast as a result.  The benefit was all on the man's side; the woman's position was basically the same as that of an oversized child with limited legal protection, no ability to refuse sex (unless her husband was kind), no control over what the children could do with their lives, etc.  Men could and did have mistresses on the side and society turned a blind eye toward this.  

So, for a woman, you went from being under your father's control to under your husband's.  If he stayed away from home you could have some measure of control over your life and you might be happier than when you were a child.  I don't doubt that affection developed over time with many of these, but the price is that one person loses complete control of their own lives.

Now, the man's side of the equation is full of positives.  You have access to sex, someone runs your household for you, does the cleaning, washes your clothes, cooks meals, shops, takes care of any kids, and gets to do the tasks you don't like to do.  The man brings in some of the money (women and children also worked, particularly among the lower classes.)  The man owns things like land that the couple may have bought with their money.

While there *can* be many advantages in a multigenerational household (my great aunt living with us when I was a child enabled my mother to attend some classes and have a bit of a social life -- which wouldn't have been possible without a maid or governess or other help) and I think it's not entirely a horrible idea, most people want personal freedom even in very trivial areas of their lives (like what to have for dinner.)

All forms of "living with other people" require some adjustments and compromises.  And there's actually no such thing as as a "traditional marriage."

[Kenemet]

22 hours ago, OverSword said:

I can certainly tell you who I would have been less happy with had he stayed at home 

There's an odd disjoint here that I should mention... among many men who believe in traditional marriage there's a belief that somehow women are "fulfilled" by being housekeepers and cooks and mothers; as though we're somehow not quite human enough and we are by nature and genetics "programmed" to basically be servants.

It ain't fun.  Most of us loathe housework (at the minimum, loathe some specific part of it like doing laundry.)  Social pressures can work a number on you... I feel guilty when my husband makes dinner, even though I realize that for the past 50 years the number of times he's made dinner for us is rather less than 200 times and I should enjoy the gift of a meal that I didn't have to prep, cook, and wash up after.

We're human.  If you, as a man, wouldn't enjoy a lifetime of doing that particular chore, the odds are very strong that a woman won't find it fulfilling, either.

[+OverSword]

55 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

There's an odd disjoint here that I should mention... among many men who believe in traditional marriage there's a belief that somehow women are "fulfilled" by being housekeepers and cooks and mothers; as though we're somehow not quite human enough and we are by nature and genetics "programmed" to basically be servants.

It ain't fun.  Most of us loathe housework (at the minimum, loathe some specific part of it like doing laundry.)  Social pressures can work a number on you... I feel guilty when my husband makes dinner, even though I realize that for the past 50 years the number of times he's made dinner for us is rather less than 200 times and I should enjoy the gift of a meal that I didn't have to prep, cook, and wash up after.

We're human.  If you, as a man, wouldn't enjoy a lifetime of doing that particular chore, the odds are very strong that a woman won't find it fulfilling, either.

Yeah, and men unanimously love their jobs and coworkers   Did you read what I said?  I know which parent I would prefer at home when I was a kid.

Edited September 29, 2023 by OverSword

[tcgram]

9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I've always felt that I had the wrong idea, but the successful relationships always seem to have a strong friendship between the two. Because at some point in a relationship sex ends. Old age, health issues, even medical treatments can end that fire. But the embers of friendship can last a life time. 

I do believe that a strong friendship helps.   I knew my late husband for 7 years before we got romantically involved.   He was my best friend and I could talk to him about anything and vice versa.   We not only loved each other but LIKED each other and wanted to hang out together.  We shared responsibilities with the kids and the home.   If someone couldn't do something, the other one jumped in and helped.  

 

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, OverSword said:

Yeah, and men unanimously love their jobs and coworkers   Did you read what I said?  I know which parent I would prefer at home when I was a kid.

It was actually hard to tell which parent you'd have preferred at home when you were a kid.

Jobs and coworkers... are often preferable to endless dishes to wash and laundry to wash and fold and put away.  At least you can change jobs and have a hope for something else to do (even if it's not much fun.)  Laundry and dishes and vacuuming and so forth are (sigh) endless.

Anyway, back to topic, I think that poverty and lack of education and lack of opportunities and social restrictions -- and media are more to blame for disrupted households.  We've got kind of a holdover pressure to "marry and have a nice family" in our society, which can lead to trying to form a permanent relationship (marriage) with someone you're not really compatible with.  Add to that the "rock star" element of media personalities (Tik-Tok, Youtube) where all you have to do is show up (so the idea goes) and make videos and everyone will throw money at you and the glorification of violence (I can't tell you how often I've seen posters/art/etc of someone pointing a gun at the viewer (not to mention cop shows with a very high body count.)) and you've got a recipe for a society that's not going to be very supportive of many groups.

Birth control at least gives women a chance to say "no, not another baby."  We're the ones carrying the child inside us, we have all the stress of the birth process, nursing, and so forth - and it's hard on a woman's health.  It wasn't until fairly recently (1900 or so) that women had a life expectancy equal or better to men.  Having baby after baby ties you down and makes it impossible for you to work or do much of anything other than household work and child care (and it certainly doesn't educate you.)

If we look globally, we can see that there are many types of families.  What seems to disrupt society most is theocratic rule (the Gulf States are doing well, but their social policies are horrible) - without oil as a carrot to lure the world market, theocracies seem to mostly hand their constituents harsh poverty and a lot of executions for social offenses and a rule that benefits the highest powers but no one else.

I think it's worthwhile to look at the happiest countries (where families are also doing well) and find out what their policies are: World Happiness Report: The world's happiest countries for 2023 | CNN

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, tcgram said:

I do believe that a strong friendship helps.   I knew my late husband for 7 years before we got romantically involved.   He was my best friend and I could talk to him about anything and vice versa.   We not only loved each other but LIKED each other and wanted to hang out together.  We shared responsibilities with the kids and the home.   If someone couldn't do something, the other one jumped in and helped.  

 

Same with me and my husband!

[White on White]

On 9/16/2023 at 1:40 AM, Occupational Hubris said:

Jesus christ. The entire things reads that women shouldn't enjoy sex and so only have sex in marriage for birth. Same absolute hot conservative garbage that women have no agency and their only utility is childbirth

'Because women in truth exist entirely for the propagation of the race, and their destiny ends here, they live more for the species than for the individual, and in their hearts take the affairs of the species more seriously than those of the individual.'  On Women. by Arthur Schopenhauer 

 

[spartan max2]

2 hours ago, White on White said:

'Because women in truth exist entirely for the propagation of the race, and their destiny ends here, they live more for the species than for the individual, and in their hearts take the affairs of the species more seriously than those of the individual.'  On Women. by Arthur Schopenhauer 

 

Because a man from the 1800s is an expert on women lol

[Occupational Hubris]

5 hours ago, White on White said:

'Because women in truth exist entirely for the propagation of the race, and their destiny ends here, they live more for the species than for the individual, and in their hearts take the affairs of the species more seriously than those of the individual.'  On Women. by Arthur Schopenhauer 

 

No surprise that good ol' Arthur attacked his female neighbor and was trying to date a 17 year old when he was 39. Real peach, that one.