Shaken Atheism: A Look at the Fine-Tuned Universe

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

On 9/20/2023 at 1:20 PM, joc said:

 That's the only reason she is here.

Which is ironic, as Paul (or Paul’s Secretary) is SCATHING of woman preaching, to the point of vitrolically decrying it as an abomination. 

[+joc]

1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Which is ironic, as Paul (or Paul’s Secretary) is SCATHING of woman preaching, to the point of vitrolically decrying it as an abomination. 

Which is possibly why there is no identification of gender. 

I identify the Preacher as female...who knows?  Not really important...But...and this is important...anyone who knows a lot of what the Bible says can take bits and pieces and make it say anything you want it to.  

For instance:  God wrote the Ten Commandments on a piece of rock with his finger.   One of them is thou shall have no other Gods before me.  But ...now they worship Jesus as God...a man...as God.  Not just as a prophet but as actually God himself in flesh.  (btw  this isn't a new thing either...it's an old Eastern Religious concept of a man or woman achieving God status, through enlightenment or whatever.  Also the Ten Commandments says not to make a graven image and worship it...segue to:  any Catholic worshipping the statue of Jesus or Mary or a crack in the wall that looks like Mary, etc.  And they have a way to quote scripture that actually allows the ten commandments to be meaningless.

So overcoming the words of the Murderer Paul is easy.  Just leave some of them out.

Edited September 21, 2023 by joc

[+Sherapy]

11 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

This is what happens when one relegates good and evil to being no more than 'concepts.' Good and evil are much more than 'concepts.' They are a reality. If they were mere 'concepts,' then maybe you would have a good argument. Someone taking a gun and shooting you because they want your money - this act is evil, wrong. Nothing subjective about that. Nothing ideological or theoretical about it either. Just a fact. Plain and simple. Do not think that because good and evil are words, that they have no real meaning or definite place in reality. These words are used to describe that which is real and objective. The better thought or question I would say is, what is considered good and what is considered evil in our world? Are those things truly good/evil? What makes them good or evil? 

Science is evil? I have no problem with truth. Only lies. The study of the natural world is sensible and wise, the way God intended - but the godless atheistic explanations attached to natural phenomenon is only lies. I am not speaking about people. I am speaking about those ideologies. 

When discussing science, it is crucial to rely on evidence and factual information to challenge or present alternative viewpoints. Science is based on the principles of evidence, observation, and experimentation. Therefore, to effectively dispute scientific claims or theories, it is essential to provide compelling evidence or logical reasoning to support your arguments.

By engaging in evidence-based discussions and presenting well-supported counter-arguments, it allows for a constructive dialogue that promotes the pursuit of truth and a better understanding of the natural world. Scientific consensus is not static; it evolves over time as new evidence emerges and hypotheses are refined or replaced. So, if someone wishes to challenge scientific explanations, they need to provide valid evidence and logical reasoning to support their claims.

“I have no problem with truth. Only lies. The study of the natural world is sensible and wise, the way God intended - but the godless atheistic explanations attached to natural phenomenon is only lies. I am not speaking about people. I am speaking about those ideologies.” Read

Your quote is an example of a counter that does not use factual or logical thinking:
You have basically stated that you do not believe in Science without providing any evidence or logical reasoning to support this stance, going as far as to state it is all lies. You are relying on personal beliefs, intuition, and your emotional perspective to reject the concept, not any facts.

In this case, your argument lacks support and does not contribute to a productive scientific discourse. It is essential to base scientific disputes on evidence, logical thinking, and a thorough understanding of the subject matter in order to have meaningful discussions that advance our understanding.

 

 

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, joc said:

One of them is thou shall have no other Gods before me.

This also implies that there are other gods. The one that's being worshipped might not be The God/Creator.

[Antigonos]

3 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Which is ironic, as Paul (or Paul’s Secretary) is SCATHING of woman preaching, to the point of vitrolically decrying it as an abomination. 

Checkmate. 

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

This also implies that there are other gods. The one that's being worshipped might not be The God/Creator.

Deuteronomy does that as well. 

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 from the Dead Sea Scrolls shows: 

 

Quote

 

4QDeut^j

"When Elyon gave the nations as an inheritance, when he separated the sons of man, he set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God (bny 'l[hym]). For Yahweh's portion was his people; Jacob was the lot of his inheritance".

Elyon, a variant of El, and Yahweh are most definitely separate Yahweh being a “son of God/(bny 'l[hym])“. 
 

cormac

[+Hammerclaw]

Polynesians found every little island that dotted the South Pacific, so there's no way they could have missed South America.

[+Hammerclaw]

16 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

I'm pretty skeptical myself and would probably not have a firm belief in God if He had not connected with me on a personal level.  

This confesses that you are here to preach, that you think you have been touched by the divine. You may be touched, but I don't believe it is by God. Keep your heresy to yourself.

[+DieChecker]

7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

This also implies that there are other gods. The one that's being worshipped might not be The God/Creator.

True. Otherwise it would say, "There are no other gods than your God.". Which it doesn't...

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

This also implies that there are other gods. The one that's being worshipped might not be The God/Creator.

There is some interesting discussions of the rationale behind that statement, firstly - it’s massively monotheistic and (within the Biblical narrative (which we call “world of the text”)) given the Hebrew have just come a polytheistic society probably important. Beyond that, it’s very politically canny (“world behind the text”) because the new Hebrew nation is looking to set itself up and importing ideas from other nations (like gods) is a short route to becoming vassalised or assimilated by that nation (that is also the reason behind the mixed fibres prohibition, don’t trade with others and end up “impure” (ie assimilated)). 
Thirdly it’s a control mechanism - you as farmer Joab have no god except God, and God’s human authority comes through the priests (a select blood line) therefore you MUST obey the priests, you can’t toddle off and worship Ba’al or whomsoever because the priesthood is full of ****s, you MUST obey them and just them. 

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

There is some interesting discussions of the rationale behind that statement, firstly - it’s massively monotheistic and (within the Biblical narrative (which we call “world of the text”)) given the Hebrew have just come a polytheistic society probably important. Beyond that, it’s very politically canny (“world behind the text”) because the new Hebrew nation is looking to set itself up and importing ideas from other nations (like gods) is a short route to becoming vassalised or assimilated by that nation (that is also the reason behind the mixed fibres prohibition, don’t trade with others and end up “impure” (ie assimilated)). 
Thirdly it’s a control mechanism - you as farmer Joab have no god except God, and God’s human authority comes through the priests (a select blood line) therefore you MUST obey the priests, you can’t toddle off and worship Ba’al or whomsoever because the priesthood is full of ****s, you MUST obey them and just them. 

It's a power dynamic. Nothing more. In some ways I consider certain religion to be proto-governments. 

[XenoFish]

In the case of the OP it is (though very familiar) an attack on non-belief and basically anti-science. A highly restricted religious view of reality. Where Group A is superior to Group B, C, D, E, and F, etc. Nothing new about that. 

I don't know. I could rip all this stuff to shreads. 6 maybe 7 years ago, definitely 8 years ago, I'd have this thread locked by page 10. Now, all of this is a linguistic hell. A social prison. Ideological jail, perhaps.....

That's been kinda my problem as of late, I know all of this religious and spiritual stuff is just make-believe. A game of pretend that people take way too serious. 

[+Hammerclaw]

For truly religious people, people born and raised within a community, a cultural complex where belief is taught or indoctrinated from birth, there's nothing "make-believe" about it. They really do believe and the collective beliefs of the community means they live within their own distinct reality created by their religious worldview. Devoid of science or confirmational historicity, it is all predicated on Faith which can't be shaken. No matter how any of them might wish to be purely secular or atheist, the effects of the indoctrination with doctrinal truisms can never be entirely shaken off. Nicene denominations, beginning with the Roman Catholic Church from which all of Protestantism sprang, all of which adhere to certain principal core tenets, composes the largest block. Other splinter groups that arose afterwards created their own unique and controversial tenets not accepted by mainstream, Nicene Christianity, SDAs being one such group. It's hard to shake the Faith of people who have already accepted the secularly impossible as reality. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

14 hours ago, Saru said:

Thread cleaned

Enough with the derogatory personal remarks please folks.

@ReadTheGreatControversyEGW - you asked me a couple of days ago how your posts constituted 'preaching' - I would say that 3 consecutive posts containing nothing but copied+pasted scripture more than fits the bill, please avoid doing this.

Thank you.

Hello Saru. Posts with nothing but copy and pasted scripture? Could you forward those to me? Because if I add a Bible verse it is related to the content being discussed. My views are related to the bible, I make that very clear. I do not hide it. This forum allows for discussions of a spiritual or religious nature. Several of my topics have been often related to Biblical creationism and its opposing party - atheistic evolution. The Bible is the scriptures of Christianity. Quoting it in reference to a topic here is not preaching in and of itself.    

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

16 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Thread cleaned

Enough with the derogatory personal remarks please folks.

@ReadTheGreatControversyEGW - you asked me a couple of days ago how your posts constituted 'preaching' - I would say that 3 consecutive posts containing nothing but copied+pasted scripture more than fits the bill, please avoid doing this.

Thank you.

I am not the only one who have quoted the bible in these threads either. I just quote it more than others in general, because well, I am a fan of the Bible. And my views do not attack it and try to tear it down when I quote it. Can't say the same tho for the others who quote it. Seems I am not believed when I say I don't care to preach to people here. I don't like the concept of preaching to people either. I don't operate with people on that level.  

Edited September 22, 2023 by ReadTheGreatControversyEGW

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

21 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

I'm pretty skeptical myself and would probably not have a firm belief in God if He had not connected with me on a personal level.  

This confesses that you are here to preach, that you think you have been touched by the divine. You may be touched, but I don't believe it is by God. Keep your heresy to yourself.

You're entitled to your views. And you know what? I am too. If I am then preaching, so are you. 

[cormac mac airt]

8 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

I am not the only one who have quoted the bible in these threads either. I just quote it more than others in general, because well, I'm a fan of the Bible. 

Using the Bible to validate the Bible is just as meaningless as using J.K. Rowling’s books to validate the existence of Hogwarts. And YES, doing the former IS preaching. 

cormac

[eight bits]

7 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

You're entitled to your views. And you know what? I am too. If I am then preaching, so are you. 

 

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

I'm beginning to believe more and more that this "you're preaching" thing is deeper than it appears. A strawman argument? Perhaps something else, something deeper for some? Mhmm 

[XenoFish]

To urge acceptance or abandonment of an idea or course of action

specifically : to exhort in an officious or tiresome manner

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preach

[+Hammerclaw]

preaching

[ˈprēCHiNG]

 

NOUN

1. the delivery of a sermon or religious address to an assembled group of people, typically in church:

   "large numbers of people would come to hear his preaching" · "the preachings of church leaders"

   SIMILAR:

   instruction

   message

   sermons

   sermonizing

   homilies

   • the giving of moral advice in a pompously self-righteous way:
   • "your preaching won't make me change my mind."
   •  

[+Hammerclaw]

You are preaching the tenets of SDA, your belief in its tenets, rudely insulting and dismissing factual arguments refuting those tenets by those who believe to the contrary. Your whole worldview is religious, and you scorn any facts not consistent with it, displaying abysmal ignorance. 

[Antigonos]

1 hour ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

I am not the only one who have quoted the bible in these threads either. I just quote it more than others in general, because well, I am a fan of the Bible. And my views do not attack it and try to tear it down when I quote it. Can't say the same tho for the others who quote it. Seems I am not believed when I say I don't care to preach to people here. I don't like the concept of preaching to people either. I don't operate with people on that level.  

Good idea. Argue with the moderator.

[+Sherapy]

53 minutes ago, eight bits said:

 

I see a short stay for this one. 

[+Sherapy]

25 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

You are preaching the tenets of SDA, your belief in its tenets, rudely insulting and dismissing factual arguments refuting those tenets by those who believe to the contrary. Your whole worldview is religious, and you scorn any facts not consistent with it, displaying abysmal ignorance. 

Indeed, this is deja vu will due 2.0. IMHO