Shaken Atheism: A Look at the Fine-Tuned Universe

[XenoFish]

A smart Christian could look at science not as an enemy, but as the art of understanding the works of God. 

Just a thought.

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Out of chaos does not come order. Not without the aide and intervention of intelligence. Order does not come about by itself, that is impossible. Simply out of the question. Everything orderly came about by the power of an intelligent mind. Take all the parts of a car or a cell phone and drop them before you. It doesn't matter how many years go by. They will never assemble into a car or a cell phone. All the laws of nature and physics came about by the power of an intelligent mind. Also, not by some horribly creepy looking insect humanoid thing or a weak immoral mind. But by a good and great, powerful and majestic Being.    

Nice fiction but the Writer’s and Artist’s Forum are lower in UM. 
 

cormac

[Piney]

43 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

A smart Christian could look at science not as an enemy, but as the art of understanding the works of God. 

Just a thought.

Mainstream ones do. Orthodox Quakers, Episcopalians, mainline Methodists and Presbyterians are fully on par with evolution and astrophysics. 

It's just most Fundy screwballs that are anti-science.

I do give the ICOC credit for one thing though. They accept evolution and modern astrophysics even if they have a "Jonestown" structure. 

Edited September 17 by Piney
The End Times is for hopeless losers

[Piney]

18 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Hey beautiful people... so the article says, 

Someone in the comments said something about different stars having different elements. 

An article on NASA's website states the following - 

"Stars are giant balls of hot gas – mostly hydrogen, with some helium and small amounts of other elements."  

https://universe.nasa.gov/stars/basics/

How can a huge explosion create something so specific? It would take the power of a superintellect to control and bring about the right conditions. 

Address me directly coward.

Stars have a higher or lower metalicity depending if they are type I, ll, or III stars. III stars were the first and were pure hydrogen and helium. IIs were created out of the gas from the novas of IIIs. Is were created out of the novas of IIs. Gold and platinum are only created during binary novas. It's physics, not a god and your cherry picking the article. 

 

[Rlyeh]

2 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Out of chaos does not come order.

And yet it happens all the time.

 

2 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Not without the aide and intervention of intelligence. Order does not come about by itself, that is impossible. Simply out of the question. Everything orderly came about by the power of an intelligent mind.

So we can rule out the incompetent slave master of the Bible?

 

2 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Take all the parts of a car or a cell phone and drop them before you.

Humans made them, idiot.

[+razman]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Read, many natural phenomena exhibit self-organization without any external intelligent intervention. For example, in physical systems like crystallization and flocking behavior in birds, patterns and order emerge spontaneously through simple interactions between the entities involved.

The theory of evolution proposes that complex life forms have evolved through gradual changes over millions of years, driven by natural selection. No intelligence is required for this process. Evolutionary mechanisms explain the diversity and complexity of life on Earth without invoking an intelligent designer.

In physics, emergent properties arise as collective behavior from the interactions of many simple units. For instance, the behavior of a large crowd or traffic flow emerges from the actions of individual people or vehicles, respectively. No intelligence guiding each individual is necessary for these patterns to emerge.

The laws governing the behavior of the universe, such as gravity and electromagnetism, have been observed to operate consistently and predictably. While we don't fully understand the origin of these laws, they do not necessarily require an intelligent mind for their existence.

These above examples highlight instances where order arises naturally without the direct intervention of intelligence. While intelligence can certainly contribute to organizing and manipulating systems, it is not the sole driver of all order in the universe.

 

Yea , i would say in this case , it's hard to compare a pile of cell phone or car parts to order from chaos. I mean , the universe didn't directly create the cell phone or car parts, though apparently it created us , but we then made the pile of cell phone or car parts.

[+Sherapy]

16 minutes ago, razman said:

Yea , i would say in this case , it's hard to compare a pile of cell phone or car parts to order from chaos. I mean , the universe didn't directly create the cell phone or car parts, though apparently it created us , but we then made the pile of cell phone or car parts.

Staying on track, In the context of emergent properties, it is possible to use the concept of intelligence to explain or understand how complex behavior or order can arise, but that doesn't necessarily mean that intelligence is a prerequisite for the existence of those emergent properties.

When one examines emergent properties, we are often looking at the collective behavior of many simpler components interacting with each other. The interactions and feedback among these components can lead to the emergence of complex patterns, structures, or behaviors. While intelligence can help us comprehend or analyze these emergent properties, it doesn't mean that intelligence is necessary for them to exist or arise.

 

 

[Piney]

38 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

When one examines emergent properties, we are often looking at the collective behavior of many simpler components interacting with each other. The interactions and feedback among these components can lead to the emergence of complex patterns, structures, or behaviors. While intelligence can help us comprehend or analyze these emergent properties, it doesn't mean that intelligence is necessary for them to exist or arise.

Which is exactly how convergent evolution works when filling a niche in a ecological system. 

[XenoFish]

I think one of the issues is applying humanesque attribute to the cosmos. We want order so we project order onto the universe, same with intelligence. I think it comes down to wanting it all to make sense. Also the feeling of control.

[cormac mac airt]

27 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I think one of the issues is applying humanesque attribute to the cosmos. We want order so we project order onto the universe, same with intelligence. I think it comes down to wanting it all to make sense. Also the feeling of control.

It’s pretty much another pretense at comprehending the incomprehensible which never works. 
 

cormac

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Staying on track, In the context of emergent properties, it is possible to use the concept of intelligence to explain or understand how complex behavior or order can arise, but that doesn't necessarily mean that intelligence is a prerequisite for the existence of those emergent properties.

When one examines emergent properties, we are often looking at the collective behavior of many simpler components interacting with each other. The interactions and feedback among these components can lead to the emergence of complex patterns, structures, or behaviors. While intelligence can help us comprehend or analyze these emergent properties, it doesn't mean that intelligence is necessary for them to exist or arise.

 

 

Yes, we should discard the notion that we are mere observers, separate and distinct from the Universe. We are, in fact, a part of the Universe come alive and aware of itself, asking the ubiquitous, uniquely human question "why" about everything.

Edited September 17 by Hammerclaw

[Crazy Horse]

6 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

Apparently it is.

Well, in a slightly twisted and contorted way, you are quite right.

Because things have become so corrupt, so selfish, arrogant and self important, that more an more normies are no longer able to simple stick their heads into the sand. Not when your future is hanging by a thread.

So in a round about way, these psychotic levels of selfishness shall actually help, (some of us) to transition into a New Age.

A New Age sans ego.

 

[Crazy Horse]

13 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, we should discard the notion that we are mere observers, separate and distinct from the Universe. We are, in fact, a part of the Universe come alive and aware of itself, asking the ubiquitous, uniquely human question "why" about everything.

And yet it is only when one stops this incessant questioning, (and thinking) that one may feel, and know, the truth.

"Be still, and know that I am GOD.."

[+Hammerclaw]

2 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

And yet it is only when one stops this incessant questioning, (and thinking) that one may feel, and know, the truth.

"Be still, and know that I am GOD.."

Now you're talking stupid, a-gain. If God didn't want us to think, we'd still be making doody in the treetops.

[Crazy Horse]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Now you're talking stupid, a-gain. If God didn't want us to think, we'd still be making doody in the treetops.

I will have to try that sometime, it sounds like fun!

[+Hammerclaw]

4 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I will have to try that sometime, it sounds like fun!

On you it looks good.

Edited September 17 by Hammerclaw

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

I think one of the issues is applying humanesque attribute to the cosmos. We want order so we project order onto the universe, same with intelligence. I think it comes down to wanting it all to make sense. Also the feeling of control.

Good points, X, 

When faced with the vastness and complexity of the cosmos, humans may find it overwhelming or incomprehensible. So, to alleviate or quell this cognitive dissonance, we ( in a general sense) tend to project our own need for order onto the universe. We look for patterns, symmetries, and regularities that make it easier for us to navigate and understand the cosmos. 

Additionally, humans have an inherent desire for control and predictability. We feel more at ease when we believe we have a certain level of influence over our environment. By perceiving the universe as having a deliberate order or intelligence, we gain a sense of reassurance that things are not chaotic. It provides one with a semblance of control over our surroundings, even if that control is simply a perceived one.

I think a hard thing to wrap one’s head around is that this inclination to anthropomorphize the cosmos or deities  does not necessarily mean the ideas reflect actual characteristics of the universe/deities itself. It is a projection of ones own human desires and cognitive biases. The universe can operate based on physical laws without any intention, purpose, or intelligence behind it. Understanding this distinction is tough for some. Being okay with “I don’t know” is not easy for some. 

 

Edited September 17 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

7 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

And yet it is only when one stops this incessant questioning, (and thinking) that one may feel, and know, the truth.

"Be still, and know that I am GOD.."

 

8 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

And yet it is only when one stops this incessant questioning, (and thinking) that one may feel, and know, the truth.

"Be still, and know that I am GOD.."

Sounds a lot preachy CH. Just a heads up. 

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Good points, X, 

When faced with the vastness and complexity of the cosmos, humans may find it overwhelming or incomprehensible. So, to alleviate or quell this cognitive dissonance, we ( in a general sense) tend to project our own need for order onto the universe. We look for patterns, symmetries, and regularities that make it easier for us to navigate and understand the cosmos. 

Additionally, humans have an inherent desire for control and predictability. We feel more at ease when we believe we have a certain level of influence over our environment. By perceiving the universe as having a deliberate order or intelligence, we gain a sense of reassurance that things are not chaotic. It provides one with a semblance of control over their surroundings, even if that control is simply a perceived one.

I think a hard thing to wrap one’s head around is that this inclination to anthropomorphize the cosmos or deities  does not necessarily reflect actual characteristics of the universe/deities itself. It is a projection of our own human desires and cognitive biases. The universe can operate based on physical laws without any intention, purpose, or intelligence behind it. Understanding this distinction is tough for some. Being okay with “I don’t know” is not easy for some. 

 

Which essentially becomes pareidolia run amuck. 
 

cormac

[+Sherapy]

2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Which essentially becomes pareidolia run amuck. 
 

cormac

Excellent add to. 

Edited September 17 by Sherapy

[cormac mac airt]

We as a species are essentially hard-wired in our brains to see patterns in things regardless of whether or not they actually exist. 
 

cormac

[+Sherapy]

5 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

We as a species are essentially hard-wired in our brains to see patterns in things regardless of whether or not they actually exist. 
 

cormac

Exactly, hence the reason one learns critical thinking. This is becoming an essential skill a skill that some have not learned or don’t think they need to learn.

Edited September 17 by Sherapy

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Exactly, hence the reason one learns critical thinking. This is becoming an essential skill a skill that some have not learned. 

Sadly some just don’t care, pretending that their interpretation of reality is the one and only correct one. It never was nor will be. 
 

cormac

[+Sherapy]

4 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Sadly some just don’t care, pretending that their interpretation of reality is the one and only correct one. It never was nor will be. 
 

cormac

Indeed, and UM is a wonderful resource to use to practice on being a better overall critical thinker too. 

Edited September 17 by Sherapy

[Crazy Horse]

25 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 

Sounds a lot preachy CH. Just a heads up. 

Not preaching, just relaying some personal experiences, which as far as I know, isn't against forum rules.

Just a little heads-up.