Shaken Atheism: A Look at the Fine-Tuned Universe

[+joc]

14 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

This really bothers me..this lie we have been told. I am not looking at just one thing. But the whole picture. The world is so well designed and organized. It's not just life existing, but existing in style. Beauty and symmetry, perfect organization and variety. All designed to attend to our needs and happiness. The sun, and air and water and the ground we need for stability and sustenance. How plants and trees give off oxygen for life. They could have looked deformed and strange but no, they are beautiful. Delightful.   

 Kind of depends on where you are looking.  If it was all designed to attend to our needs and happiness...then why is there so much unhappiness and starving people in the world?  You seem to have a 'whole picture' that doesn't really fit into the reality of Planet Earth.  Go to Libya and ask the people there if the water that has killed over 5000 is meeting their need for stability and sustenance.  Ask the people of Maui how they liked that perfectly designed fire storm.  Take a walk through the streets of Portland or San Francisco and point out to the homeless people the perfect organization and variety of their existence.  

The whole picture?  Your picture is not the whole picture.  It's the picture you have drawn for yourself.  The trees are beautiful...until a Tiger steps out and eats you.  

And what of the dinosaurs?  How do you explain the dinosaurs in this beautiful paradise designed for our needs and happiness?  Why did the Majestic Being that always was wait approximately 4 billion years to create human beings?  Or is this False Science? And if it is...what about the dinosaurs?

[XenoFish]

25 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

All designed to attend to our needs and happiness.

Sun burn, colds and flu's. Not to mention lethal insects and poisonous animals. Toxic plants as well. 

What kind of delusion are you living in? Happiness is a very fleeting emotion. 

Are you one of those weird bliss bunny's? 

[Antigonos]

5 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Where there is a Law - there is a Lawgiver.   

Where there is clay… there is the potter.

[cormac mac airt]

11 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Where there is a Law - there is a Lawgiver.   

No, it doesn’t work that way. The established physics based laws only became so as we started to understand what is or was going on. They are solely a human creation/definition and the universe is NOT limited to our understanding, it simply doesn’t care nor does it need to. And they are not necessarily immutable. The speed of light, understood as currently circa 186,000 mps, would not have had that limitation during cosmic inflation. The Laws of Thermodynamics wouldn’t have been limited either for various reasons at such an early time. You see what you want to see because physics and related fields are apparently beyond your ability or willingness to understand. That leaves you with the easy route, ie. Goddidit! 
 

cormac

[psyche101]

On 9/16/2023 at 12:08 PM, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

 

Hey read 

What's with the provocative titles?

On 9/16/2023 at 12:08 PM, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

"It is impossible that the universe has escaped being manipulated by a superintellect. The facts indicate that the numbers of combinations necessary for life to have happened through random choice is a conclusion beyond belief."  

https://www.religion-online.org/article/shaken-atheism-a-look-at-the-fine-tuned-universe/

*Multiple finely-tuned simultaneous constants make life on earth possible.   

How stupid.

That's a backass backwards. Humans are fine tuned to the earth, not the other way around. 

On 9/16/2023 at 12:08 PM, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Blindfold several individuals and give each a Rubik's Cube. What are the chances of each person coming to the same conclusion at the exact same time? 

Low, and has nothing to do with the question at hand. It's simply whataboutism for the slow minded. 

On 9/16/2023 at 12:08 PM, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

I wish someone would shewth you away. Your old tired ideology is well outdated. 

ID is not science. It's religion wrapped up in a word salad.

[psyche101]

3 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

I did.

I have many arguments against 'science false so called.' But I have no arguments against true and unbiased observations of the natural world and its principles. 

Objections. Not arguments. Your ideology is pitiful at describing the universe.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, joc said:

So, the majestic intelligent being doesn't have a beginning?  

An incomprehensible concept the human mind simply can't wrap itself around. We have no idea what the basis of reality is. Why is there anything? Why did talking monkeys get so damn smart they became aware of and horrified by the nature of their finite existence?

Edited September 18, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[+joc]

24 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

An incomprehensible concept the human mind simply can't wrap itself around. We have no idea what the basis of reality is. Why is there anything? Why did talking monkeys get so smart they became aware of and horrified by the nature of their finite existence?

We think we know that the Big Bang began our Universe...but you are right...we don't know that...in fact...the Big Bang may have just been one Big Bang in an infinite amount of Big Bangs  within our own Universe.  When we start to think along the lines of multiverses and such...what was already mind boggling and incomprehensible...yes...it is beyond our minds to even comprehend.

And...I really don't have a problem with a Majestic Being somewhere in the eons of time being responsible for our universe...the problem I have is the context of that Majestic Being as a religious construct.  For all we really know...that Big Bang  could have been the combustion in a vehicle of unfathomable proportions.  Like, the Saturn Rocket to an ant.

 

[Occupational Hubris]

32 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

An incomprehensible concept the human mind simply can't wrap itself around. We have no idea what the basis of reality is. Why is there anything? Why did talking monkeys get so damn smart they became aware of and horrified by the nature of their finite existence?

Talking apes

[+Hammerclaw]

16 minutes ago, joc said:

We think we know that the Big Bang began our Universe...but you are right...we don't know that...in fact...the Big Bang may have just been one Big Bang in an infinite amount of Big Bangs  within our own Universe.  When we start to think along the lines of multiverses and such...what was already mind boggling and incomprehensible...yes...it is beyond our minds to even comprehend.

And...I really don't have a problem with a Majestic Being somewhere in the eons of time being responsible for our universe...the problem I have is the context of that Majestic Being as a religious construct.  For all we really know...that Big Bang  could have been the combustion in a vehicle of unfathomable proportions.  Like, the Saturn Rocket to an ant.

 

Right now, we are experiencing a paradigm shift in Physics. As with every great shift, those scientists wedded to and joined at the hip to the present physics model construct, will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the future. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[Arbenol]

6 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Right now, we are experiencing a paradigm shift in Physics. As with every great shift, those scientists wedded to and joined at the hip to the present physics model construct, will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the future. 

They often die still wedded to their dogma. Progress one funeral at a time.

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, Arbenol said:

They often die still wedded to their dogma. Progress one funeral at a time.

I majored in anthropology and have watch the Clovis First hypothesis die a slow death the last fifty years for much the same reason.

[Arbenol]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

I majored in anthropology and have watch the Clovis First hypothesis die a slow death the last fifty years for much the same reason.

There's a belief that scientists will always follow the evidence and adjust their world view based on that. But the reality tells a somewhat different story.

Some years ago I read Naomi Oreskes' book on the history of plate tectonics. The reality of this great paradigm change was that for those geologists who favoured a theory of fixed continents, many of them were never persuaded by the evidence. They clung desperately to their old paradigms and often took them to their graves. 

[+Hammerclaw]

36 minutes ago, Arbenol said:

There's a belief that scientists will always follow the evidence and adjust their world view based on that. But the reality tells a somewhat different story.

Some years ago I read Naomi Oreskes' book on the history of plate tectonics. The reality of this great paradigm change was that for those geologists who favoured a theory of fixed continents, many of them were never persuaded by the evidence. They clung desperately to their old paradigms and often took them to their graves. 

Yeah, especially the ones who laughed at and mocked Wegener. It was such a joke for them and their students. Funny how evidence can stare you in the face and you can't see it. Far too many scientists are like an old boy's club, too inflexible and dogmatic in their collective assertions.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[Guyver]

On 9/16/2023 at 7:19 PM, joc said:

Woah...wait...hold up!  No...you don't get to do that!  Wrong!!

You cannot use the quote of Bernard Lovell...because...you cannot use the argument for a Big Bang in your Biblical Fantasy Story.  If you are going to believe in the Myth Creation Story...then by god...believe it! Embrace it! But you do not get to use Scientific Theories for a backdrop of your idiotic arguments against science.  You have no idea what the Big Bang is, and you have no idea where the very stuff that you are made of comes from.  It  comes from dying stars when they go SuperNova.  

Stick to what you know... 7 days...the sun being created on the fourth day.  

We are literally made of star dust.  From the carbon atoms and other elements blown into the Universe as stars die.  

He doesn’t care about science.  He’s shamming.  He’s just looking for an excuse to keep on preaching.  You know SDA believe in special creation, that means, no evolution.  He doesn’t even believe in evolution, how is he going to explain the universe?

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

This really bothers me..this lie we have been told. I am not looking at just one thing. But the whole picture. The world is so well designed and organized. It's not just life existing, but existing in style. Beauty and symmetry, perfect organization and variety. All designed to attend to our needs and happiness. The sun, and air and water and the ground we need for stability and sustenance. How plants and trees give off oxygen for life. They could have looked deformed and strange but no, they are beautiful. Delightful.   

Hi Read

Your picture is just one pixel of the screen of reality. The onus is one you to study what you argue against and your denial of everything you don't understand without actually understanding subjects or attempting to works to your detrimint

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Occupational Hubris said:

Talking apes

Colloquial slang for primates, here. Read up on The Scopes Monkey Trial.

[Occupational Hubris]

4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Colloquial slang for primates, here. Read up on The Scopes Monkey Trial.

I am aware. Just saying, monkeys have no developed language, though they do share culture. Apes were the ones that made the transition to spoke language. Possibly as early as H. erectus, though that is disputed. 

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, Occupational Hubris said:

I am aware. Just saying, monkeys have no developed language, though they do share culture. Apes were the ones that made the transition to spoke language. Possibly as early as H. erectus, though that is disputed. 

We are the talking monkeys, a dysphemism, colloquially speaking.

[Occupational Hubris]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

We are the talking monkeys, a dysphemism, colloquially speaking.

Yes, i understand the reference. 

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Right now, we are experiencing a paradigm shift in Physics. As with every great shift, those scientists wedded to and joined at the hip to the present physics model construct, will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the future. 

What paradigm shift? 

[psyche101]

52 minutes ago, Arbenol said:

They often die still wedded to their dogma. Progress one funeral at a time.

A lot are all very excited at the prospect of change. 

Leaving phlogiston behind for the periodic table was extremely lucrative for the field. It's always been a gift when things are upturned, it just happens every rarely. Science is often expanded but rarely rewritten.

There are some dogs who can't learn new tricks but it's a pretty small contingent. 

[jmccr8]

3 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

 

Hi Read

Haven't seen or heard of any upended atheists around here, how many are shaking in their boots where you live?

Personally I am only interested in credible evidence that anything including god exists and when some is sufficiently presented I will have something to consider so am not an atheist.

Edited September 18, 2023 by jmccr8

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

A lot are all very excited at the prospect of change. 

Leaving phlogiston behind for the periodic table was extremely lucrative for the field. It's always been a gift when things are upturned, it just happens every rarely. Science is often expanded but rarely rewritten.

There are some dogs who can't learn new tricks but it's a pretty small contingent. 

When the old dogs are entrenched in academia, it can take a while, especially when it's theory versus theory. It took half a century before plate tectonics to be widely accepted. Longer than that for Clovis First to be shaken off its pedestal. 

[+Hammerclaw]

21 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

What paradigm shift? 

(PDF) Paradigm Shift for Cosmology and Classical Physics (researchgate.net)