In Search of Noah's Flood

[Doug1066]

For several months I have been looking through historic, archeologic and geologic data seeking to identify Noah's Flood.  The deeper I dig, the more I am convinced that there really was a titanic flood in the Mesopotamian basin, maybe several such floods.  I am finding that nearly all huge floods in the eastern Mediterranean and Middle East are associated with eruptions of Icelandic volcanoes.  This provides a way of finding Noah's Flood:  look up the dates of the various eruptions, then search geologic records to confirm that there were floods in those years.  Unfortunately, not all the eruptive histories are known.  But even unknown volcanoes leave ash layers in ice cores.  We can learn which years eruptions happened, even if we don't know what it was that erupted.

The starting point, of course, is the Bible and the Epic of Gilgamesh.  They seem to have gotten the sequence of events correct and some of the details, even if the dates aren't real trustworthy.  Dates have been supplied in modern times and our dating system doesn't always match up with the king lists.  Even so, dates proposed by archeologists need to be considered.

The Bible calls for "40 days and 40 nights" of rain.  That rules out dam collapse, such as an ice dam or landslide washout.  "40 days and 40 nights" is not your garden-variety thunderstorm, which usually blows over in a few hours to a few days.  This storm lasted over a month.  So what cloud might last a month?  How about a volcanic ash cloud?

The Bible implies that The Flood separated the New Stone Age from the Bronze Age.  The old culture was destroyed and was replaced by a new one.  At Ur, Wooley found a New Stone Age layer (al-Ubaid culture) beneath a massive flood deposit on top of which rested a Bronze Age layer (Erech culture).  It was Wooley's guess that the flood had occurred about 3500 BC (5450 aBP).  In Egypt, a Stone Age layer (Fayoum   underlies a flood deposit which is overlain by the Fayoum A layer (Bronze Age).

In 4260 +/- 20 aBP (2310 BC), Mt. Hekla, the largest volcano in Iceland, erupted with a Volcanic Explosive Index (VEI) probably in the vicinity of 6.0.  It released an ash cloud that spread across Ireland, Britain, Germany and probably most of the Northern Hemisphere.  Lake Accessa in Italy suddenly filled - varve count dates EXACTLY match those of the eruption.  In Egypt, the highest Nile water levels recorded on the Palermo Stone date to 4300 aBP.  This is a written record, therefore, historical.  In northwest China's Tarim Basin, a large lake formed and overflowed its basin.  In northern Oklahoma, Bear Creek went into flood and remained that way long enough to produce a marsh.  I feel quite confident that I can turn up at least one more example of a large flood following this eruption, meaning I have functionally proven that such a flood happened.

The 4300 aBP flood is the largest and almost the oldest flood shown on the Palermo Stone.  Coming forward, the record from the Stone overlaps with other hieroglyphic records.  Together these show that since 4300 aBP there has never been another flood as large as the 4300 aBP flood.  BUT:  4260 aBP is well after the beginning of the Bronze Age.  This is not Noah's Flood.  We must look farther back in time.

The Icelandic Lairg volcano erupted in 5811 +/- 11 aBP (3861 BC).  This is about 400 years before Hekla4 and a better fit for cormac's dates, derived from Gilgamesh.

In 6036 +/- 20 aBP (4086 BC), Hekla 5 erupted.

These last two eruptions approximate dates of two of the three largest floods on the Nile since the Ice Age.

There are four dark bands in the soil at Beer Creek.  The top one dates from 4260.  The bottom one is Younger Dryas.  The third one down dates from the 8200BP Cold Period (c. 8400 aBP).  That leaves the second one from the top undated and the result of an unknown flood.  In addition, there was another flood on the Nile in about 6200 aBP.  So we have evidence of other floods that fit the time period.

NOW:  which of these could be Noah's Flood?
Doug  

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

The first of my concerns is that Torahnically speaking “40” isn’t an exact number (ie, after 39but before 41) but rather a euphemism for ‘a really big number’ like how we say “tonnes” or “loads” or in Watership Down “five” means ‘any number greater than we can easily count using our paws’. 

[Doug1066]

17 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

The first of my concerns is that Torahnically speaking “40” isn’t an exact number (ie, after 39but before 41) but rather a euphemism for ‘a really big number’ like how we say “tonnes” or “loads” or in Watership Down “five” means ‘any number greater than we can easily count using our paws’. 

Not a problem.  "40" is so much larger than the usual size of a rainstorm that it little matters whether the number was 25 or 50 or somewhere in between.  The practical meaning is "one honkin' big storm."

 

There are two "watermarks" near the top of the Hypostyle Hall at Karnak.  Both are well above the level of the 4300BP flood.  Archeologists have speculated that some workman was just doodling.  But what if they're real?  That would be somewhere near the level of "Noah's Flood."  That would also put an upper limit on the age of Noah's Flood:  it occurred after the building of the Hypostyle Hall.

Doug

Edited September 19, 2023 by Doug1066

[Doug1066]

Found a reference to a big flood in the third year of Osarkon III.  It is way too late and way too small to be Noah's Flood, but it is interesting none-the-less.

Doug

[Doug1066]

Going over some Egyptian writings pertaining to floods.  Seems to be a lot of confusion over whether the 4260 BP flood was different from a supposed pre-dynastic flood.  Supposedly, Osiris ascended the throne after "the flood."  Manetho agrees that there was a pre-dynastic flood.  First Dynasty of Kish was enthroned after a flood which occurred during the Third Dynasty of Egypt.  The high-water mark on the Palermo Stone (indicating the 4260 BP flood) occurred in year 30 of the reign of Pharaoh Den of the First Dynasty.  There's either a lot of conflicts in this, or at least four floods.

Doug

[Doug1066]

Found some more dates for Hekla eruptions:

Hekla O:  6060 aBP (4110 BC)

Hekla DH:  6700 aBP (4800 BC)

Hekla 5:  7050 aBP (5100 BC)

Hekla O appears to be too recent to have been the cause of Noah's Flood.  With Hekla DH, the wind was from the wrong direction, blowing the ash plume over the Arctic Ocean and away from Europe and the mid-East.

Hekla 5 is a candidate, but seems to fit with the first Nile super-flood better than Noah's Flood.  I'm thinking all of these are pretty weak.  So it likely wasn't an eruption of Mount Hekla that set the stage for Noah's Flood.

Doug

Edited September 19, 2023 by Doug1066

[Doug1066]

So Hekla4 is the 4260 aBP flood and Hekla5 is the 6036 aBP flood (Need some more evidence to show that a big flood happened at this time, like sediment cores from playa lakes that filled suddenly.).

That leaves a megaflood about 6200 and another about 5800.  That's four.

Kish sits on top of a flood layer.  But how old is it?  The Kish First Dynasty was contemporary with the Egyptian Third Dynasty.  Den was the 8th (?) Pharaoh of the Third Dynasty.  His sed festival, celebrating 30 years on the throne, was wiped out by a titanic flood.  That flood covered Lower Egypt, which was already under stress from rising sea levels.  And that means that the flood layer at Kish dates from the same time as Den's flood - 4260 aBP.

Manetho, the priest/historian, reports that Aha ascended to the throne following the Flood.  Which flood?  14C dating shows that Aha became Pharaoh about 3075 BC (5025 aBP).  Was there a flood about that time?

The Bible suggests, but doesn't actually say, that The Flood occurred at about the beginning of the Bronze Age.  Wooley found a Bronze Age city at Ur, sitting on top of a massive flood layer, sitting on top of a New Stone Age layer.  Wooley guessed the date at 5450 aBP (3500 BC).  His figure is obviously rounded off with an accuracy of +/- 250 years.  Wooley and Manetho are 425 years apart.

The Fayyum A (Stone Age) and Fayyum B (Bronze Age) cultures in Egypt were separated by a flood in the same way that the site at Ur was.  But:  the Bronze Age in Egypt may not be the same as the Bronze Age in Sumeria.  But if it was, then Manetho, Ur and the Fayyum sites may be the same flood (c. 5025 aBP).  Time to look for a flood from about that time.

I have exhausted the list of Hekla eruptions.  There are about a half-dozen other Icelandic volcanic systems, not all of them with eruption histories.  There are also Vesuvius (2X), Stromboli and Thera (2X).  There may be other volcanoes around in North Africa, Spain, Portugal or Italy. 

There are also several tree ring series I can look at, but there are so many grow accelerations that they may not be of much help.

So I have some digging to do yet, but I think thje 5025 aBP date may be pretty close to Noah's Flood.

Doug

[Doug1066]

The plot thickens:

Vesuvius erupted in 4280 +/- 100 aBP, 4350 +/- 70 aBP and 4410 +/- 60 aBP.  Before that there is nothing back to 8780 aBP.

The 4260 aBP ash cloud could have come from Vesuvius.  The dating is right on the edge of possible.  I'll have to find a bunch of lake-level and sediment cores showing sudden changes in water level to sort this out.

At any rate, doesn't seem like Vesuvius could have produced an ash cloud that could explain Noah's Flood.

Doug

[Doug1066]

The history of pre- and First Dynasty Egypt is a mess.  Nobody seems to know what happened when or who succeeded who.  I just found a paper giving radiocarbon dates (expressed in calendar years) that shows Den was Pharaoh for only 17 years.  How is it he had a sed festival?  Those were supposed to be held in the 30th and 60th year of a Pharaoh's reign.  Was he co-ruling with someone and the festival was for the other Pharaoh?

The 14C dates on Den's reign are 2928 to 2911 BC.  That's over 530 years before the 4260 aBP flood.  Are we talking about a different flood?

If Aha became Pharaoh about 3111 BC, then by Manetho, there should have been a flood shortly before that, about 5060 aBP.  And that should match up with Fayyum and Ur.  Something doesn't compute.

Could there have been two floods, one about 5060 and one about 4860 aBP?

 

Checked out Stromboli.  It has been quietly rumbling away for 80,000 years.  No major eruptions, just a steady stream of lava and minor explosions.  A number of flank collapses have created some tsunamis, a ten-footer as recently as 2003.  But it doesn't look like a candidate for creating Noah's Flood.  A tsunami from Stromboli would have no way of reaching the Persian Gulf.

Before the Minoan eruption of Santorini/Thera, which was way too late for Noah's Flood, there was only a single eruption about 1500 years earlier, which would make it a candidate for creating the flood that Manetho mentioned.

 

Only problem with all these potential dates is that I still have to determine which ones actually produced floods.

Doug

[Doug1066]

The Hypostyle Hall at Karnak was built about 5240 aBP.  If those two "water marks" reflect actual floods, then there were two major floods between 5240 and 4260 aBP.  One of these would be Noah's Flood.  Now we're getting somewhere.

Doug

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

The second of my concerns is genetics - if EVERYONE except some bloke from the Levent died, then EVERYONE must be able to trace their genetics through him. They don’t. 

[Piney]

On 9/20/2023 at 4:52 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

The second of my concerns is genetics - if EVERYONE except some bloke from the Levent died, then EVERYONE must be able to trace their genetics through him. They don’t. 

Doug knows. He's is looking for the event behind the Babylonian legend. 

[SHaYap]

They're probably busy trying to 3-D print the next perfect extra terrestrial corpse... 

~

[Orphalesion]

If the Deluge is inspired by real life events then it's likely in very general terms. If it happened I'd say it was a regional flood, maybe one that was worse than the usual floods in the area or that happened in a region that didn't usually flood (due to change in climate and weather patterns) and/or a flood that devastated a specific city  or couple of cities in a region. Over time that story then grew into a global flood as the story spread, each culture interpreted  it in its own way and the various versions cross-pollinated each other. It might have merged with other regional flood reports over time or purposefully exaggerated by cultures who wanted to use it as a tool to teach or control, or just by a creative storyteller with who liked big, dramatic events and so blew up the story (why does nobody ever consider that angle? Humans have always let their imaginations run wild. Little kids already make up stories. Why do people think it's impossible for ancient humans to do so?). Then by the time it ended up in the Ancient Hebrew texts it had turned into a global flood unleashed by their tribal god.

It's the same as with the Trojan war; if there's a real life event at the core of it, it might be based on a war that involved the sacking of Wilusa. But the story was liked, spread, merged with other stories...and by the time it was written down and codified it had turned into an epic 10 year siege that involved a plethora of real and imagined nations on both sides, likely also absorbing the stories of several local folk heroes and traditions of various places in Greece along the way. 

So any real life events behind the Biblical Flood...are certain to be a lot less dramatic and spectacular than a global flood that wiped civilization.

[Piney]

38 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

If the Deluge is inspired by real life events then it's likely in very general terms. If it happened I'd say it was a regional flood, maybe one that was worse than the usual floods in the area or that happened in a region that didn't usually flood (due to change in climate and weather patterns) and/or a flood that devastated a specific city  or couple of cities in a region. Over time that story then grew into a global flood as the story spread, each culture interpreted  it in its own way and the various versions cross-pollinated each other. It might have merged with other regional flood reports over time or purposefully exaggerated by cultures who wanted to use it as a tool to teach or control, or just by a creative storyteller with who liked big, dramatic events and so blew up the story (why does nobody ever consider that angle? Humans have always let their imaginations run wild. Little kids already make up stories. Why do people think it's impossible for ancient humans to do so?). Then by the time it ended up in the Ancient Hebrew texts it had turned into a global flood unleashed by their tribal god.

It's the same as with the Trojan war; if there's a real life event at the core of it, it might be based on a war that involved the sacking of Wilusa. But the story was liked, spread, merged with other stories...and by the time it was written down and codified it had turned into an epic 10 year siege that involved a plethora of real and imagined nations on both sides, likely also absorbing the stories of several local folk heroes and traditions of various places in Greece along the way. 

So any real life events behind the Biblical Flood...are certain to be a lot less dramatic and spectacular than a global flood that wiped civilization.

The most probable origin of the Algic flood legend, the Lake Missoula Flood was probably extremely dramatic.

I looked out over the Channeled Scablands and was in awe and could literally visualize the devastation. 

[Doug1066]

4 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

If the Deluge is inspired by real life events then it's likely in very general terms.

The Flood is attested by many ancient writers.  Manetho says it happened just before the beginning of the First Dynasty (c. 3050 BC; 5000 BP).  There are Egyptian records placing it in the reign of Djer, the reign of Den and the reign of Semerkhet.  At least, they all agree it was the First Dynasty.  The Palermo Stone records such a flood.

There is physical evidence of major floods across the Northern Hemisphere dating from 2310 BC (4260 BP).  This happens to be coincident with the Hekla4 eruption in Iceland.  There is geologic evidence of about 5 Nile superfloods during the Younger Dryas, two or three during the early Holocene and six or seven during the mid-Holocene.  There have been no such floods in the last 4300 years.  One of the mid-Holocene floods is coincident with the Hekla5 eruption in 6036 BP (4086 BC).  There is a flood layer at Kish that dates from about 4260 BC.

There is a flood layer at Ur of uncertain age, as well as several others in the Mesopotamian plain.

I started looking for a megaflood, only to find 13-15 of them.  I suspect that if we could extend the record farther into the Ice Age, we might find a great many more.

 

Climatologically, these are probably all linked to volcanic eruptions of at least VEI 4.0.  Two are linked to the Hekla4 and Hekla5 eruptions.  It is probably just coincidence, but Vesuvius erupted in 4280 BP, close enough the error in date estimation could make it identical to the 4260 flood.  Large volcanoes leave global signatures.  Tamboura (1815 in Indonesia) produced narrow tree rings in shortleaf pines from southeastern Oklahoma in 1816.  1816 is known as "the year without a summer."  In Europe the weather was so bad that Mary Shelley had to stay indoors; looking for something to do, she wrote Frankenstein.

I speculate that the different climate of the time (Intertropical Convergence Zone was farther north) produced greater humidity.  When a major volcano erupted, the cooling effect of the sulphur oxides and ash caused moisture to condense in prodigious amounts, falling as rain.  The Bible says The Flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights.  That's no garden-variety thunderstorm.  Giligamesh says The Flood came down the Tigris.  The Tigris comes from the mountains - the precip was also orographic.  All these Near East floods originated in either the Ethiopian or Zagros Mountains.

Doug

[jmccr8]

5 hours ago, SHaYap said:

They're probably busy trying to 3-D print the next perfect extra terrestrial corpse... 

~

Hi SHaYap

Funny you say that my girls just bought me a 3D printer. Been to busy to play with it yet but when things slow down am going to spend some time learning how to use it.

[cormac mac airt]

56 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

The Flood is attested by many ancient writers.  Manetho says it happened just before the beginning of the First Dynasty (c. 3050 BC; 5000 BP).  There are Egyptian records placing it in the reign of Djer, the reign of Den and the reign of Semerkhet.  At least, they all agree it was the First Dynasty.  The Palermo Stone records such a flood.

There is physical evidence of major floods across the Northern Hemisphere dating from 2310 BC (4260 BP).  This happens to be coincident with the Hekla4 eruption in Iceland.  There is geologic evidence of about 5 Nile superfloods during the Younger Dryas, two or three during the early Holocene and six or seven during the mid-Holocene.  There have been no such floods in the last 4300 years.  One of the mid-Holocene floods is coincident with the Hekla5 eruption in 6036 BP (4086 BC).  There is a flood layer at Kish that dates from about 4260 BC.

There is a flood layer at Ur of uncertain age, as well as several others in the Mesopotamian plain.

I started looking for a megaflood, only to find 13-15 of them.  I suspect that if we could extend the record farther into the Ice Age, we might find a great many more.

 

Climatologically, these are probably all linked to volcanic eruptions of at least VEI 4.0.  Two are linked to the Hekla4 and Hekla5 eruptions.  It is probably just coincidence, but Vesuvius erupted in 4280 BP, close enough the error in date estimation could make it identical to the 4260 flood.  Large volcanoes leave global signatures.  Tamboura (1815 in Indonesia) produced narrow tree rings in shortleaf pines from southeastern Oklahoma in 1816.  1816 is known as "the year without a summer."  In Europe the weather was so bad that Mary Shelley had to stay indoors; looking for something to do, she wrote Frankenstein.

I speculate that the different climate of the time (Intertropical Convergence Zone was farther north) produced greater humidity.  When a major volcano erupted, the cooling effect of the sulphur oxides and ash caused moisture to condense in prodigious amounts, falling as rain.  The Bible says The Flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights.  That's no garden-variety thunderstorm.  Gilgamesh says The Flood came down the Tigris.  The Tigris comes from the mountains - the precip was also orographic.  All these Near East floods originated in either the Ethiopian or Zagros Mountains.

Doug

Shuruppak is on the banks of the Euphrates, not the Tigris. 
 

cormac

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

Shuruppak is on the banks of the Euphrates, not the Tigris. 
 

cormac

Agreed.  So what's the problem?

Doug

P.S.:  HeklaO dates from the Early Holocene.  Don't know if it correlates with any of those floods.

Doug

Edited September 22, 2023 by Doug1066

[SHaYap]

2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi SHaYap

Funny you say that my girls just bought me a 3D printer. Been to busy to play with it yet but when things slow down am going to spend some time learning how to use it.

Good for you. 

Better be prepared to pace yourself, a buddy of mine got obsessed with his new gizmo and didn't see the outside world for three days before he realized it... Be forewarned 

~

[cormac mac airt]

13 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Agreed.  So what's the problem?

Doug

P.S.:  HeklaO dates from the Early Holocene.  Don't know if it correlates with any of those floods.

Doug

The claim about Gilgamesh is wrong as he never said that. 
 

cormac

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, SHaYap said:

Good for you. 

Better be prepared to pace yourself, a buddy of mine got obsessed with his new gizmo and didn't see the outside world for three days before he realized it... Be forewarned 

~

Hi SHaYap

I have so much work going on right now it might be a month before I can get around to 3D printing a Walker clone to download him into.

[Doug1066]

2 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

The claim about Gilgamesh is wrong as he never said that. 
 

cormac

I just speed read the entire story - all 11 tablets.  And I didn't find it.  I must have had a different source.  At any rate, until I find it again, I guess I can't use that.

Lots of talk about the south wind.  I wonder if that might be a clue.

Maybe Atrahasis?

Doug

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Doug1066

[Doug1066]

5 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

The Flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights.

Gilgamesh says it only lasted seven.  Still, seven can be a lot.  Look what happened in Boulder, Colorado in 2013 in just four days.

Doug

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I just speed read the entire story - all 11 tablets.  And I didn't find it.  I must have had a different source.  At any rate, until I find it again, I guess I can't use that.

Lots of talk about the south wind.  I wonder if that might be a clue.

Doug

I myself didn’t speed read, I remembered it from years ago. The mention of Shuruppak should have been the obvious clue for you as to the Euphrates being responsible. And as I’ve shown in the other thread the Euphrates and NOT some little stream in Eridu was responsible for fresh water near that city. If you’re going to try to validate the Great Flood as based on the Epic of Gilgamesh or similar Mesopotamian tales you’re going to have to find evidence that primarily, if not solely, concerns the Euphrates’ responsibility for same IMO. 
 

cormac