In Search of Noah's Flood

[Doug1066]

15 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I myself didn’t speed read, I remembered it from years ago. The mention of Shuruppak should have been the obvious clue for you as to the Euphrates being responsible. And as I’ve shown in the other thread the Euphrates and NOT some little stream in Eridu was responsible for fresh water near that city. If you’re going to try to validate the Great Flood as based on the Epic of Gilgamesh or similar Mesopotamian tales you’re going to have to find evidence that primarily, if not solely, concerns the Euphrates’ responsibility for same IMO. 
 

cormac

Eridu doesn't have anything to do with the search for The Flood.  That's a different project which I may or may not ever get to.

I will try to match up sediment deposits with a chronology.  I no longer think that all of the sediment deposits date from the same flood.  Kish appears to be younger, but I'll have to check that out.

The ancient tales are a mess with regards to dating.  And archeologists haven't been much help with accurate dates.  Anything written before about 1960 can't be trusted for a good date.

My attempt to date The Flood using Manetho went nowhere.  And the Mediterranean volcanoes don't seem to help.  So we're getting down to endless collections of sediment cores.  Still don't know whether I'm looking for six or seven megafloods.

Doug

[Doug1066]

46 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I myself didn’t speed read, I remembered it from years ago. The mention of Shuruppak should have been the obvious clue for you as to the Euphrates being responsible. And as I’ve shown in the other thread the Euphrates and NOT some little stream in Eridu was responsible for fresh water near that city. If you’re going to try to validate the Great Flood as based on the Epic of Gilgamesh or similar Mesopotamian tales you’re going to have to find evidence that primarily, if not solely, concerns the Euphrates’ responsibility for same IMO. 
 

cormac

I found an article that shows the trickle water-way I was talking about:  https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/3854037.pdf

See Figure 6.  The water-way, such as it is, is in the upper right corner.  It has two branches, each coming in from the top of the figure.

After leaving the site, proper, it flows out to the Euphrates by way of some of those channels shown on your map.

How the residents got water was not a major question for these investigators, so they didn't give it much attention.

Doug

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

I found an article that shows the trickle water-way I was talking about:  https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/3854037.pdf

See Figure 6.  The water-way, such as it is, is in the upper right corner.  It has two branches, each coming in from the top of the figure.

After leaving the site, proper, it flows out to the Euphrates by way of some of those channels shown on your map.

How the residents got water was not a major question for these investigators, so they didn't give it much attention.

Doug

There are no trickle waterways around Eridu: 

These courses are part and parcel of the Euphrates, the black line showing roughly a distance of 1/2 mile from the center of Eridu. 

cormac

Edited September 22, 2023 by cormac mac airt
cleanup

[+Hammerclaw]

38 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

There are no trickle waterways around Eridu: 

These courses are part and parcel of the Euphrates, the black line showing roughly a distance of 1/2 mile from the center of Eridu. 

cormac

Eridu is one of the earliest settlements in the region, founded c. 5400 BC during the Early Ubaid period, at that time close to the Persian Gulf near the mouth of the Euphrates River though in modern times about 90 miles inland.    wikipedia

[SHaYap]

Shouldn't the topology and elevation of the area be more of a concern? 

~

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Eridu is one of the earliest settlements in the region, founded c. 5400 BC during the Early Ubaid period, at that time close to the Persian Gulf near the mouth of the Euphrates River though in modern times about 90 miles inland.    wikipedia

All of which I’m aware of. There was also a canal from the Euphrates to Eridu that was dug, named Id-edin-Eriduga, late 3rd millennium BC possibly to make up for the Euphrates’ changing course. No trickle stream evidenced or required. 
 

cormac

Edited September 23, 2023 by cormac mac airt

[cormac mac airt]

42 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

Shouldn't the topology and elevation of the area be more of a concern? 

~

Eridu sits in a basin to which part of the Euphrates flowed so no trickle stream is going to make its way out. 
 

cormac

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, SHaYap said:

Shouldn't the topology and elevation of the area be more of a concern? 

~

Yeah, considering 6,000 years of flooding has extended the land and river delta 90 miles. I'm still bewildered the OP thinks the Biblical flood is based on a specific historical event, in a land that so frequently flooded.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yeah, considering 6'000 years of flooding has extended the land and river delta 90 miles. I'm still bewildered the OP thinks the Biblical flood is based on a specific historical event, in a land that so frequently flooded.

Agro activities, irrigation as well as climate anomalies due to geological tectonic process too. Not out of the realm of possibility that the biblical flood was based on historical events, specifically or not. It will be a huge undertaking to narrow it down to one specific event though. 

~

 

[+Hammerclaw]

17 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

Agro activities, irrigation as well as climate anomalies due to geological tectonic process too. Not out of the realm of possibility that the biblical flood was based on historical events, specifically or not. It will be a huge undertaking to narrow it down to one specific event though. 

~

 

Since the Biblical flood as written was an impossibility and floods happen anywhere there's a river, it's a common plot device in a lot ancient and contemporary narratives. 

[SHaYap]

7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Since the Biblical flood as written was an impossibility and floods happen anywhere there's a river, it's a common plot device in a lot ancient and contemporary narratives. 

That's the point though, I don't believe this is about the veracity of biblical accounts, just the veracity of a flood. 

I just take into consideration the way and possibility that the world was seen as before the overview effect. The world was mostly as far as the eye can see, and will end at any moment... From the time of no gods to "our god/gods" "my gods/god" and "their" false god/gods 

~

~

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

That's the point though, I don't believe this is about the veracity of biblical accounts, just the veracity of a flood. 

I just take into consideration the way and possibility that the world was seen as before the overview effect. The world was mostly as far as the eye can see, and will end at any moment... From the time of no gods to "our god/gods" "my gods/god" and "their" false god/gods 

~

~

Many world views were, the problem is that they all can’t, or at least shouldn’t, be pigeonholed into the same singular belief of a Great Flood as such never happened nor could it. 
 

cormac

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Many world views were, the problem is that they all can’t, or at least shouldn’t, be pigeonholed into the same singular belief of a Great Flood as such never happened nor could it. 
 

cormac

I'm not so much looking at this as a biblical Great flood but just as a flood out of the many floods, great enough to be entrenched into the traditional established accounts of the early civilizations of the day. 

~

 

[cormac mac airt]

10 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

I'm not so much looking at this as a biblical Great flood but just as a flood out of the many floods, great enough to be entrenched into the traditional established accounts of the early civilizations of the day. 

~

Unfortunately the OP is attempting to rationalize whatever he can find as “the Great Flood” regardless, whether it’s the Mesopotamian or Biblical version.
 

Hypothetically speaking even if there was “a” Great Flood there is no way to separate it, with any specificity, from any of a number of other floods in the region. 

cormac

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Unfortunately the OP is attempting to rationalize whatever he can find as “the Great Flood” regardless, whether it’s the Mesopotamian or Biblical version.

I kinda understand that those two were from the same sources, whether or not it was of the same flood is another question entirely. 

~

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Hypothetically speaking even if there was “a” Great Flood there is no way to separate it, with any specificity, from any of a number of other floods in the region. 

cormac

By way of archeology and geo location substrate dating evaluation, it can add something to the understanding. 

If I'm not mistaken, the doggerland tsunami was about 8000years (?) ago, G.Tepi is at least 12000years, the Sumerian accounts was what... Around about 6 to 7 thousand? How far back did these stories of great floods reach? How old were these traditional lores is what I am interested in. 

Did the doggerland event cause great changes to the weather system, for a short period in the long history of humankind? 

How far inland did the doggerland tsunami get before receding back to present coastline? 

I have to get back to making lunch...

Cheers... 

~

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

I kinda understand that those two were from the same sources, whether or not it was of the same flood is another question entirely. 

~

By way of archeology and geo location substrate dating evaluation, it can add something to the understanding. 

If I'm not mistaken, the doggerland tsunami was about 8000years (?) ago, G.Tepi is at least 12000years, the Sumerian accounts was what... Around about 6 to 7 thousand? How far back did these stories of great floods reach? How old were these traditional lores is what I am interested in. 

Did the doggerland event cause great changes to the weather system, for a short period in the long history of humankind? 

How far inland did the doggerland tsunami get before receding back to present coastline? 

I have to get back to making lunch...

Cheers... 

~

Not much really as the dating, whether speculated or confirmed, is all over the place with nothing to place any one date above the rest as “the” flood and zero witnesses. 
 

Some of these flood stories may date older than Gobekli Tepe, but that just goes back to the problems I’ve mentioned. 
 

cormac

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, SHaYap said:

That's the point though, I don't believe this is about the veracity of biblical accounts, just the veracity of a flood. 

I just take into consideration the way and possibility that the world was seen as before the overview effect. The world was mostly as far as the eye can see, and will end at any moment... From the time of no gods to "our god/gods" "my gods/god" and "their" false god/gods 

~

~

How do you verify a flood in a fairy tale?

[SHaYap]

33 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

How do you verify a flood in a fairy tale?

You stop believing in fairies... 

~

[Doug1066]

20 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Eridu is one of the earliest settlements in the region, founded c. 5400 BC during the Early Ubaid period, at that time close to the Persian Gulf near the mouth of the Euphrates River though in modern times about 90 miles inland.    wikipedia

Then it should have been present for at least two of the megafloods.  But, as I understand it, it is too far above the level of the river to have any flood deposits.

Doug

14 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

How do you verify a flood in a fairy tale?

Any flood should leave traces of its passing.  Flood deposits in slack-water areas, scour in areas of rapid movement, ancient writings telling of it, sediment cores indicating sudden rise in water level, etc, etc.

Doug

[Doug1066]

15 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Unfortunately the OP is attempting to rationalize whatever he can find as “the Great Flood” regardless, whether it’s the Mesopotamian or Biblical version.

I am trying to use geological evidence to identify possible floods from the mid-Holocene.  If the stories are true, one of them was Noah's Flood, but if not, then all I have identified is a bunch of big floods.

It seems pretty definite that I have identified two - the 6036 flood on the Nile, which probably included Mesopotamia, and the 4260 flood which is shown on the Palermo Stone and in numerous sediment cores.

Are the legends true?  There are many ancient references to a big flood during and/or just before the Egyptian First Dynasty.  I believe the ancients experienced a big flood, most likely the 4260 flood.  Could an earlier flood have found its way into human memory?  I don't know.

Doug

[Doug1066]

17 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yeah, considering 6,000 years of flooding has extended the land and river delta 90 miles. I'm still bewildered the OP thinks the Biblical flood is based on a specific historical event, in a land that so frequently flooded.

In order to look for an event, you must assume that it happened, then figure out the details.  Does observable fact comport with the legend?  I don't believe any of you doubters have even attempted to look for the facts.

As of right now, I have no evidence that there even was a biblical flood.  There is an available time slot where one could have happened, but as of now, I don't have a flood to put in it.

My reading of Gilgamesh didn't help - it barely mentions a flood and gives nothing at all about how extensive it might have been.  Maybe it was just a garden-variety hundred-year flood.  Also implies that there were cedar trees around - doesn't sound like the Mesopotamian plain to me.  I don't think Gilgamesh will help, but there are two or three more pieces of Mesopotamian literature I still have to read.

Doug

[Doug1066]

15 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Some of these flood stories may date older than Gobekli Tepe, but that just goes back to the problems I’ve mentioned. 

At least five during the Younger Dryas and two or three in the Northgrippian.  These are all older than Gobekli Tepe.

Doug

[Doug1066]

19 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

No trickle stream evidenced or required.

Even when identified and mapped by archeologists?

Doug

[cormac mac airt]

27 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I am trying to use geological evidence to identify possible floods from the mid-Holocene.  If the stories are true, one of them was Noah's Flood, but if not, then all I have identified is a bunch of big floods.

It seems pretty definite that I have identified two - the 6036 flood on the Nile, which probably included Mesopotamia, and the 4260 flood which is shown on the Palermo Stone and in numerous sediment cores.

Are the legends true?  There are many ancient references to a big flood during and/or just before the Egyptian First Dynasty.  I believe the ancients experienced a big flood, most likely the 4260 flood.  Could an earlier flood have found its way into human memory?  I don't know.

Doug

The problem is that you can’t definitively equate a Nile flood with a Hekla caused flood nor a Mediterranean flood regardless of timeframe and therefore claim it’s Noah’s Flood. The best you might be able to accomplish is nothing more than a possibility, that’s it. And that’s all dependent on the story having originated from one single flood which IS NOT a given. 
 

cormac

[+Hammerclaw]

49 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Then it should have been present for at least two of the megafloods.  But, as I understand it, it is too far above the level of the river to have any flood deposits.

Doug

Any flood should leave traces of its passing.  Flood deposits in slack-water areas, scour in areas of rapid movement, ancient writings telling of it, sediment cores indicating sudden rise in water level, etc, etc.

Doug

How do you know the Biblical flood is based on a real event and how are calculating the date it occurred?