In Search of Noah's Flood

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Seems that lots of sediment cores reach into the appropriate layers, but not many have dates from the bottom of those layers.  This may be more challenging than I thought.

Doug

Told you so Brother Doug.

On 9/23/2023 at 8:26 PM, Hammerclaw said:

Graham Hancock probably already has. You seem to be basing your chronology on the Bible. One might suspect you're a young Earther.

Naw, just another young Hicksite Quaker like myself who is trying to find actual events to fit the legends like I once did. 

[Doug1066]

On 9/24/2023 at 10:38 AM, cormac mac airt said:

if the cities mentioned in the Eridu Genesis are relevant then the story is pre-3000 BC at least.

The 4260 BP flood seems to be fact.  Before that, there may have been another about 4600 BP (2650 BP).  There may also have been two more between 5811 (3861 BC) and 4600 BP.  5811 to 4260 is the gray zone.  Can't tell what's in it.  There were two prior to 5811 BP, one at 6036 and one about 6300 BP.  "Noah's Flood" seems to be in the gray zone.

The value of flood stories is that they identify locations that can then be checked for archeological evidence.  But, I haven't done that, yet, so no conclusions at this time.

Also, looks like I'm going to have to go for varve dates as 14C doesn't work on flood layers - too much contamination - unless an in situ tree can be found and ring-dated.

Doug

 

[Doug1066]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:30 AM, cormac mac airt said:

There were many floods in Mesopotamia,

Only superfloods are of interest.  There are only 6 or 7 of those in the whole mid-Holocene.  These would be at least 300-year floods for their time.

Between then and now, there would have been at least 42 100-year floods.  I'm thinking that's what you mean.

I doubt there are many people in Oklahoma who have ever seen a 100-year flood.  The last one was in 1921.  A lot of folks thought the 2007 flood was big, but it was only a 50-year flood.  A superflood is almost unimaginably big.

Doug

[Doug1066]

15 hours ago, Piney said:

Told you so Brother Doug.

Naw, just another young Hicksite Quaker like myself who is trying to find actual events to fit the legends like I once did. 

Did you give up?

Doug

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

Did you give up?

Doug

No....

[cormac mac airt]

2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

The 4260 BP flood seems to be fact.  Before that, there may have been another about 4600 BP (2650 BP).  There may also have been two more between 5811 (3861 BC) and 4600 BP.  5811 to 4260 is the gray zone.  Can't tell what's in it.  There were two prior to 5811 BP, one at 6036 and one about 6300 BP.  "Noah's Flood" seems to be in the gray zone.

The value of flood stories is that they identify locations that can then be checked for archeological evidence.  But, I haven't done that, yet, so no conclusions at this time.

Also, looks like I'm going to have to go for varve dates as 14C doesn't work on flood layers - too much contamination - unless an in situ tree can be found and ring-dated.

If so that just means you are no longer talking about Noah's Flood, as I've already laid out the general timeframe for same based on the current Hebrew Calendar. That makes Noah's Flood a minimum of at least 200 years too late and if we equate it with the Eridu Genesis flood tale then it becomes more than 1000+ years too early.

Quote

Only superfloods are of interest.  There are only 6 or 7 of those in the whole mid-Holocene.  These would be at least 300-year floods for their time.

Why? Based on what exactly? And how is it that YOU get to determine what someone may have meant back then by a "Great" flood? Even if one were to take the Great Flood story seriously, and I did at one time, it's just as much hear-say as the alleged "teachings of Jesus". The flood stories were written centuries to millenia after the fact with no singular discernible timeframe nor witnesses to them at all. If you are indeed trying to find the Biblical Great Flood then you're constrained by the timeframe of the Biblical texts as currently believed so you should already have your answer, it's negative. If you're actually trying to find the precursor for the Great Flood then you're going to have a harder time than you think as there's no actual evidence of a "Great Flood" in Eridu however there are dozens, perhaps even hundreds of Euphrates originated channel changes that essentially surround the city as well as there being at least one canal, Id-Edin-Eriduga, dug from the Euphrates to Eridu late 3rd millenia likely because the Euphrates as a source of fresh water had moved too far away. And no, your trickle stream isn't in evidence anywhere. 

cormac

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

If so that just means you are no longer talking about Noah's Flood,

Correct.  I am talking about somewhere in the neighborhood of seven possible superfloods.

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

based on the current Hebrew Calendar.

The Hebrew calendar is no more accurate than the Christian (or Sumerian) one, unless you use negative dates.  I am using the BP calendar.

 

Only superfloods can be detected after 5000 years.  A hundred-year flood flies under the radar.

The definition of a superflood or megaflood is a 1000-year flood.  BUT:  with the climate changing throughout the Early and mid-Holocene, the definition of a superflood changes, too.  I am using the climatological definition. What the ancients thought constituted a "Great Flood" is of little concern.  The ones I am looking at didn't even occur once in most lifetimes.  If they did, they would be remembered.

I am looking for the prototype of Noah's Flood.  I would not expect it to be a perfect match for any ancient story.  But maybe I can find enough clues to identify some possibilities.

I'll have to read up on the Eridu Genesis story, then see what the excavations uncovered.  Based on Wooley's excavations, The Flood wouldn't have been much more than 38 feet above the plain (28 feet above the immediate terrain.).  In a slack water area it may not have left an identifiable mark.  So no mark at Eridu means no mark, not no flood.  The Bonneville Flood was many times the size of Noah's Flood, yet there are stretches where it left nothing to mark the shoreline.

The evidence will be in the form of varve stratigraphies in playa ponds and lakes, dated volcanic ash beds, 14C-dated in situ samples.  The last step is to see if any legends check enough boxes to conclude that they are referring to a specific flood.

I have only checked the WM2 tree ring chronology.  It wasn't much help.  Too many possibilities is about the same as no possibility.

Doug 

 

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Correct.  I am talking about somewhere in the neighborhood of seven possible superfloods.

The Hebrew calendar is no more accurate than the Christian (or Sumerian) one, unless you use negative dates.  I am using the BP calendar.

Only superfloods can be detected after 5000 years.  A hundred-year flood flies under the radar.

The definition of a superflood or megaflood is a 1000-year flood.  BUT:  with the climate changing throughout the Early and mid-Holocene, the definition of a superflood changes, too.  I am using the climatological definition. What the ancients thought constituted a "Great Flood" is of little concern.  The ones I am looking at didn't even occur once in most lifetimes.  If they did, they would be remembered.

I am looking for the prototype of Noah's Flood.  I would not expect it to be a perfect match for any ancient story.  But maybe I can find enough clues to identify some possibilities.

I'll have to read up on the Eridu Genesis story, then see what the excavations uncovered.  Based on Wooley's excavations, The Flood wouldn't have been much more than 38 feet above the plain (28 feet above the immediate terrain.).  In a slack water area it may not have left an identifiable mark.  So no mark at Eridu means no mark, not no flood.  The Bonneville Flood was many times the size of Noah's Flood, yet there are stretches where it left nothing to mark the shoreline.

The evidence will be in the form of varve stratigraphies in playa ponds and lakes, dated volcanic ash beds, 14C-dated in situ samples.  The last step is to see if any legends check enough boxes to conclude that they are referring to a specific flood.

I have only checked the WM2 tree ring chronology.  It wasn't much help.  Too many possibilities is about the same as no possibility.

Doug

Which makes it irrelevant to your own thread title. 
 

Seriously? By belief the Jewish calendar dates to 3761 BC. You have no point. 
 

Actually it’s of paramount concern as it’s their story. You’re essentially trying to rationalize it into being what you want it to be. That’s rather dishonest IMO. 
 

Looks more like you’re looking for whatever you can pigeonhole into the Great Flood story despite the lack of facts IMO. 
 

No mark at Eridu means no evidence of a Great Flood at Eridu. No evidence is just that! 
 

cormac

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

Which makes it irrelevant to your own thread title. 

If you single out one flood a priori there is nothing to keep you from choosing the wrong one.  One must first investigate every potential flood one can find and only then decide which one(s) might be prototypes for Noah's Flood.

The 4260 BP flood may be the prototype for Noah's Flood, but I won't know that until I check to see what other floods there were about that time.

 

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

By belief the Jewish calendar dates to 3761 BC. You have no point. 

The world didn't begin in 5711 BP (3761 BC).  If one is going to use the Jewish calendar, then negative dates are imperative.  Even if the world did begin in 5711 BP, that only leaves out the two oldest floods of the Mid-Holocene.  There are still four or five to investigate.

 

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

Actually it’s of paramount concern as it’s their story. You’re essentially trying to rationalize it into being what you want it to be. That’s rather dishonest IMO. 

You're trying to make the ancients the central authority on geology.

Maybe it is their story, but if it didn't happen that way in fact, then the story is irrelevant.

 

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

Looks more like you’re looking for whatever you can pigeonhole into the Great Flood story despite the lack of facts IMO

How do you know there's a lack of facts?  You haven't looked for any.  If you don't look, you won't find them.

 

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

No mark at Eridu means no evidence of a Great Flood at Eridu. No evidence is just that! 

No flood line means no flood line (no evidence); it doesn't mean no flood.  Floods don't have to leave evidence that researchers can find.

Doug

Edited September 27, 2023 by Doug1066

[cormac mac airt]

15 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

You're trying to make the ancients the central authority on geology.

Maybe it is their story, but if it didn't happen that way in fact, then the story is irrelevant.

 

How do you know there's a lack of facts?  You haven't looked for any.  If you don't look, you won't find them.

 

No flood line means no flood line (no evidence); it doesn't mean no flood.  Floods don't have to leave evidence that researchers can find.

Doug

Nope, the ancients are the central authority on their story. 
 

If the story/ies is/are irrelevant then so is calling it/them Ziusudra’s/Atrahasis’/Ut-Napishtim’s/Noah’s Flood. 
 

Actually I did years ago but the problem is that there are far too many floods in Mesopotamia and ZERO evidence of any of them supporting any of the ancient flood stories in that region. 

Floods aren’t magic. 
 

cormac

 

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

Nope, the ancients are the central authority on their story. 
 

If the story/ies is/are irrelevant then so is calling it/them Ziusudra’s/Atrahasis’/Ut-Napishtim’s/Noah’s Flood. 
 

Actually I did years ago but the problem is that there are far too many floods in Mesopotamia and ZERO evidence of any of them supporting any of the ancient flood stories in that region. 

Floods aren’t magic. 
 

cormac

 

I'm a few years behind you, then.  I'm finding good varve data hard to come by.  I may not be able to resolve the issues.

I am pretty sure there was a megaflood about 4260 BP.  Otherwise, the evidence is a little shaky.

Doug

[cormac mac airt]

13 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I'm a few years behind you, then.  I'm finding good varve data hard to come by.  I may not be able to resolve the issues.

I am pretty sure there was a megaflood about 4260 BP.  Otherwise, the evidence is a little shaky.

Doug

Something else to take into consideration concerning the Biblical Flood is that the Jews were Canaanite in origin the latter of which moved into the Levant circa 3500 BC from the northeast. They knew NOTHING about any floods in Southern Mesopotamia.

cormac

[Doug1066]

14 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Something else to take into consideration concerning the Biblical Flood is that the Jews were Canaanite in origin the latter of which moved into the Levant circa 3500 BC from the northeast. They knew NOTHING about any floods in Southern Mesopotamia.

cormac

3500 BC = 5450 BP, long before the 4260 BP flood.

I have suspected a flood about 5450 BP.  Could there be a connection?

Doug

[cormac mac airt]

2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

3500 BC = 5450 BP, long before the 4260 BP flood.

I have suspected a flood about 5450 BP.  Could there be a connection?

Doug

What kind of connection could there be, when I said the Canaanites originated from the northeast that was a generalization, it was more from some point between the Caucasus and Northern Syria? Southern Mesopotamia would have been totally irrelevant to them yet that’s where the Great Flood stories originate. The Israelites didn’t even become a separate distinct entity until circa 1208 BC in the Levant and likely didn’t come across any Mesopotamian flood stories until the 6th century BC during the Babylonian Captivity and then compiled the Old Testament sometime thereafter. 
 

cormac

Edited September 28, 2023 by cormac mac airt

[Doug1066]

2 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

What kind of connection could there be, when I said the Canaanites originated from the northeast that was a generalization, it was more from some point between the Caucasus and Northern Syria? Southern Mesopotamia would have been totally irrelevant to them yet that’s where the Great Flood stories originate. The Israelites didn’t even become a separate distinct entity until circa 1208 BC in the Levant and likely didn’t come across any Mesopotamian flood stories until the 6th century BC during the Babylonian Captivity and then compiled the Old Testament sometime thereafter. 
 

cormac

It is believed that the Vikings moved out of their homes to raid Europe because good climate conditions had resulted in bumper crops and their population had increased as a result.  The surplus population moved west as raiders.

The Beaker people appeared at Stonehenge beginning about 2380 BC.  They came from areas affected by the "mid-Holocene climate anomaly."  They may have been refugees from the flood.  My guess:  they were refugees from the same drought(s) that did in the Akkadian Empire.

The "Israelites" were probably just a single tribe - Levy - that emigrated from Egypt about 1200 BC.  I haven't tried figure out where they came from before then.  Egyptian pottery (the type the "Israelites" would have made) constitutes only 5% of the pottery found in Sinai.  There weren't any great numbers of them there.

Immigrants to the Mesopotamian plain after a flood would have found little to no competition for land.

Doug

 

[cormac mac airt]

10 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

It is believed that the Vikings moved out of their homes to raid Europe because good climate conditions had resulted in bumper crops and their population had increased as a result.  The surplus population moved west as raiders.

The Beaker people appeared at Stonehenge beginning about 2380 BC.  They came from areas affected by the "mid-Holocene climate anomaly."  They may have been refugees from the flood.  My guess:  they were refugees from the same drought(s) that did in the Akkadian Empire.

The "Israelites" were probably just a single tribe - Levy - that emigrated from Egypt about 1200 BC.  I haven't tried figure out where they came from before then.  Egyptian pottery (the type the "Israelites" would have made) constitutes only 5% of the pottery found in Sinai.  There weren't any great numbers of them there.

Immigrants to the Mesopotamian plain after a flood would have found little to no competition for land.

Doug

 

I don’t see any evidence of that. 
 

You don’t need to as it’s already been determined the Israelites were Canaanite in origin, also that they were NEVER slaves in Egypt. The Egyptians, per the Merneptah Stele circa 1208 BC, singled them out as a distinct people’s living in the Levant.

Incorrect as evidenced by the mentioned sites, most of which continued to exist as locally inhabited. 

None of the above has anything to do with the flood. 

cormac

[+Hammerclaw]

The only time the Exodus could have occurred was 300 years earlier when the Semitic Hyksos conquerors, who ruled Egypt from their delta capital of Avaris were overthrown by Ahmose I in the 16th century BC, when there, indeed, arose a "Pharoah who knew not Joseph". 

[cormac mac airt]

40 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The only time the Exodus could have occurred was 300 years earlier when the Semitic Hyksos conquerors, who ruled Egypt from their delta capital of Avaris were overthrown by Ahmose I in the 16th century BC, when there, indeed, arose a "Pharoah who knew not Joseph". 

And even that has problems as the Hyksos evidence a northern Levantine origin which strictly speaking does not make them Hebrews/Israelites, what it may do however is make the Hyksos a sister group of Canaanites much like the later Israelites and Phoenicians. 
 

cormac

[Doug1066]

2 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

You don’t need to as it’s already been determined the Israelites were Canaanite in origin,

The majority were.  But the stories in the OT are about one small group.  Some of those desert springs couldn't support 10 families, let alone the thousands that some people see in them.  Hazeroth (Ayn Hudera) has 42 pounded-earth tent sites.  Maybe 400 people camped there.  A substantial number, judging by pottery percentages, cam from Arabia and a small number came from Egypt.  There was a significant copper industry in Sinai at the time the "Israelites" were supposedly fighting with Pharaoh's army.  I think they worked together a lot more than they fought.

 

2 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

None of the above has anything to do with the flood. 

I don't know that they did have anything to do with the flood.  I don't even know if the time is quite right.  It's a possibility, not a certainty.

Doug

[Doug1066]

2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

The only time the Exodus could have occurred was 300 years earlier when the Semitic Hyksos conquerors, who ruled Egypt from their delta capital of Avaris were overthrown by Ahmose I in the 16th century BC, when there, indeed, arose a "Pharoah who knew not Joseph". 

There wasn't just one Exodus.  Over the millenia, lots of people had reasons to get out of Egypt fast.  After 1500 BC, Thutmose III reopened the Sinai mines.  Most years for about 300 years there was a mining expedition to Sinai.  Ramses III built a fort at Suez and a Temple to Hathor at Serabit al Kjadim (the "mountain of god" in the Bible).  Adjacent to the "mountain of god" is Gebel Sanya (the original Mount Sinai).

Two plagues (burning hail and darkness) were products of the eruption of Santorini/Thera in 1628 BC at the end of the 16th (Hyksos) dynasty.  At that time, the Heroopolitic Red Sea was full and the crossing site was impassable.  Moses' male genealogy is a Hyksos king list from the 16th Dynasty with Moses, himself, corresponding to Ahmose I of the 17th Dynasty.

Then we jump ahead a couple centuries.

Another Moses prototype was Djehuti, the friend of Queen Hatshepsut's lover and architect, Senemet.  I suspect that Hatshepsut was the Pharaoh's daughter of the Bible, but there are lots of Pharaoh's daughters to choose from and there's no supporting evidence.  Djethuti was part of Hatshepsut's court.  When she died, he was the one who took her body to her mortuary temple and completed the funeral rites.   While there, Thutmose III, fearing Hatshepsut's court, sent an assasin to kill him.  That man's name was Ptah-Sokar.  He was the one Moses killed and buried in the sand.  Ramses III ordered Djehuti to account for his misdeed (a trail, probably rigged).  Djehuti escaped to Joppa where he served the Sheik of Joppa.  While there he captured a bunch of men who were trying to overthrow the Sheik (The story is that of Alababa and the Forty Thieves from the Arabian Nights.).  He invited Thutmoses III to send a delegation to Joppa and take the prisoners as slaves.

Then we have another gap.

The Pharaoh of the Oppression was Horemheb.  The Pharaoh at the time of THE Exodus was Ramses I, but it was the soon-to-be Pharaoh, Seti I, who negotiated with "Moses."  The part about Pharaoh drowning at the Red Sea is probably just good story-telling, but Ramses I did die of an ear infection (contaminated salt water?).

The "slaves" were "lepers and unclean people" that a sooth-sayer told Seti to remove from Egypt.  Seti hated Asiatics and decided to evict them, too.  But he was under orders from Horemheb and Ramses I to build a city at Avaris (Piramses, the biblical Ramses) and he needed workmen.  So he put them to work.  The leader of the "slaves" was an ex-Priest of On named Osar-seph.  He invited Hyksos-descendents from Jerusalem to help free the slaves in return for their old capital.  Only the 600 chariots made it into the Bible; although, Josephus tells of thousands more cavalry and infantry.  The siege of Piramses was an on-again off-again affair lasting 13 years "despoiling the Egyptians."  Finally, the 13-year curse laid by the sooth-sayer expired and Seti brought in the army.

Then there's another jump.

Nobody knows if the following is true, but the timing is impeccable.  The ex-Pharaoh Amenmeses meets the Exodus in Sinai and leads it (more like rules it) for the next 40 years.  At that time, Ramses Vi is on the throne and shuits down the Sinai mines.  The unemployed miners have no work and so go home to Caanan.  Among them are about 200 families who do not eat pork and who settle in the Transjordan.

The Bible took these separate events and rolled them together into one story.  It's badly garbled, but the necessary story elements are there.

This is a very-abbreviated version.  I have compiled a two-inch-thick book on this.  I have not published it because it is not well-organized and needs to be re-written from that standpoint.  Also, archeology has outrun me since I wrote it; there are some new discoveries that require changes in the account.

Doug

Edited September 28, 2023 by Doug1066

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

There wasn't just one Exodus.  Over the millenia, lots of people had reasons to get out of Egypt fast.  After 1500 BC, Thutmose III reopened the Sinai mines.  Most years for about 300 years there was a mining expedition to Sinai.  Ramses III built a fort at Suez and a Temple to Hathor at Serabit al Kjadim (the "mountain of god" in the Bible).  Adjacent to the "mountain of god" is Gebel Sanya (the original Mount Sinai).

Two plagues (burning hail and darkness) were products of the eruption of Santorini/Thera in 1628 BC at the end of the 16th (Hyksos) dynasty.  At that time, the Heroopolitic Red Sea was full and the crossing site was impassable.  Moses' male genealogy is a Hyksos king list from the 16th Dynasty with Moses, himself, corresponding to Ahmose I of the 17th Dynasty.

Then we jump ahead a couple centuries.

Another Moses prototype was Djehuti, the friend of Queen Hatshepsut's lover and architect, Senemet.  I suspect that Hatshepsut was the Pharaoh's daughter of the Bible, but there are lots of Pharaoh's daughters to choose from and there's no supporting evidence.  Djethuti was part of Hatshepsut's court.  When she died, he was the one who took her body to her mortuary temple and completed the funeral rites.   While there, Thutmose III, fearing Hatshepsut's court, sent an assasin to kill him.  That man's name was Ptah-Sokar.  He was the one Moses killed and buried in the sand.  Ramses III ordered Djehuti to account for his misdeed (a trail, probably rigged).  Djehuti escaped to Joppa where he served the Sheik of Joppa.  While there he captured a bunch of men who were trying to overthrow the Sheik (The story is that of Alababa and the Forty Thieves from the Arabian Nights.).  He invited Thutmoses III to send a delegation to Joppa and take the prisoners as slaves.

Then we have another gap.

The Pharaoh of the Oppression was Horemheb.  The Pharaoh at the time of THE Exodus was Ramses I, but it was the soon-to-be Pharaoh, Seti I, who negotiated with "Moses."  The part about Pharaoh drowning at the Red Sea is probably just good story-telling, but Ramses I did die of an ear infection (contaminated salt water?).

The "slaves" were "lepers and unclean people" that a sooth-sayer told Seti to remove from Egypt.  Seti hated Asiatics and decided to evict them, too.  But he was under orders from Horemheb and Ramses I to build a city at Avaris (Piramses, the biblical Ramses) and he needed workmen.  So he put them to work.  The leader of the "slaves" was an ex-Priest of On named Osar-seph.  He invited Hyksos-descendents from Jerusalem to help free the slaves in return for their old capital.  Only the 600 chariots made it into the Bible; although, Josephus tells of thousands more cavalry and infantry.  The siege of Piramses was an on-again off-again affair lasting 13 years "despoiling the Egyptians."  Finally, the 13-year curse laid by the sooth-sayer expired and Seti brought in the army.

Then there's another jump.

Nobody knows if the following is true, but the timing is impeccable.  The ex-Pharaoh Amenmeses meets the Exodus in Sinai and leads it (more like rules it) for the next 40 years.  At that time, Ramses Vi is on the throne and shuits down the Sinai mines.  The unemployed miners have no work and so go home to Caanan.  Among them are about 200 families who do not eat pork and who settle in the Transjordan.

The Bible took these separate events and rolled them together into one story.  It's badly garbled, but the necessary story elements are there.

This is a very-abbreviated version.  I have compiled a two-inch-thick book on this.  I have not published it because it is not well-organized and needs to be re-written from that standpoint.  Also, archeology has outrun me since I wrote it; there are some new discoveries that require changes in the account.

Doug

There is no historical evidence of the Exodus or Semites in that time period, none at all. There is no point in trying to shoehorn the event into a later era to conform to the errant religious dates. The writings in the Bible are not historical documents and one can't construct an accurate sequence of events from them. A better approach is to try to match Biblical events to the known historical narrative. One has to remember that Exodus is just a story, unsupported by archaeological evidence, passed on by word of mouth for centuries before written down.

New Research Reveals Surprising Origins of Egypt's Hyksos Dynasty | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine

Edited September 28, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

There is no historical evidence of the Exodus or Semites in that time period, none at all. There is no point in trying to shoehorn the event into a later era to conform to the errant religious dates. The writings in the Bible are not historical documents and one can't construct an accurate sequence of events from them. A better approach is to try to match Biblical events to the known historical narrative. One has to remember that Exodus is just a story, unsupported by archaeological evidence, passed on by word of mouth for centuries before written down.

New Research Reveals Surprising Origins of Egypt's Hyksos Dynasty | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine

To my way of thinking it’s just as dishonest to take NON-Hebrew events and attribute them to later Hebrews as it was for the Hebrews themselves to steal stories and events from other cultures and rework them for their own self promotion. NEITHER is history. 
 

cormac

[+Hammerclaw]

5 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

To my way of thinking it’s just as dishonest to take NON-Hebrew events and attribute them to later Hebrews as it was for the Hebrews themselves to steal stories and events from other cultures and rework them for their own self promotion. NEITHER is history. 
 

cormac

I quite agree. My point is that if one is going to look for veracity in a fable concerning a Semite Exodus from Egypt one should seek one's facts in the era when there were actually Semites fleeing Egypt.

Bran Mac Morn.

[Doug1066]

14 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

There is no historical evidence of the Exodus or Semites in that time period, none at all. There is no point in trying to shoehorn the event into a later era to conform to the errant religious dates. The writings in the Bible are not historical documents and one can't construct an accurate sequence of events from them. A better approach is to try to match Biblical events to the known historical narrative. One has to remember that Exodus is just a story, unsupported by archaeological evidence, passed on by word of mouth for centuries before written down.

New Research Reveals Surprising Origins of Egypt's Hyksos Dynasty | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine

Part of the Exodus story did occur at that time.  Other parts occurred at other times.  The biblical story is an amalgamation of different events at different times.  Altogether, the account covers the reigns of 42 Pharaohs over about 450 years.

It wasn't a single event.  It is a STORY, not history.  I can't help it if you can't tell the difference between a story and a historical account.

Doug

P.S.:  if you'd read the posts before you fly off the handle, you'd know that.  You too, Cormac.

Doug

Edited September 29, 2023 by Doug1066

[Doug1066]

The Arctic Ocean was open from about 9000 to 5500 PB.  That period includes the three largest Nile superfloods, but does not include the three, maybe four, later ones.

An open Arctic Ocean would have profound effects on the world's weather.  In North America, the northern Great Plains were depopulated during this time.  It appears something happened in Eurasian, too, because at the end of it there were a lot of tribes on the move.

You take all these disparate facts and use them to bring the picture into focus.  You can't talk about Noah's Flood as if that was the only one.  If one is to understand the situation, one must know everything there is to know about Holocene superfloods.  Reading one Bible story, or even all the Sumerian stories, won't give you an accurate picture.

Doug