In Search of Noah's Flood

[+Hammerclaw]

29 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Part of the Exodus story did occur at that time.  Other parts occurred at other times.  The biblical story is an amalgamation of different events at different times.  Altogether, the account covers the reigns of 42 Pharaohs over about 450 years.

It wasn't a single event.  It is a STORY, not history.  I can't help it if you can't tell the difference between a story and a historical account.

Doug

P.S.:  if you'd read the posts before you fly off the handle, you'd know that.  You too, Cormac.

Doug

No one is flying off the handle; it is you who are over-reacting. If you had read and comprehended my post, you'd realize you're parroting my words back at me. The Great Flood Story is fiction, too. There were hundreds of floods before it. It's just a folk tale, narrated by storytellers around campfires for centuries before a scribe set pen to vellum to write it down. You should make a note of that in one of your unpublished manuscripts.

[Doug1066]

2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

No one is flying off the handle; it is you who are over-reacting. If you had read and comprehended my post, you'd realize you're parroting my words back at me. The Great Flood Story is fiction, too. There were hundreds of floods before it. It's just a folk tale, narrated by storytellers around campfires for centuries before a scribe set pen to vellum to write it down. You should make a note of that in one of your unpublished manuscripts.

Sorry.  I misunderstood what you said.

The Exodus is a fabrication made up of bits and pieces of real events.  Individually, these events happened, but they are assembled in a story that did not.  You might say they were incorrectly assembled.  So the Exodus is both true and false at the same time.

There is no written record of a flood before the 4260 BP flood, unless the Sumerian story is it.  The 4260 flood happened.  Whether it was "Noah's Flood," I have yet to determine, but I think the story probably originated earlier.

In order to establish Noah's Flood, I have to 

1.  Determine that there actually was a candidate flood.  This needs to be a specific flood.  Varve counts and tephra bracketing are the only reliable means of dating.  14C is approximate and may be good enough in some cases.

2.  Indicators in the stories must point to a unique feature of this flood.  Ex.:  it occurred between the New Stone Age and the Bronze Age.  It covered certain cities, but not others.  Why?

3.  Archeological evidence (flood layers) must be present and dated well enough to know how many floods we are discussing.  Most early archeologists only guessed at the dates using pottery assemblages.  This is not a reliable method.

Like I said, one must learn everything there is to know about Holocene floods.  This is not just poetic language.  It is a literal requirement of the work.

If these requirements are not met, I won't be able to say that I have found Noah's Flood.  I suspect the best I can do is name some possibilities.

Doug

[Doug1066]

A little slow today, but:  if a text written before the 4260 BP flood refers to a flood, then it is referring to an earlier flood, thus indicating that there, in fact, was an earlier flood.

Haven't done much 9/29.  Been busy with a global warming paper.

Doug

[Piney]

18 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Haven't done much 9/29.  Been busy with a global warming paper.

Doug

The spruces are now dying out here. The cranberry is next. 

[Doug1066]

Getting back to Noah's Flood:

The Mesopotamian plain was settled about 7500 BP.  No earlier flood can be Noah's Flood.  There were about seven later superfloods.

The Ubaid culture existed from about 6900 to 5300 BP.  The flood layer at Ur is above the Ubaid layer.  THAT flood occurred after 5300 BP.

There was a high-precipitation period from about 6650 to 6450 BP, matching up with the Late Chalcolithic/Early Bronze I transition.

There was a transition zone between Early Bronze I and Early Bronze II at about 4800-4700 BP.  A flood?

At Shuruppak there is a flood layer between Jemdat Nasr and the Early Dynastic levels.  The Early Dynastic at Shuruppak is approximately coeval with the Egyptian First Dynasty, which had a major flood in the 30th year of Semerkhet's co-rule with his predecessor.  Manetho says that there was a flood about 300 years earlier at the Egyptian pre-Dynastic/Dynastic transition.

It takes three superfloods to make all the above true.  The last (c. 4260 BP) cannot be Noah's Flood.

At any rate, the last 40,000 years of northeast African/Near Eastern climate has been hyper-arid, except for a wet period from 12,900 BP to about 4200 BP.  If there was a "Noah's Flood," it's in that range somewhere.  Within that were at least two wetter periods - 6650-6450 BP and 4800-4700 BP.  It was hyper-arid between 4700 BP and the mid-Holocene Climate Anomaly at about 4300 BP.

Hydrologically, superfloods could have occurred between 7000 BP and 6300 BP and again between 4900 and 4300 BP.

It is starting to sound as if the accounts told in the Sumerian stories are amalgamations of several real floods.

Doug

[Doug1066]

Finding some 14C dates for the Royal Cemetery at Ur.

Starting to look like multiple floods actually did happen at about 300-year intervals.

The Ur Late Dynasty IIIA flood seems to match Manetho's pre-dynastic/dynastic flood.  Only missed it by 30 years.  Pretty good considering the accuracy of archeological date guessing from pottery shards.

Doug

[Doug1066]

Looks like at least four floods:  a megaflood about 3500 BC, followed by two lesser floods about 2800 and 2630 BC and another megaflood about 2310 BC.  Two other maybe-floods before the 3500 BC flood.

 

May need some adjusting in those dates.  Found another list showing four floods.  3100BC between Late Ubaid and Jemdet Nasr, about 2900 BC between Jemdet Nasr and Early Dynatic I, about 2700 BC between Early Dyanstic I and Early Dynastic II and about 2500, mid-way through Early Dynastic III.  I wonder if any of these will match up with 14C dates.

 

Looks like there was no one "Noah's Flood."  The story seems to be a composite story of several floods.

 

All these occurred during the Northgrippian period, aka the mid-Holocene.  This was a wet period with lots of rainfall.

Doug

Edited December 20, 2023 by Doug1066

[Doug1066]

Make that five, maybe six floods.

Archeology has had some new developments since the 14C dates in Mesopotamia were taken.  First, by looking at the minerals in flood deposits, they can determine which river a flood came down.  Did Wooley's flood come down a different river than those at Kish?  Could be important.

Second, since the 1920s archeologists have learned how to use carbon dating.  Keeping the samples clean is paramount.  Also, bone collagen tends to show a younger age than other sources.  There has been a steady trend in dates toward younger readings.  At the current rate, in about 40 years, my 4260 BP date will become a good candidate for Noah's Flood.

Doug

[cormac mac airt]

2 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Make that five, maybe six floods.

Archeology has had some new developments since the 14C dates in Mesopotamia were taken.  First, by looking at the minerals in flood deposits, they can determine which river a flood came down.  Did Wooley's flood come down a different river than those at Kish?  Could be important.

Second, since the 1920s archeologists have learned how to use carbon dating.  Keeping the samples clean is paramount.  Also, bone collagen tends to show a younger age than other sources.  There has been a steady trend in dates toward younger readings.  At the current rate, in about 40 years, my 4260 BP date will become a good candidate for Noah's Flood.

Doug

And yet will still be irrelevant to the Jews since in being Canaanite in origin they’ve been in the Levant since circa 3500 BC. Calling anything in Mesopotamia “Noah’s Flood” therefore becomes moot, even at a younger date. 
 

cormac

[Doug1066]

26 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

And yet will still be irrelevant to the Jews since in being Canaanite in origin they’ve been in the Levant since circa 3500 BC. Calling anything in Mesopotamia “Noah’s Flood” therefore becomes moot, even at a younger date. 
 

cormac

True.  Probably earlier than 3500 BP.  But the original Noah didn't have anything to do with a flood:

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/zaw-2016-0022/html

 

Besides, it's starting to look like The Flood story was an amalgamation of flood stories.  At best, I can only pick the best candidate as there was no one FLOOD story.

Doug

Edited December 21, 2023 by Doug1066

[Ogbin]

without reading all posts.. Ron Wyatt found the real location of the resting place of Noah's Ark. you can find on youtube.

[cormac mac airt]

24 minutes ago, Ogbin said:

without reading all posts.. Ron Wyatt found the real location of the resting place of Noah's Ark. you can find on youtube.

No he didn’t but the fabrication continues anyway. The Durupinar Site is a geological formation and NOT the remains of a boat. 
 

cormac

[Ogbin]

23 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

No he didn’t but the fabrication continues anyway. The Durupinar Site is a geological formation and NOT the remains of a boat. 
 

cormac

 So you’ve seen it then? He used radar, metal detectors, testing, and put it all on video. Also he found the ballasts for the ship in the mountains all around, and Noah’s wife’s grave which had carvings on a stone of a rainbow, a family of 8, and a ship on a wave. The measurements of the site was exactly the same measurements of the boat described in the Genesis account.

[cormac mac airt]

21 minutes ago, Ogbin said:

 So you’ve seen it then? He used radar, metal detectors, testing, and put it all on video. Also he found the ballasts for the ship in the mountains all around, and Noah’s wife’s grave which had carvings on a stone of a rainbow, a family of 8, and a ship on a wave. The measurements of the site was exactly the same measurements of the boat described in the Genesis account.

Wyatt was neither an archaeologist not a geologist and his main method of investigation was similar to dowsing for water.   BTW wood DOES NOT fossilize in as short a span as 5000 years. Nice fiction though. 
 

cormac

[Ogbin]

8 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Wyatt was neither an archaeologist not a geologist and his main method of investigation was similar to dowsing for water.   BTW wood DOES NOT fossilize in as short a span as 5000 years. Nice fiction though. 
 

  I doubt that he was out there spending money just to play in the dirt. I am pretty sure the equipment he was using and the people he hired were really there in order to verify his findings. 
 

I have an idea he said.. let’s grab are Tonga toys, fly over to the Middle East and play in the sand, what do say? Sound like fun? 

[Ogbin]

2 minutes ago, Ogbin said:

9 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Wyatt was neither an archaeologist not a geologist and his main method of investigation was similar to dowsing for water.   BTW wood DOES NOT fossilize in as short a span as 5000 years. Nice fiction though. 
 

  I doubt that he was out there spending money just to play in the dirt. I am pretty sure the equipment he was using and the people he hired were really there in order to verify his findings. 
 

I have an idea he said.. let’s grab are Tonga toys, fly over to the Middle East and play in the sand, what do say? Sound like fun? 

Somehow my tablet put my response in with what I quoted.. not sure how to fix it, sry

[Doug1066]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:50 PM, Ogbin said:

without reading all posts.. Ron Wyatt found the real location of the resting place of Noah's Ark. you can find on youtube.

Ron Wyatt also said he found iron fittings on the Ark at Durupinar.  From an Early Bronze Age ship, yet.

I don't think we need to place much faith in Ron Wyatt.

Doug

[Doug1066]

Found an article about 14C dating of various ruins in Mesopotamia.  They managed to drill all the way through Eridu into river sediment below it and didn't find any flood evidence.

Doug

[cormac mac airt]

14 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Found an article about 14C dating of various ruins in Mesopotamia.  They managed to drill all the way through Eridu into river sediment below it and didn't find any flood evidence.

Doug

What was the article? 
 

cormac

[Doug1066]

22 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

What was the article? 
 

cormac

Hritz, Carrie, Jennifer Pournelle, Jennifer Smith, Badir Albadran, Bushra Majeed Issa and Adil Al-Handal.  Mid-Holocene dates for organic-rich sediment, palustrine shell, and charcoal from southern Iraq.  Cambridge University Press.  54(1).  https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/radiocarbon/article/midholocene-dates-for-organicrich-sediment-palustrine-shell-and-charcoal-from-southern-iraq/DC96E229A1ADE3230E868D529DCEF6E1 29 Dec. 2023.

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

Hritz, Carrie, Jennifer Pournelle, Jennifer Smith, Badir Albadran, Bushra Majeed Issa and Adil Al-Handal.  Mid-Holocene dates for organic-rich sediment, palustrine shell, and charcoal from southern Iraq.  Cambridge University Press.  54(1).  https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/radiocarbon/article/midholocene-dates-for-organicrich-sediment-palustrine-shell-and-charcoal-from-southern-iraq/DC96E229A1ADE3230E868D529DCEF6E1 29 Dec. 2023.

Oldest Date for pre-Eridu is 6845 +/- 45.  This particular set doesn't have anything except river sediments and shell for Eridu.  Looking to add to it from some other sets.

Doug

[Doug1066]

The Plot thickens:  the Ur Flood is estimated by Wooley to have occurred about 3500 BC at the end of the Ubaid Period (Ubaid4).

But 14C dates by Aqarwi in 1995 and 2001 indicate Ubaid4 ended about 4400 BC.

We need a 14C date for Wooley's flood.

 

Dates on two floods at Kish at about 2900 BC (Mallowan).

Shurrupak Flood (Mallowan) about 2850 BC.  Above Jemdet Nasr layer and below Early Dynastic.

Second Ur Flood (Mallowan) about 2700 BC.

Third Kish Flood about 2600 BC.  (Most-likely candidate for Noah's Flood; still need to refine this date.).

 

4260 BP flood on the Nile may have been the same flood as Kish3.  Did Manetho get one of the dates wrong?

What of two higher water-marks on the Temple of Karnak?

What about flood layers at Mohenjo Daro (60 feet below modern ground level).

 

How many of these are the same flood?

Doug

 

 

Edited January 3 by Doug1066

[Ogbin]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:25 PM, Doug1066 said:

Ron Wyatt also said he found iron fittings on the Ark at Durupinar.  From an Early Bronze Age ship, yet.

I don't think we need to place much faith in Ron Wyatt.

Doug

 I find that his science at the site of his discovery to be sound enough to believe. You say nothing of the other artifacts found around the site that back up his discovery. Also, your article you posted says nothing about his discovery of the resting place of Noah's Ark according to Wyatt. And how do you explain not only fossils of sea life on top of mountains. And there have been found fish in the top of a high volcano lake in Papua New Guinea, an untouched Eco system until a couple years ago. I'm sure one could go on if they wanted to research other clues on line that would support a world wide flood of Biblical proportions. And at the very least study the science from the discovery site and the other finding that cannot be denied.  

Peace, and happy new year.

[cormac mac airt]

2 hours ago, Ogbin said:

 I find that his science at the site of his discovery to be sound enough to believe. You say nothing of the other artifacts found around the site that back up his discovery. Also, your article you posted says nothing about his discovery of the resting place of Noah's Ark according to Wyatt. And how do you explain not only fossils of sea life on top of mountains. And there have been found fish in the top of a high volcano lake in Papua New Guinea, an untouched Eco system until a couple years ago. I'm sure one could go on if they wanted to research other clues on line that would support a world wide flood of Biblical proportions. And at the very least study the science from the discovery site and the other finding that cannot be denied.  

Peace, and happy new year.

There has been sea life for most of the last 3.5 billion years just as there have been geological upheavals that created the mountains. It’s really not rocket science. 
 

cormac

Edited January 3 by cormac mac airt

[Ogbin]

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

There has been sea life for most of the last 3.5 billion years just as there have been geological upheavals that created the mountains. It’s really not rocket science. 
 

cormac

Yes, If you don't believe the Bibles record of the six days of creation. For me it is all pre flood human and animal life. Pangaea was pre flood land mass. During the flood God devided the earth and made continents. But this takes faith to believe just as believing in our Very limited and always changing knowledge of how we think everything is through this new religion called science. 💧☂️🚢🌊🌈🌎