cormac mac airt Posted January 3 #151 Share Posted January 3 2 minutes ago, Ogbin said: Yes, If you don't believe the Bibles record of the six days of creation. For me it is all pre flood human and animal life. Pangaea was pre flood land mass. During the flood God devided the earth and made continents. But this takes faith to believe just as believing in our Very limited and always changing knowledge of how we think everything is through this new religion called science. 💧☂️🚢🌊🌈🌎 If ignorance is bliss you must be a very content person. You suffer from the same problem other Biblical literalists do, that being that you have no idea whatsoever what the Biblical texts mean IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGES THEY WERE WRITTEN IN! The word for “day” DOES NOT mean a 24 hour period of time. It refers to a non-specific period of time in which an event occurred. The rest of your post can be dismissed for lack of intelligence. cormac 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogbin Posted January 4 #152 Share Posted January 4 56 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said: If ignorance is bliss you must be a very content person. You suffer from the same problem other Biblical literalists do, that being that you have no idea whatsoever what the Biblical texts mean IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGES THEY WERE WRITTEN IN! The word for “day” DOES NOT mean a 24 hour period of time. It refers to a non-specific period of time in which an event occurred. The rest of your post can be dismissed for lack of intelligence. cormac I actually do study my bible, which does include word study. And in the Bible scripture backs up scripture. The word says that in Gods sight a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. Thank you for turning what i thought was just a light hearted back and forth into whatever you call these unnecessary words which actually show your ignorance in my understanding of the bible. Have a nice evening, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted January 4 #153 Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, Ogbin said: I actually do study my bible, which does include word study. And in the Bible scripture backs up scripture. The word says that in Gods sight a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. Thank you for turning what i thought was just a light hearted back and forth into whatever you call these unnecessary words which actually show your ignorance in my understanding of the bible. Have a nice evening, sir. Again, your research is USELESS. Try reading and researching the original texts IN THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGES. Anything less is merely you paying lip-service to what the original texts say and mean. cormac 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogbin Posted January 4 #154 Share Posted January 4 7 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said: Again, your research is USELESS. Try reading and researching the original texts IN THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGES. Anything less is merely you paying lip-service to what the original texts say and mean. cormac okay man.. 😕 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug1066 Posted January 6 Author #155 Share Posted January 6 (edited) On 1/3/2024 at 1:37 PM, Ogbin said: I find that his science at the site of his discovery to be sound enough to believe. You say nothing of the other artifacts found around the site that back up his discovery. Also, your article you posted says nothing about his discovery of the resting place of Noah's Ark according to Wyatt. And how do you explain not only fossils of sea life on top of mountains. And there have been found fish in the top of a high volcano lake in Papua New Guinea, an untouched Eco system until a couple years ago. I'm sure one could go on if they wanted to research other clues on line that would support a world wide flood of Biblical proportions. And at the very least study the science from the discovery site and the other finding that cannot be denied. Peace, and happy new year. What other artifacts? Wyatt claimed he found blackened rocks on Gebel el Lawz, proving that it was Mount Sinai. But he never brought a sample back for testing. Was the black coloring due to carbonization, or manganese? Carbonization supports his claim, manganese refutes it. Did Mr. Wyatt not want to put up the evidence? Why? Wyatt also said he found pillars, proving that the Gulf of Aqaba was where the crossing of the Red Sea took place. I believe he found some pillars, but they don't match the biblical description. What of pillars closer to Suez, like at the Temple of Hathor at el Khadim? They still stand and they're on top of a mountain named Gebel Ghorabi ("Mountain of God," that god being Hathor). Take a map and trace the route of the Exodus. It leads you right to Gebel el Khadim. Also leads you to the crossing site of the Red Sea: El Kubrit between the Bitter Lakes. When sea levels were high enough (Hyksos occupation), sea water flooded into the Bitter Lakes, creating the "Heroopolitc Red Sea" which stretched as far north as Lake Timsah and as far west as Ismailia. The wave-cut shorelines are still there. Wyatt depends for his Aqaba site on octogenarians being able to walk over 100 miles a day. Even Israeli soldiers couldn't do that along developed roads. And what of water depths off Aqaba? An ocean deep - 7000 feet. To hold back water at the depth, those winds would need to exceed the speed of sound. About his "chariot wheels." After 3200 years under warm salt water, what would be left of them that the torredoes (shipworms) didn't eat? He saw some concretions. Besides, any "chariot wheels" would have been buried under waste when they dug the Suez Canal. No. Wyatt doesn't present science - just pseudscience. Doug Edited January 6 by Doug1066 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug1066 Posted January 6 Author #156 Share Posted January 6 (edited) Score so far: three flood layers in Mesopotamia, composed of silty-clay. The most-recent (and largest) appears to have been laid down between the Jamdet Nasr culture and the Early Dynastic Period. Fits right in with a pre-existing culture having been destroyed and replaced by another one. The two earlier floods also appear to have seriously disrupted cultures of the time; they might also fill the bill for Noah's Flood. Also, a flood on the Nile about 4260 BP. Attested by Manetho and indicated by a mark on the Palermo Stone. Manetho refers to a flood during the Sed Festival of Semerket. Semerket is believed to have co-ruled with his predecessor, making a Sed Festival possible. Most of Lower Egypt went under water. Two water marks on the Tempe of Karnak indicate higher flood levels. Archeologists have dismissed them as doodling by the builders. Manetho refers to another flood about 300 years earlier at the beginning of the First Dynasty. Note: Second Dynasty dates sometimes precede First Dynasty dates. These two could be the same flood. Probable floods on the Nile about 5800, 6000 and 6200. May have produced flooding in Mesopotamia or may not have. About 15 floods on the Nile between the beginning of the Younger Dryas (Wild Nile stage) and the beginning of the Mid-Holocene. Appears the two smaller Mesopotamian floods were not mega-floods. Maybe 100-year floods? C14 dates mostly not reliable and pottery dates even worse. These were mostly recorded during the early development of C14 dating and numerous mistakes were made. Dates obtained after 1970 are generally reliable. Northeast Africa and the Near East go through a 40,000-year climate cycle. Each cycle is composed of 32,000 years of hyper-arid conditions, followed by an 8000-year wet period. The 4260 BP flood occurred right at the end of the wet period. Yellow Nile went dry to become Wadi Howar about 4000 BP. A megaflood apparently hit the Fayoum Depression just as the Fayoum B culture was giving way to Fayoum A. Haven't been able to get a good date on it, but it appears to have occurred at the beginning of the Early Bronze Age in Egypt. Doug Edited January 6 by Doug1066 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted January 7 #157 Share Posted January 7 (edited) On 1/3/2024 at 2:37 PM, Ogbin said: I find that his science at the site of his discovery to be sound enough to believe. You say nothing of the other artifacts found around the site that back up his discovery. Also, your article you posted says nothing about his discovery of the resting place of Noah's Ark according to Wyatt. And how do you explain not only fossils of sea life on top of mountains. And there have been found fish in the top of a high volcano lake in Papua New Guinea, an untouched Eco system until a couple years ago. I'm sure one could go on if they wanted to research other clues on line that would support a world wide flood of Biblical proportions. And at the very least study the science from the discovery site and the other finding that cannot be denied. Peace, and happy new year. It's a marine eroded syncline. The walls are limonite, iron ore and wood can't turn into iron ore and the "iron brackets" is goethite another form of iron oxide deposits. Fish are found in mountain lakes from stocking by humans. Show me link that there is a untouched mountain lake that has naturally occurring fish. Fish fossils in mountains come from continental collisions creating a orogeny AKA uplift and folding. Pangea broke up a long time ago. Not because of a flood though. It was the formation of the CAMP Mid-Atlantic Ridge which broke it up, which left some cool volcanic formations in PA and Maryland. Wyatt was a nurse. He never studied geology or archaeology. Edited January 7 by Piney Why am I bothering...... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug1066 Posted January 8 Author #158 Share Posted January 8 On 1/3/2024 at 7:01 PM, Ogbin said: I actually do study my bible, which does include word study. And in the Bible scripture backs up scripture. The word says that in Gods sight a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. Thank you for turning what i thought was just a light hearted back and forth into whatever you call these unnecessary words which actually show your ignorance in my understanding of the bible. Have a nice evening, sir. Actually, the archeological record in Mesopotamia begins about 6000 years ago, so in that respect, you're not far off the mark. Figure it this way: Adam and Eve - New Stone Age hunter/gatherers Caine - worker of metal - Early Bronze Age Flood destroys Ubaid (stoneage culture). New Bronze Age culture develops on top of Ubaid sites. Another small flood destroys the new Bronze Age site. A new Bronze Age culture (Jemdat nasr) develops on top of flood deposits. Noah's Flood destroys Jemdat nasr sites. Dynastic cultures develop on top of Jemdat nasr sites. The physical evidence for THE FLOOD has been compiled by Mallowan of Cambridge University: two floods at Kish about 2900 BC. a much larger, more violent flood about 2600 BC. A similar deposit at Shurrupak dated about 2850 BC (Note 250-year discrepancy.). I think it fairly safe to say that the 2600BC/2850BC flood was Noah's Flood. Doug 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted January 8 #159 Share Posted January 8 2 hours ago, Doug1066 said: Actually, the archeological record in Mesopotamia begins about 6000 years ago, so in that respect, you're not far off the mark. Figure it this way: Adam and Eve - New Stone Age hunter/gatherers Caine - worker of metal - Early Bronze Age Flood destroys Ubaid (stoneage culture). New Bronze Age culture develops on top of Ubaid sites. Another small flood destroys the new Bronze Age site. A new Bronze Age culture (Jemdat nasr) develops on top of flood deposits. Noah's Flood destroys Jemdat nasr sites. Dynastic cultures develop on top of Jemdat nasr sites. The physical evidence for THE FLOOD has been compiled by Mallowan of Cambridge University: two floods at Kish about 2900 BC. a much larger, more violent flood about 2600 BC. A similar deposit at Shurrupak dated about 2850 BC (Note 250-year discrepancy.). I think it fairly safe to say that the 2600BC/2850BC flood was Noah's Flood. Doug I think the Garden of Eden story was a parable supporting the nomadic/ hunter-gatherer lifestyle. As of Cain being involved in metalwork? Hebrews were terrible at it and employed other ethnic groups to make and fix their stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted January 8 #160 Share Posted January 8 2 hours ago, Doug1066 said: Actually, the archeological record in Mesopotamia begins about 6000 years ago, so in that respect, you're not far off the mark. Figure it this way: Adam and Eve - New Stone Age hunter/gatherers Caine - worker of metal - Early Bronze Age Flood destroys Ubaid (stoneage culture). New Bronze Age culture develops on top of Ubaid sites. Another small flood destroys the new Bronze Age site. A new Bronze Age culture (Jemdat nasr) develops on top of flood deposits. Noah's Flood destroys Jemdat nasr sites. Dynastic cultures develop on top of Jemdat nasr sites. The physical evidence for THE FLOOD has been compiled by Mallowan of Cambridge University: two floods at Kish about 2900 BC. a much larger, more violent flood about 2600 BC. A similar deposit at Shurrupak dated about 2850 BC (Note 250-year discrepancy.). I think it fairly safe to say that the 2600BC/2850BC flood was Noah's Flood. Doug I wouldn’t say that as the site of Jarmo, Iraq dates back to 7000 BC which is far older than 6000 BP/4000 BC. Several other sites also predate 4000 BC. Sure if you’re proposing that Noah’s Flood was a composite of multiple floods over centuries, contrary to the Biblical claim. cormac 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted January 8 #161 Share Posted January 8 58 minutes ago, Piney said: I think the Garden of Eden story was a parable supporting the nomadic/ hunter-gatherer lifestyle. It was probably based on classical accounts of the Hanging Garden of Babylon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted January 8 #162 Share Posted January 8 34 minutes ago, Antigonos said: It was probably based on classical accounts of the Hanging Garden of Babylon. I think it predates it. When the rest of the Canaanites started farming and building towns the Hebrews stayed mountain herders and nomads and probably resisted the controlled lifestyle. Farming is harder than nomadic gathering and people are less under control of their towns and crops. On top of every weed mentioned is "disturbance growth" which happens only when you clear land and sow crops. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted January 8 #163 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, Piney said: I think it predates it. When the rest of the Canaanites started farming and building towns the Hebrews stayed mountain herders and nomads and probably resisted the controlled lifestyle. Farming is harder than nomadic gathering and people are less under control of their towns and crops. On top of every weed mentioned is "disturbance growth" which happens only when you clear land and sow crops. I never thought of farming as necessarily being more difficult before, but it makes sense. Edited January 8 by Antigonos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted January 8 #164 Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, Piney said: I think it predates it. When the rest of the Canaanites started farming and building towns the Hebrews stayed mountain herders and nomads and probably resisted the controlled lifestyle. Farming is harder than nomadic gathering and people are less under control of their towns and crops. On top of every weed mentioned is "disturbance growth" which happens only when you clear land and sow crops. The Garden of Eden would have greatly preceded the Hanging Gardens of Babylon as well as being irrelevant to the early Hebrews since the story is Mesopotamian in origin whereas the Hebrews are Canaanite from circa 3500 BC. The Hebrews essentially stole and reworked a Mesopotamian story to add to their alleged and erroneous “history”. cormac 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted January 8 #165 Share Posted January 8 44 minutes ago, Antigonos said: I never thought of farming as necessarily being more difficult before, but it makes sense. People started farming because they had to. Not because they wanted to. Gathering is easier. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug1066 Posted January 9 Author #166 Share Posted January 9 On 1/8/2024 at 10:34 AM, Piney said: I think the Garden of Eden story was a parable supporting the nomadic/ hunter-gatherer lifestyle. As of Cain being involved in metalwork? Hebrews were terrible at it and employed other ethnic groups to make and fix their stuff. I have seen some very convincing arguments that the Garden of Eden was the marshes east of Eridu. "The river divides into four heads..." The problem: there are five heads: Euphrates, Hidekel/Tigris, Karun, Pishon/Wadi al-Batin and the Shatt al Arab. If one uses clues from the rest of the Bible, but leaving out Genesis, one can find another Eden located in Arabia - about 50 miles north of a town named: Aden. The Bible does lots of things in duplicate - one version for the Kingdom of Benjamin and another for the Kingdom of Judah. The Kenites were the craftsmen who built the Ark of the Covenant. Iron making was a Hittite invention. Don't know about bronze. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug1066 Posted January 9 Author #167 Share Posted January 9 On 1/8/2024 at 11:25 AM, cormac mac airt said: Sure if you’re proposing that Noah’s Flood was a composite of multiple floods over centuries, contrary to the Biblical claim. That's exactly what I'm proposing. Two minor floods at Kish about 2900 BC. A monstrous flood at Kish about 2600 BC. And Wooley's flood, which is older, but probably not as old as 3500 BC. The flood at Shurrupak was probably one of the floods already mentioned. The weather system that produced the 4260 BP flood on the Nile, probably didn't produce very much in the Mesopotamian Basin. There was a possible flood about 3200 BC, but the evidence is mostly circumstantial. I don't know of any direct evidence. The best candidate for Noah's Flood is the one at Kish about 2600 BC. But all of them could be part of the legend. The 6000-year figure has only to do with the flood stories and results of test coring done at the site of the ruins. Yes. There are older ruins, but they're not part of the story. Cores taken at Ur and Eridu reach into sapropel layers (organic oozes), suggesting that this was under water during the Altithermal. At that time (c. 9500 to 5500 BP), the Arctic Ocean was ice-free. Sapropel layers formed in the Mediterranean and Persian Gulf at that time (Is there a connection?). Be interesting to compare what was happening in the Gulf with what was going on with ancient civilizations. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted January 9 #168 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Doug1066 said: That's exactly what I'm proposing. Two minor floods at Kish about 2900 BC. A monstrous flood at Kish about 2600 BC. And Wooley's flood, which is older, but probably not as old as 3500 BC. The flood at Shurrupak was probably one of the floods already mentioned. The weather system that produced the 4260 BP flood on the Nile, probably didn't produce very much in the Mesopotamian Basin. There was a possible flood about 3200 BC, but the evidence is mostly circumstantial. I don't know of any direct evidence. The best candidate for Noah's Flood is the one at Kish about 2600 BC. But all of them could be part of the legend. The 6000-year figure has only to do with the flood stories and results of test coring done at the site of the ruins. Yes. There are older ruins, but they're not part of the story. Cores taken at Ur and Eridu reach into sapropel layers (organic oozes), suggesting that this was under water during the Altithermal. At that time (c. 9500 to 5500 BP), the Arctic Ocean was ice-free. Sapropel layers formed in the Mediterranean and Persian Gulf at that time (Is there a connection?). Be interesting to compare what was happening in the Gulf with what was going on with ancient civilizations. Doug How do you reconcile that with Jeffrey Rose's 2010 paper New Light on Human Prehistory in the Arabo-Persian Gulf Oasis where he shows the Persian Gulf only being 5 meters ASL by 4000 BC/6000 BP whereas both Ur and Eridu are above even that elevation. That would suggest that the cores taken from those sites PREDATE your claimed "Noah's Flood" IMO and are therefore irrelevant to same. cormac Edited January 9 by cormac mac airt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug1066 Posted January 9 Author #169 Share Posted January 9 On 1/8/2024 at 11:25 AM, cormac mac airt said: I wouldn’t say that as the site of Jarmo, Iraq dates back to 7000 BC which is far older than 6000 BP/4000 BC. Several other sites also predate 4000 BC. The dating for the Mesopotamian Basin is a mess. Errors of hundreds of years are common. There are six different 14C chronologies and a pottery-based chronology. Most of the 14C dates were taken during the early development of carbon dating and a lot of precautions against contamination weren't taken, just because nobody knew you had to take those precautions. But that rendered most dates taken before 1970 erroneous.(mostly too old). The solution has been to date things according to where they fall in the cultural development succession and not even bother with absolute dates. Noah's Flood falls at the Jemdat nasr/Early First Dynasty boundary. The two lesser floods were about 300 years earlier and Wooley's (probably misdated) flood was about 600 years before that. Still a lot of work to do. That maybe-flood about 5800 BP needs to be checked out. And the synchronicity of Nile vs. Mesopotamian flooding needs to be checked. At any rate, there were lots of floods. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug1066 Posted January 9 Author #170 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 11 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said: How do you reconcile that with Jeffrey Rose's 2010 paper New Light on Human Prehistory in the Arabo-Persian Gulf Oasis where he shows the Persian Gulf only being 5 meters ASL by 4000 BC/6000 BP whereas both Ur and Eridu are above even that elevation. That would suggest that the cores taken from those sites PREDATE your claimed "Noah's Flood" IMO and are therefore irrelevant to same. cormac Wooley shows the bottom of the flood layer at an elevation of 1 meter asl. The greatest height of the Persian Gulf transgression occurred about 5650 BP at about one meter above current. That would make Wooley's Ubaid layer exactly at sea level. I haven't read Rose's paper. I'll have to check it out. But if the Gulf was 5 meters higher 5650 BP, then the Ubaids were living in 18 feet of water or Wooley's topography was way off. Doug Edited January 9 by Doug1066 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted January 9 #171 Share Posted January 9 9 minutes ago, Doug1066 said: The dating for the Mesopotamian Basin is a mess. Errors of hundreds of years are common. There are six different 14C chronologies and a pottery-based chronology. Most of the 14C dates were taken during the early development of carbon dating and a lot of precautions against contamination weren't taken, just because nobody knew you had to take those precautions. But that rendered most dates taken before 1970 erroneous.(mostly too old). The solution has been to date things according to where they fall in the cultural development succession and not even bother with absolute dates. Noah's Flood falls at the Jemdat nasr/Early First Dynasty boundary. The two lesser floods were about 300 years earlier and Wooley's (probably misdated) flood was about 600 years before that. Still a lot of work to do. That maybe-flood about 5800 BP needs to be checked out. And the synchronicity of Nile vs. Mesopotamian flooding needs to be checked. At any rate, there were lots of floods. Doug The Jemdat Nasr/First Dynasty period IS NOT 2850 - 2600 which is what you claimed for a timeframe of Noah's Flood in an earlier post. Seems you are all over the place. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug1066 Posted January 9 Author #172 Share Posted January 9 2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said: The Jemdat Nasr/First Dynasty period IS NOT 2850 - 2600 which is what you claimed for a timeframe of Noah's Flood in an earlier post. Seems you are all over the place. cormac Which chronology are you using and how accurate is it? Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted January 9 #173 Share Posted January 9 7 minutes ago, Doug1066 said: Which chronology are you using and how accurate is it Doug An absolute chronology for early Egypt using radiocarbon dating and Bayesian statistical modelling (2013) Michael Dee1 , David Wengrow2 , Andrew Shortland3 , Alice Stevenson4 , Fiona Brock1 , Linus Girdland Flink5 and Christopher Bronk Ramsey1 1 RLAHA, University of Oxford, Dyson Perrins Building, South Parks Road, Oxford, UK 2 Institute of Archaeology, University College London, London, UK 3 Centre for ArchaeologicaYoul and Forensic Analysis, Cranfield University, Swindon, UK 4 Petrie Museum of Egyptian Archaeology, University College London, London, UK 5 Natural History Museum, London, UK You tell me. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted January 9 #174 Share Posted January 9 http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.ht The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Book of Genesis share several interesting similarities. Both stories include a great flood that destroys most of humanity, as well as a hero who is warned about the flood and instructed to build a large boat to save himself, his family, and the world's animals. https://www.icr.org/article/noah-flood-gilgamesh/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted January 9 #175 Share Posted January 9 Was Noah's Ark ROUND? 3,700-year-old clay tablet reveals giant boat was made out of reeds and bitumen https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2545494/Was-Noahs-Ark-ROUND-3-700-year-old-clay-tablet-reveals-boat-coracle-reeds-bitumen.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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