Britain could rejoin EU as ‘associate member’ in planned overhaul by France and Germany

[pellinore]

At last, some good news:

Britain could rejoin the European Union as an “associate member” under plans for the bloc’s dramatic expansion drawn up by France and Germany.

The country would be expected to contribute to the EU’s annual budget and be governed by the European Court of Justice in exchange for “participation” in its Single Market.

The plan will be officially unveiled on Tuesday afternoon as Sir Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, meets France’s Emmanuel Macron in Paris.

Sir Keir has said he would prioritise getting a “much better deal for the UK” as part of a review of the post-Brexit trade deal due in 2026 if he wins the next General Election.

Britain could rejoin EU as ‘associate member’ in planned overhaul by France and Germany (archive.ph)

Edited September 19 by pellinore

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, pellinore said:

if he wins the next General Election

How are his chances?

[L.A.T.1961]

I see any pre election policy move towards the EU by Starmer in the same light as Teresa May's “dementia tax” that reduced her massive poll lead to virtually nothing on election day. 

She thought she could get away with anything at the time, apparently so does Starmer.

[pellinore]

14 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

I see any pre election policy move towards the EU by Starmer in the same light as Teresa May's “dementia tax” that reduced her massive poll lead to virtually nothing on election day. 

She thought she could get away with anything at the time, apparently so does Starmer.

You're a sensible person, LAT. Do you honestly think Brexit has been a success? (Don't say, it could have been but was sold out by Remainers, etc. Anything could be anything, the moon could have been made of cheese but it wasn't). We have left the EU, so Brexit has been delivered as per the referendum question. Do you really think it has been a success? By any measure? I'm genuinely puzzled why anyone looking at the reality still thinks it is worth holding on to.

[pellinore]

16 hours ago, Abramelin said:

How are his chances?

He has to tread a careful line not to antagonise the majority in the UK who want to rejoin the EU and the vocal minority (mostly the working class Red Wall) who think we should declare war on Europe and get it done properly. The Lib Dems will snaffle up the former group and Reform will get the head-bangers if he gets it wrong. If he doesn't get elected the UK is economically doomed- more austerity, more inflation, and everyone will have a further fall in living standards.

Edited September 20 by pellinore

[L.A.T.1961]

3 hours ago, pellinore said:

You're a sensible person, LAT. Do you honestly think Brexit has been a success? (Don't say, it could have been but was sold out by Remainers, etc. Anything could be anything, the moon could have been made of cheese but it wasn't). We have left the EU, so Brexit has been delivered as per the referendum question. Do you really think it has been a success? By any measure? I'm genuinely puzzled why anyone looking at the reality still thinks it is worth holding on to.

Success or failure can be measured by many yardsticks  there has certainly been no huge crash as widely forecast. The UK is now not controlled so much by the EU political group think. Our own government will have to do the job we pay them to do. 

The UK is now in a position to cherry pick what areas of EU activities it wants to participate in, like the recent science announcement which we now get with a guaranteed rebate if the UK does not receive the amount of investment in UK science it has given the EU.  

UK is not paying, via EU funds, for the conversion to electric cars at VW or Mercedes. We did not pay into health funds for the EU to roll out covid vaccines or brow beaten into sharing our first to market jab. 

Not sure exactly how much this all adds up to but the number would be measured in billions. With the UK out its Germany that's taking a huge hit with these costs and their own citizens are aware and not chuffed.

These savings far outweigh the cost of doing more paperwork at customs checks due to custom union changes.

The EU will also likely drop the need for high local content when moving goods as it costs them more than us, watch this space. 

So plenty of big benefits. But few, if any, talked of in the press. 

[pellinore]

9 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

Success or failure can be measured by many yardsticks  there has certainly been no huge crash as widely forecast. The UK is now not controlled so much by the EU political group think. Our own government will have to do the job we pay them to do. 

The UK is now in a position to cherry pick what areas of EU activities it wants to participate in, like the recent science announcement which we now get with a guaranteed rebate if the UK does not receive the amount of investment in UK science it has given the EU.  

UK is not paying, via EU funds, for the conversion to electric cars at VW or Mercedes. We did not pay into health funds for the EU to roll out covid vaccines or brow beaten into sharing our first to market jab. 

Not sure exactly how much this all adds up to but the number would be measured in billions. With the UK out its Germany that's taking a huge hit with these costs and their own citizens are aware and not chuffed.

These savings far outweigh the cost of doing more paperwork at customs checks due to custom union changes.

The EU will also likely drop the need for high local content when moving goods as it costs them more than us, watch this space. 

So plenty of big benefits. But few, if any, talked of in the press. 

Avoiding a huge crash is hardly a "benefit", is it?

The science announcement gives us a watered-down version of what we had a few years ago.

Not being part of the EU multi-billion move to EVs is a benefit? You think we will be able to compete with the EU, USA and China?

Outweigh the cost of paperwork at the borders?-  we have repeatedly failed to implement customs checks because of the cost- probably hundreds of billions.

The Deals with Oz and NZ and Japan and CPTTP membership have been calculated to be worth a fraction of the EU market we once had.

Why would the government not share the big benefits with the press? The Express, Mail and Telegraph are right-wing and Brexit supporting- why would they not be trumpeting the benefits to us all? That sounds self-defeating, especially since the polls consistently show Bregret amongst the majority of the population.

Thanks for replying, though since you argue on financial benefits alone, I think the concept of imposing trade barriers would have ruled that out from the very beginning.

[L.A.T.1961]

27 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Avoiding a huge crash is hardly a "benefit", is it?

The science announcement gives us a watered-down version of what we had a few years ago.

Not being part of the EU multi-billion move to EVs is a benefit? You think we will be able to compete with the EU, USA and China?

Outweigh the cost of paperwork at the borders?-  we have repeatedly failed to implement customs checks because of the cost- probably hundreds of billions.

The Deals with Oz and NZ and Japan and CPTTP membership have been calculated to be worth a fraction of the EU market we once had.

Why would the government not share the big benefits with the press? The Express, Mail and Telegraph are right-wing and Brexit supporting- why would they not be trumpeting the benefits to us all? That sounds self-defeating, especially since the polls consistently show Bregret amongst the majority of the population.

Thanks for replying, though since you argue on financial benefits alone, I think the concept of imposing trade barriers would have ruled that out from the very beginning.

The science agreement gives UK the exact same access to EU funds as any other participating member, we just have a rebate option not available when the UK was in the EU. 

There may be a global benefit to move to EV's but why should the UK pay for the German, French, Italian car industries when they refused to build car plants in the UK when we were EU members.....

There is no such thing as financial benefits alone. If the UK can pick and choose what it spends money on, without following group EU policy, then the improvements to the economy will increase GDP and Tax Take with more money to spend on NHS or road building, this benefits the individual.

Many who voted for brexit were aware of this potential.

Then it is down to UK gov to tailor policies of a new UK to an ever changing world. 

And at least the UK population can eject its own Governments it doesn't like.

Try getting rid of Ursula von der Leyen backed by the Germans .

Edited September 20 by L.A.T.1961

[Electric Scooter]

23 hours ago, pellinore said:

At last, some good news:

Britain could rejoin the European Union as an “associate member” under plans for the bloc’s dramatic expansion drawn up by France and Germany.

The country would be expected to contribute to the EU’s annual budget and be governed by the European Court of Justice in exchange for “participation” in its Single Market.

The plan will be officially unveiled on Tuesday afternoon as Sir Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, meets France’s Emmanuel Macron in Paris.

Sir Keir has said he would prioritise getting a “much better deal for the UK” as part of a review of the post-Brexit trade deal due in 2026 if he wins the next General Election.

Britain could rejoin EU as ‘associate member’ in planned overhaul by France and Germany (archive.ph)

What a complete disgrace. If we look at all other free trade agreements then where is one side required to pay the other an access fee?

I propose Britain creates an alternative to the EU - `The European Free Trade and Mutual Defence Zone`. An agreement which does not try to force political alignment between its member states, does not require them to pay a membership fee, and doesn`t have the free movement of people.

We would be the first member but then we need to work on luring in other European states. Italy would be easy, perhaps Hungary and Greece too. As countries join the remaining states will start to question why they are putting up with the EU. Then they will start to join it crumbling and eventually dismantling the EU.

[pellinore]

2 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

The science agreement gives UK the exact same access to EU funds as any other participating member, we just have a rebate option not available when the UK was in the EU. 

There may be a global benefit to move to EV's but why should the UK pay for the German, French, Italian car industries when they refused to build car plants in the UK when we were EU members.....

There is no such thing as financial benefits alone. If the UK can pick and choose what it spends money on, without following group EU policy, then the improvements to the economy will increase GDP and Tax Take with more money to spend on NHS or road building, this benefits the individual.

Many who voted for brexit were aware of this potential.

Then it is down to UK gov to tailor policies of a new UK to an ever changing world. 

And at least the UK population can eject its own Governments it doesn't like.

Try getting rid of Ursula von der Leyen backed by the Germans .

Interesting. What have you personally gained from Brexit, not considering the adverse effects on the wider economy and increased immigration, which we will probably never agree on? I believe I have lost from it- less choice of food in supermarkets, higher prices generally, reading xenophobic rants in the Mail and Express which are now accepted, and I have lost the ability to go to live in France, Greece or Spain for a few years.

How have you personally benefited?

[itsnotoutthere]

1 hour ago, pellinore said:

Interesting. What have you personally gained from Brexit, not considering the adverse effects on the wider economy and increased immigration, which we will probably never agree on? I believe I have lost from it- less choice of food in supermarkets, higher prices generally, reading xenophobic rants in the Mail and Express which are now accepted, and I have lost the ability to go to live in France, Greece or Spain for a few years.

How have you personally benefited?

Don't know if you've noticed but the whole of Europe & the US is suffering the side effects of increased & uncontrolled immigration :-

 

 

And it's nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with a global agenda by unelected elites & if you can't see that by now then there's no help for you.

( "I have lost the ability to go to live in France, Greece or Spain for a few years." ....wouldn't worry, Europe is finished anyway ).

Edited September 20 by itsnotoutthere

[Electric Scooter]

2 hours ago, pellinore said:

Interesting. What have you personally gained from Brexit, not considering the adverse effects on the wider economy and increased immigration, which we will probably never agree on? I believe I have lost from it- less choice of food in supermarkets, higher prices generally, reading xenophobic rants in the Mail and Express which are now accepted, and I have lost the ability to go to live in France, Greece or Spain for a few years.

How have you personally benefited?

Are you now saying you live in the UK?

Your views point out correlations between your current displeasures and Brexit, but correlations are not causation. As has been pointed out repeatedly the problems going on affect the planet. Considering the last couple of decades they are the banking crises, coronavirus, and Russo-Ukrainian conflict.

[itsnotoutthere]

"I have lost the ability to go to live in France, Greece or Spain for a few years"

Are you suggesting that anybody that lives outside the EU cannot go and live in these countries? Or in fact are you just saying it now involves more paperwork?

[OpenMindedSceptic]

I'm enjoying Brexit. We're still too close to the EU on areas like ECHR and the £100Bn payout since leaving but UK has done well, better than EU in many resects. The migrant situation particularly in Italy currently promises to push the EU apart further, Poland has had enough. The Germans are struggling with the green agenda. The faceless MEPs continue to drink deeply from the gravy train, ignoring the populace of the EU, cosying up to opaque organisations like WEF, UN, CDC... who have no interest in antyhign other than power and money. 

Personally I turned my businesses into the stream and made more than ever. If Veer Starmer gets in then I'll change again... remaining agile and nimble in the face of abuses of power from both Tory and Labour is the key. Both Rishi and Veer are so remote to the lives of the people they say they represent so it wouldn't surprise me to see Veer ignore the referendum and collapse at the altar of the EU.

[Electric Scooter]

1 minute ago, itsnotoutthere said:

"I have lost the ability to go to live in France, Greece or Spain for a few years"

Are you suggesting that anybody that lives outside the EU cannot go and live in these countries? Or in fact are you just saying it now involves more paperwork?

Yeah, it means he now has to fill in forms instead of just being able to hop on a train lol.

I`ll let him into a little secret and that is people do not require a passport to travel from the UK to the Republic of Ireland. Due to past agreements still in place you can even live and work over there.

You might not like it though. Its mostly farming so prepare for the waft of cow manure.

[pellinore]

14 hours ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

I'm enjoying Brexit. We're still too close to the EU on areas like ECHR and the £100Bn payout since leaving but UK has done well, better than EU in many resects. The migrant situation particularly in Italy currently promises to push the EU apart further, Poland has had enough. The Germans are struggling with the green agenda. The faceless MEPs continue to drink deeply from the gravy train, ignoring the populace of the EU, cosying up to opaque organisations like WEF, UN, CDC... who have no interest in antyhign other than power and money. 

Personally I turned my businesses into the stream and made more than ever. If Veer Starmer gets in then I'll change again... remaining agile and nimble in the face of abuses of power from both Tory and Labour is the key. Both Rishi and Veer are so remote to the lives of the people they say they represent so it wouldn't surprise me to see Veer ignore the referendum and collapse at the altar of the EU.

14 hours ago, Electric Scooter said:

Yeah, it means he now has to fill in forms instead of just being able to hop on a train lol.

I`ll let him into a little secret and that is people do not require a passport to travel from the UK to the Republic of Ireland. Due to past agreements still in place you can even live and work over there.

You might not like it though. Its mostly farming so prepare for the waft of cow manure.

This is what Brexit means to us in the UK:

 

[Electric Scooter]

7 minutes ago, pellinore said:

This is what Brexit means to us in the UK:

 

That video is full of biases, outright lies, and is politically motivated.

The biggest lie is that Brexit has increased food prices. Its the Russian war which has increased food prices and it affects all western nations. The next biggest lie is that the EU has benefitted from the UK leaving. It hasn`t at all. It has hugely disadvantaged Germany, Italy, France, and even Ireland. All of which have been left with a larger contribution fee to fund the development of Poland and other backwards member states.

You love affair with the EU is bizarre and I`m confused why you don`t just move there, you would be happier.

[pellinore]

19 hours ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Personally I turned my businesses into the stream and made more than ever. 

4 hours ago, Electric Scooter said:

That video is full of biases, outright lies, and is politically motivated.The biggest lie is that Brexit has increased food prices.

If you watched the video at the place I stopped it, you will see and hear Rees Mogg explaining that to implement our part of the WA (border checks) will increase inflation over what it already is. How can either of you say Brexit hasn't harmed our economy? It has, because the EU implemented their part on Day 1. As soon as we implement our part, it will do huge damage- but not doing so will contiue the imbalace where UK exports are checked, but incoming EU goods are not checked. (OMS obviously doesn't really run any businesses, because if he did, he would understand all this).

[Electric Scooter]

37 minutes ago, pellinore said:

If you watched the video at the place I stopped it, you will see and hear Rees Mogg explaining that to implement our part of the WA (border checks) will increase inflation over what it already is. How can either of you say Brexit hasn't harmed our economy? It has, because the EU implemented their part on Day 1. As soon as we implement our part, it will do huge damage- but not doing so will contiue the imbalace where UK exports are checked, but incoming EU goods are not checked. (OMS obviously doesn't really run any businesses, because if he did, he would understand all this).

I also know the women speaking in it is a Labour MP.

Not biased now is it.

[pellinore]

28 minutes ago, Electric Scooter said:

I also know the women speaking in it is a Labour MP.

Not biased now is it.

Liz Webster was Lib Dem last year, has she switched Party? She is always critical of Labour.

[L.A.T.1961]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:37 PM, pellinore said:

Interesting. What have you personally gained from Brexit, not considering the adverse effects on the wider economy and increased immigration, which we will probably never agree on? I believe I have lost from it- less choice of food in supermarkets, higher prices generally, reading xenophobic rants in the Mail and Express which are now accepted, and I have lost the ability to go to live in France, Greece or Spain for a few years.

How have you personally benefited?

First gain was the look on the faces of various EU bureaucrats after the vote. Those who were convinced that threats would halt the leave campaign in its tracks and then discovered it didn't. 

Not realising the consequences and not seriously negotiating with Cameron, when he ask for changes, was on a par with Germany buying gas from the Russians or not spending on NATO.

But I did not expect a big quick change. When the UK became a member of the common market the business run by my family saw no financial improvement with the change. As time went on and the EU arrived there was still no benefit and if there is no benefit there is nothing to lose, just a moving of deckchairs. 

The UK is more flexible to adjust various policy's but it needs a Government decisive enough to do it and despite a majority the split in the Tory party between pro European and those happy with the idea of an independent UK halts almost all changes. 

So I have not personally gained but that was never my motivation. I did not expect a bigger state pension or free petrol. Maybe my mistake was not to vote for Corbyn  

 

[pellinore]

5 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

The UK is more flexible to adjust various policy's but it needs a Government decisive enough to do it and despite a majority the split in the Tory party between pro European and those happy with the idea of an independent UK halts almost all changes. 

So I have not personally gained but that was never my motivation. I did not expect a bigger state pension or free petrol. Maybe my mistake was not to vote for Corbyn  

 

Well, we have both lost and things probably won't change in our lifetimes.

Labour has proposed a number of measures  including an agreement on veterinary standards; mutual recognition of conformity assessments and professional qualifications; improved labour mobility arrangements; and a security pact, but I doubt the EU will be receptive.

Labour is pinning its hopes on the review of the UK-EU trade deal (TCA), scheduled for 2025 or 2026. David Lammy says they will use this to go through the agreement “page-by-page, seeking ways to remove barriers and improve opportunities for business”.

The EU considers the TCA ‘a very good agreement’. It favours trade in goods (where it has a surplus with the UK) over trade in services (where it has a deficit) and balances the interests of 27 member states. They don't want to start Brexit up again, they have more pressing priorities like energy, EV production and Ukraine.

I'm interested in your comment "The UK is more flexible to adjust various policy's" (but won't). This is on par with "Brexit hasn't been done right" or "We need to diverge more"- in other words, empty words. What could we do with Brexit that we haven't? What needs to be more flexible?  I'm interested, because when you get past these slogans, manufacturers don't want to diverge. They want conformity and certainty so they can get investment and sell stuff. Which is why we kept the CE Mark as our safety standard and why UKREACH (chemical standards) will be an exact image of EUREACH.

Since you are a Brexit supporter, and you actually think about things, go on: how will flexibility and opportunity to diverge on standards be beneficial to the UK? Because all I can see is that those are the very things that will damage the UK even more.

[L.A.T.1961]

On 9/23/2023 at 4:41 AM, pellinore said:

Well, we have both lost and things probably won't change in our lifetimes.

Labour has proposed a number of measures  including an agreement on veterinary standards; mutual recognition of conformity assessments and professional qualifications; improved labour mobility arrangements; and a security pact, but I doubt the EU will be receptive.

Labour is pinning its hopes on the review of the UK-EU trade deal (TCA), scheduled for 2025 or 2026. David Lammy says they will use this to go through the agreement “page-by-page, seeking ways to remove barriers and improve opportunities for business”.

The EU considers the TCA ‘a very good agreement’. It favours trade in goods (where it has a surplus with the UK) over trade in services (where it has a deficit) and balances the interests of 27 member states. They don't want to start Brexit up again, they have more pressing priorities like energy, EV production and Ukraine.

I'm interested in your comment "The UK is more flexible to adjust various policy's" (but won't). This is on par with "Brexit hasn't been done right" or "We need to diverge more"- in other words, empty words. What could we do with Brexit that we haven't? What needs to be more flexible?  I'm interested, because when you get past these slogans, manufacturers don't want to diverge. They want conformity and certainty so they can get investment and sell stuff. Which is why we kept the CE Mark as our safety standard and why UKREACH (chemical standards) will be an exact image of EUREACH.

Since you are a Brexit supporter, and you actually think about things, go on: how will flexibility and opportunity to diverge on standards be beneficial to the UK? Because all I can see is that those are the very things that will damage the UK even more.

Rules and regulations can always be tailored better if they only apply to a smaller region or one industry than having to be a one size fits all approach. To suggest the idea that change is always bad is obviously flawed.

This is why it was thought to be a good idea to give Scotland more autonomy and Wales with their own parliaments. 

Regional mayors are also expected to benefit their fiefdoms with region specific policy. 

So using this logic breaking away from a supranational set up, EU,  should also be the eventual direction of travel ?

The UK has just managed to be the first out of the blocks on this but Its not unusual for GB to be in front of the pack with others taking their own sweet time for the penny to drop. 

I notice the idea, that's been in circulation for a while now, about a multi speed Europe. 

A Franco, German report sees the future of the bloc as a series of concentric rings with multiple tiers of membership rather than a simple club of member states.

I have seen this described by EU fans of the policy as simplification, so they are already keen to sell it. 

This is the exact opposite of what the EU was supposed to be about with everybody operating instep with everybody else. This idea is a complete about face to the original political experiment but If the French and Germans want it it's sure to happen. 

And the idea would not be even whispered today if not for the opportunity, for a rethink, created by brexit. 

This new deal which will inevitably include the UK in negotiations as a major trading partner and military power will improve the lot of not just us in the UK but across Europe.

It could well create a free trading area, the EU should have always remained, without constraining members from other free trade deals.

You can thank me and similar minded folks latter. 

https://unherd.com/2023/09/keir-starmer-will-never-rejoin-the-eu/

 

 

[pellinore]

59 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

And the idea would not be even whispered today if not for the opportunity, for a rethink, created by brexit. 

So the opportunity to become an associate member of the EU would not be possible if we were still a member? Very true, but if we were still a member the need wouldn't arise! Reminds me of Rees Mogg saying we had the freedom now not to have border controls- when we wouldn't have needed them if we were still a member of the EU.

The idea of a two-tier membership being touted is to give consideration to partial membership to countries who want to join, but don't quite fulfil the criteria for full membership - like Ukraine. And now Britain of course. It certainly wasn't to touted to include Britain- that's our idea, hoping we can be considered. As far as the EU is concerned, Brexit is done and dusted, they imposed the required import controls and the NIP from Day 1- it is only Britain still getting tripped up in the lack of preparations and economic fallout.

Edited September 24 by pellinore

[pellinore]

UK Business leaders are keen to get back to a closer relationship:

British trade chiefs frustrated by Brexit red tape told The Independent that they welcome the idea of associate membership – saying it would be “fantastic” to remove tariff barriers and cut down on current friction.

Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processors Association (BMPA), said: “Anything that makes trading with the EU more seamless would be a good thing – it would be a big improvement on what we have.”

Business chiefs urge Labour to consider new EU membership plan | The Independent

Edited September 24 by pellinore