Ajay0 Posted September 30, 2023 #226 Share Posted September 30, 2023 17 hours ago, Sherapy said: First of all you have been misled and in turn are trying to mislead, the facts are any subjective claim of enlightenment is difficult if not impossible to prove empirically at this time, due to the fact, these are subjective claims that vary depending on the person and due to the complexity of consciousness. Subjective claims need not be disregarded. A doctor needs to take subjective accounts by his patient as well to better diagnose the disease or illness he is dealing with. In a court of law , the subjective claims of witnesses are also used as evidence . The Buddha himself had only his personal account of enlightenment as his claim to Buddhahood. But he had insisted on people not to believe him blindly, encouraged critical investigation, and to study and practice his teachings to figure out whether they have any validity or not. Some sayings of his in this regard to critical examination... Quote "O bhikshus and wise men, just as a goldsmith would test his gold by burning, cutting, and rubbing it, so you must examine my words and accept them, but not merely out of reverence for me." – Buddha, ghanavyuha sutra (Sutra of Dense Array) Do not go by revelation; Do not go by tradition; Do not go by hearsay; Do not go on the authority of sacred texts; Do not go on the grounds of pure logic; Do not go by a view that seems rational; Do not go by reflecting on mere appearances; Do not go along with a considered view because you agree with it; Do not go along on the grounds that the person is competent; Do not go along because “the recluse is our teacher.” Kalamas, when you yourselves know: These things are unwholesome, these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; and when undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill, abandon them. ~ Buddha ( Kalama Sutta ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajay0 Posted September 30, 2023 #227 Share Posted September 30, 2023 21 hours ago, XenoFish said: And who dictates this correct way? People do. But that too is suspect. Quote Man is made for error; it enters his mind naturally, and he discovers a few truths only with the greatest effort. ~ Frederick the Great It is people who have made the heroic austerity of proper and intelligent effort who can be expected to have correct judgement. Those who have not made the effort would have incorrect judgement leading to a wrong course of action and eventual failure. In a chess game as well, there is a correct sequential course of action leading to victory while other courses may lead to draw or defeat. A ship's captain can plot a correct course leading to the port or harbor safely after studying the charts diligently, and also a wrong course carelessly leading to shipwreck after hitting a sandbar or rock. So it means that if you do your due diligence, you can end up as a winner and not as a loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 30, 2023 #228 Share Posted September 30, 2023 15 minutes ago, Ajay0 said: But that too is suspect. It is people who have made the heroic austerity of proper and intelligent effort who can be expected to have correct judgement. Those who have not made the effort would have incorrect judgement leading to a wrong course of action and eventual failure. In a chess game as well, there is a correct sequential course of action leading to victory while other courses may lead to draw or defeat. A ship's captain can plot a correct course leading to the port or harbor safely after studying the charts diligently, and also a wrong course carelessly leading to shipwreck after hitting a sandbar or rock. So it means that if you do your due diligence, you can end up as a winner and not as a loser. But who decides the 'right path'? That's the thing and one of the reasons for ideological warfare. People tend to think that their path is the right path. Worst of all is when some decided that the path they walk is the only correct one. The thing about the game of life, no one wins. We only play the game. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajay0 Posted September 30, 2023 #229 Share Posted September 30, 2023 25 minutes ago, XenoFish said: But who decides the 'right path'? That's the thing and one of the reasons for ideological warfare. People tend to think that their path is the right path. Worst of all is when some decided that the path they walk is the only correct one. Obviously knowledge and research helps one to understand the right path. If the Nazi ideologues had done their research well, they may not have ended up in a suicidal course of action and ending up as losers. Quote The thing about the game of life, no one wins. We only play the game. But to play any game well, we need to know the rules and regulations so as not to lose the game through fouls or breaking the rules. You can play and score a goal in your own goalpost, but that does not make you a good player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 30, 2023 #230 Share Posted September 30, 2023 32 minutes ago, Ajay0 said: But to play any game well, we need to know the rules and regulations so as not to lose the game through fouls or breaking the rules. You can play and score a goal in your own goalpost, but that does not make you a good player. Yet again the rules are man-made. The idea of winning at the game is a dog chasing its tail. Playing and achieving personal goals makes a good player. Just because your goals and wishes are not equal to another person's doesn't make them less of a player. Because they are trying to do some-thing. Again you're assuming that people have to follow a well worn path in life. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted September 30, 2023 #231 Share Posted September 30, 2023 (edited) Man twists the simple into knots…and calls them reason & philosophy lightly Edited September 30, 2023 by lightly 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 30, 2023 #232 Share Posted September 30, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Ajay0 said: Subjective claims need not be disregarded. A doctor needs to take subjective accounts by his patient as well to better diagnose the disease or illness he is dealing with. In a court of law , the subjective claims of witnesses are also used as evidence . The Buddha himself had only his personal account of enlightenment as his claim to Buddhahood. But he had insisted on people not to believe him blindly, encouraged critical investigation, and to study and practice his teachings to figure out whether they have any validity or not. Some sayings of his in this regard to critical examination... It is good to see you are refining your original claim. I am aware in the case of the Buddha, that “his personal account of enlightenment served as the foundation for his teachings” However, the Buddha emphasized the importance of critical investigation and personal exploration rather than “blind belief.” He encouraged individuals to study, practice, and evaluate his teachings for themselves to determine their validity with the tools of one’s culture which includes science and the law. I agree, It is important to note that while subjective claims can be meaningful, they are not necessarily sufficient on their own. In many realms, including science, additional evidence is sought to supplement subjective experiences with evidence, namely a diagnosis. There has to be something empirical to support the claim for ex: one feels hot, they think they have a fever their temptation is taken and it reads 97.2, they don’t have a fever. Seeking empirical evidence and engaging in critical inquiry helps create a more comprehensive, accurate and reliable understanding of the world. Balancing subjective claims with objective evidence is key to forming well-informed perspectives. By maintaining an open mind, actively investigating claims, and considering a range of sources, we can cultivate a more reliable, accurate understanding of the world around us. AJ, my two cents, try to keep in mind as you post the significance of conducting your own comprehensive investigation and utilizing the available tools, such as scientific methods, to avoid any potential misleading information, or be sure to state “In your opinion” only, It is essential to examine claims critically, not to end at an anecdotal claim, but to include the evidence. This approach safeguards against drawing premature or unfounded conclusions and giving off the impression that you are misleading others. Edited September 30, 2023 by Sherapy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 30, 2023 #233 Share Posted September 30, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ajay0 said: But that too is suspect. It is people who have made the heroic austerity of proper and intelligent effort who can be expected to have correct judgement. Those who have not made the effort would have incorrect judgement leading to a wrong course of action and eventual failure. In a chess game as well, there is a correct sequential course of action leading to victory while other courses may lead to draw or defeat. A ship's captain can plot a correct course leading to the port or harbor safely after studying the charts diligently, and also a wrong course carelessly leading to shipwreck after hitting a sandbar or rock. So it means that if you do your due diligence, you can end up as a winner and not as a loser. While it is true that diligent effort and proper evaluation can often lead to more informed decision-making and increase the chances of success, it is also important to consider the limitations of human knowledge and the complexities of various situations. In certain areas, such as chess or navigation, there may indeed be objectively correct courses of action based on established rules or known factors. However, it is essential to recognize that the real world often presents uncertain and unpredictable circumstances, where there may not always be a clearly defined "correct" path. Furthermore, it is worth noting that even with diligent effort and careful analysis, humans are still prone to error and can make mistakes, they have good days and bad days. Our understanding of the world is constantly evolving, and new information or unforeseen factors do influence outcomes. Embracing humility in our decision-making processes and being willing to adapt and learn from mistakes can contribute to ongoing growth and improvement. Recognizing that no one has a monopoly on truth and that our judgments can be fallible allows us to remain open-minded, explore different perspectives, and consider a range of possibilities. AJ, to me Xeno is saying rather than focusing solely on a binary concept of winners and losers, it may be more beneficial to strive for continuous learning, adaptability, and a comprehensive understanding that takes into account the complexity and uncertainties of the world we live in. Edited September 30, 2023 by Sherapy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 30, 2023 #234 Share Posted September 30, 2023 7 minutes ago, Sherapy said: Xeno is saying rather than focusing solely on a binary concept of winners and losers, it may be more beneficial to strive for continuous learning, adaptability, and a comprehensive understanding that takes into account the complexity and uncertainties of the world we live in. Just live life. That's all I'm really saying. I've noticed people who get hung up on things, become things. Losing themselves in the process. Mostly changing in to what someone else wants. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 30, 2023 #235 Share Posted September 30, 2023 8 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Just live life. That's all I'm really saying. I've noticed people who get hung up on things, become things. Losing themselves in the process. Mostly changing in to what someone else wants. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted September 30, 2023 #236 Share Posted September 30, 2023 1 hour ago, XenoFish said: Just live life. That's all I'm really saying. I've noticed people who get hung up on things, become things. Losing themselves in the process. Mostly changing in to what someone else wants. Don't sweat the small stuff. And don't sweat the big stuff either. It's just stuff. I'm in the process of painting my truck myself. Never done it before.... so, lots of research, etc. One guy who is a professional car painter and has a YouTube Channel to help other people who want to paint their own cars has a saying at the end of every video..he says, Don't over think it...it's just paint! 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 30, 2023 #237 Share Posted September 30, 2023 1 hour ago, joc said: Don't sweat the small stuff. And don't sweat the big stuff either. It's just stuff. I'm in the process of painting my truck myself. Never done it before.... so, lots of research, etc. One guy who is a professional car painter and has a YouTube Channel to help other people who want to paint their own cars has a saying at the end of every video..he says, Don't over think it...it's just paint! I'll be adventuring into plumbing here soon. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted September 30, 2023 #238 Share Posted September 30, 2023 5 minutes ago, XenoFish said: I'll be adventuring into plumbing here soon. What kind of plumbing? I have been involved in every aspect of irrigation (lawn sprinklers) over the course of the last 38 years. I'm not a plumber but I am licensed to do anything with water 'outside' of a building. And I've done a fair share of plumbing over the years on my own homes...so if you need any help...maybe I can answer a question or two. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted September 30, 2023 #239 Share Posted September 30, 2023 1 hour ago, joc said: Don't sweat the small stuff. And don't sweat the big stuff either. It's just stuff. I'm in the process of painting my truck myself. Never done it before.... so, lots of research, etc. One guy who is a professional car painter and has a YouTube Channel to help other people who want to paint their own cars has a saying at the end of every video..he says, Don't over think it...it's just paint! Details please? What kind of truck? Are you going base coat/clear? Did you sand it down to just primer or take it all the way down to metal? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted September 30, 2023 #240 Share Posted September 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, Guyver said: Details please? What kind of truck? Are you going base coat/clear? Did you sand it down to just primer or take it all the way down to metal? It is a 2000 Toyota Tacoma. I sanded it down, just to the primer, except for a few rust places I took down to metal. Then I sanded down probably about 20 small dents, door dings and such, by hand, then I filled them with bondo and sanded those down with a fine grit till they were smooth like the rest. That's where I am. What I intend to do is spray about 3 rounds of primer, then sand all that, then clean, clean, clean, clean and spray a base coat, lightly sand that with fine grit, clean, clean, clean, then apply another base coat and then two coats of sealer. I only have a pancake compressor so I am planning to rent a 10HP 20CFM. I'm thinking about maybe a ATV Carbonero Sprayer for the clear coat and I'm not sure what for the primer and base. Maybe cheap sprayer for the primer and the Carbonero for both base and clear coat. Any ideas? So far I haven't invested any money in anything other that the sanding materials and the bondo. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted September 30, 2023 #241 Share Posted September 30, 2023 26 minutes ago, joc said: It is a 2000 Toyota Tacoma. I sanded it down, just to the primer, except for a few rust places I took down to metal. Then I sanded down probably about 20 small dents, door dings and such, by hand, then I filled them with bondo and sanded those down with a fine grit till they were smooth like the rest. That's where I am. What I intend to do is spray about 3 rounds of primer, then sand all that, then clean, clean, clean, clean and spray a base coat, lightly sand that with fine grit, clean, clean, clean, then apply another base coat and then two coats of sealer. I only have a pancake compressor so I am planning to rent a 10HP 20CFM. I'm thinking about maybe a ATV Carbonero Sprayer for the clear coat and I'm not sure what for the primer and base. Maybe cheap sprayer for the primer and the Carbonero for both base and clear coat. Any ideas? So far I haven't invested any money in anything other that the sanding materials and the bondo. It sounds like you’re on the right track. I’ve only painted one car myself, it was a 79 Datsun 280z. But, it was my friend who was the pro and knew what to do, I just did all the grunt work that you’ve been doing….you know, the hard part. He was the spray master, so no….I’m of no help except for as a cheerleader. Go Joc!!! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted September 30, 2023 #242 Share Posted September 30, 2023 Sounds like Vice Grip Garage. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReadTheGreatControversyEGW Posted September 30, 2023 Author #243 Share Posted September 30, 2023 On 9/26/2023 at 5:58 AM, XenoFish said: like the Nazis did in ww2 under the nihilist spell, they will obviously end up as losers. It wasn't nihilism that caused them to lose, they stretched themselves to thin. They had purpose, a terrible one at that, but a direction none the less. It just got too big. You support their purpose or ideologies as being 'a direction'? It was criminal. Unethical. Unless we treat each other as equals, despite ethnicity, social status or even religious views, terrible evils will result in society. We forget this and another genocide will be on the way. I think these are the philosophies of the self-styled 'elitists' planning world population reduction in their new world order mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReadTheGreatControversyEGW Posted September 30, 2023 Author #244 Share Posted September 30, 2023 On 9/26/2023 at 5:12 PM, jmccr8 said: To be frank I do not get the sense that you are willing to put the effort in to understanding/learning and will always have problems arguing subjects that you do not comprehend the scope of. I have no problems friend. Different views. I'm ok with that. Truth doesn't need to prove itself. It has the advantage already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReadTheGreatControversyEGW Posted September 30, 2023 Author #245 Share Posted September 30, 2023 On 9/29/2023 at 12:26 AM, Ajay0 said: Quote It wasn't nihilism that caused them to lose, they stretched themselves to thin. They had purpose, a terrible one at that, but a direction none the less. It just got too big. Viktor Frankl, a Holocaust survivor, philosopher and medical doctor specializing in neurology and psychiatry commented thus... Quote “If we present a man with a concept of man which is not true, we may well corrupt him. When we present man as an automaton of reflexes, as a mind-machine, as a bundle of instincts, as a pawn of drives and reactions, as a mere product of instinct, heredity and environment, we feed the nihilism to which modern man is, in any case, prone. I became acquainted with the last stage of that corruption in my second concentration camp, Auschwitz. The gas chambers of Auschwitz were the ultimate consequence of the theory that man is nothing but the product of heredity and environment; or as the Nazi liked to say, ‘of Blood and Soil.’ I am absolutely convinced that the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Maidanek were ultimately prepared not in some Ministry or other in Berlin, but rather at the desks and lecture halls of nihilistic scientists and philosophers.”- Viktor Frankl Yes! Yes! I love this! Thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReadTheGreatControversyEGW Posted September 30, 2023 Author #246 Share Posted September 30, 2023 On 9/29/2023 at 8:21 AM, XenoFish said: On 9/29/2023 at 12:26 AM, Ajay0 said: there obviously has to be a correct view as well. And who dictates this correct way? People do. Throwing out all because 'people said it' is wise? Is it not better to review what people say to see if it is true and wise? The notion that there is no good and no evil strikes directly at the root of all morality, destabilizing any code of good conduct, virtue or integrity, virtually saying, 'there is no right or wrong.' In other words, 'do what thou wilt shalt be the whole of the law.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReadTheGreatControversyEGW Posted September 30, 2023 Author #247 Share Posted September 30, 2023 (edited) On 9/29/2023 at 8:21 AM, XenoFish said: It was about the meaningless slaughter of human lives. Done out of ideological reasons. Again it comes down to the horrible purpose that was being enacted. Which isn't nihilism. Nihilism at the heart. Values are meaningless. So you don't have to care about human lives. Nothing matters. Morality and compassion - meaningless. This is nihilism. 'The doctrine that nothing actually exists or that existence or values are meaningless. Relentless negativity or cynicism suggesting an absence of values or beliefs. Political belief or action that advocates or commits violence or terrorism without discernible constructive goals.' Edited September 30, 2023 by ReadTheGreatControversyEGW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 30, 2023 #248 Share Posted September 30, 2023 27 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said: I have no problems friend. Different views. I'm ok with that. Truth doesn't need to prove itself. It has the advantage already. Hi Read The truth is you are ignoring your ability to learn which makes a problem for you in constructive discussion. You are deciding what truth is and not recognizing it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 30, 2023 #249 Share Posted September 30, 2023 1 hour ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said: You support their purpose or ideologies as being 'a direction'? It was criminal. Unethical. Unless we treat each other as equals, despite ethnicity, social status or even religious views, terrible evils will result in society. We forget this and another genocide will be on the way. I think these are the philosophies of the self-styled 'elitists' planning world population reduction in their new world order mess. Do Not Put Words In My Mouth! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 30, 2023 #250 Share Posted September 30, 2023 45 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said: Nihilism at the heart. Values are meaningless. So you don't have to care about human lives. Nothing matters. Morality and compassion - meaningless. This is nihilism. 'The doctrine that nothing actually exists or that existence or values are meaningless. Relentless negativity or cynicism suggesting an absence of values or beliefs. Political belief or action that advocates or commits violence or terrorism without discernible constructive goals.' You're swimming intellectually waters too deep for you. 52 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said: Throwing out all because 'people said it' is wise? Is it not better to review what people say to see if it is true and wise? The notion that there is no good and no evil strikes directly at the root of all morality, destabilizing any code of good conduct, virtue or integrity, virtually saying, 'there is no right or wrong.' In other words, 'do what thou wilt shalt be the whole of the law.' Love is the law, love under will. Again the waters are too deep for you. Just go back to preaching already. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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