Nihilisn, Nationalism & Nazism

[eight bits]

OoooKay.

Apparently something happened to Grim's post, but he was active in that thread (reacting to posts) a few hours ago:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/profile/181609-grim-reaper-6/

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by eight bits

[+joc]

An existential nihilist and Jesus walk into a bar.

Jesus: Why are you here wasting your life.

The nihilist: I'm not wasting my life. I like drinking more than anything, I believe a man has a right to choose what to value.

Jesus: Well I decide what is right, and I say you are wasting your life. Continue on this path you will not make it to heaven.

The nihilist: Your kinda being a hypocrite, after all if you just decide whats right doesn't that make you a nihilist.

Jesus: huh... ****!

[+Sherapy]

58 minutes ago, joc said:

An existential nihilist and Jesus walk into a bar.

Jesus: Why are you here wasting your life.

The nihilist: I'm not wasting my life. I like drinking more than anything, I believe a man has a right to choose what to value.

Jesus: Well I decide what is right, and I say you are wasting your life. Continue on this path you will not make it to heaven.

The nihilist: Your kinda being a hypocrite, after all if you just decide whats right doesn't that make you a nihilist.

Jesus: huh... ****!

Excellent add to.

[Antigonos]

17 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

There are many sources of information that will seek to lead and guide one into what they call "truth," masquerading as the original source intelligence. Many voices speaking in the world, this or that is the "truth," saying, "Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant." So it has been and so it will be to the end of time. 

Have you ever actually read any Nietzsche?

Like say, Beyond Good and Evil or The Genealogy of Morals?

 

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, joc said:

An existential nihilist and Jesus walk into a bar.

Jesus: Why are you here wasting your life.

The nihilist: I'm not wasting my life. I like drinking more than anything, I believe a man has a right to choose what to value.

Jesus: Well I decide what is right, and I say you are wasting your life. Continue on this path you will not make it to heaven.

The nihilist: Your kinda being a hypocrite, after all if you just decide whats right doesn't that make you a nihilist.

Jesus: huh... ****!

Or.

Jesus: you're wasting your life.

Nihilist: I don't believe in you.

 

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Antigonos said:

Have you ever actually read any Nietzsche?

Like say, Beyond Good and Evil or The Genealogy of Morals?

 

Thank you.

[spartan max2]

3 hours ago, joc said:

An existential nihilist and Jesus walk into a bar.

Jesus: Why are you here wasting your life.

The nihilist: I'm not wasting my life. I like drinking more than anything, I believe a man has a right to choose what to value.

Jesus: Well I decide what is right, and I say you are wasting your life. Continue on this path you will not make it to heaven.

The nihilist: Your kinda being a hypocrite, after all if you just decide whats right doesn't that make you a nihilist.

Jesus: huh... ****!

Did you come up with that or take it done somewhere.

If you came up with it yourself then kiddos. That's pretty good.

[Guyver]

Doesn’t the Butterfly effect demonstrate that all life does have meaning?

[XenoFish]

38 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Doesn’t the Butterfly effect demonstrate that all life does have meaning?

No. It's only cause and effect. 

[Guyver]

54 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No. It's only cause and effect. 

Ok, but since every cause has an effect, it seems to me that anything that could be a cause of future events, does have meaning by definition.

[XenoFish]

49 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Ok, but since every cause has an effect, it seems to me that anything that could be a cause of future events, does have meaning by definition.

A meaning could be attributed to it. Not inherent unless the actions are intentionally. Image for a moment that you throw a baseball at a target. You do it for a reason. Hit or miss. The butterfly effect would be the ripples in the air you have no control over. How one redirected bit of air might lead to a piece of dust to enter a person's nose. Subtly contributing to a sinus infect, that leads to time off. That also causes further chain reactions.

That's about the best way I can describe it. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by XenoFish

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

Ok, but since every cause has an effect, it seems to me that anything that could be a cause of future events, does have meaning by definition.

 It sounds like you are proposing that anything that has the potential to be a cause of future events inherently has meaning. I think this perspective has some validity, but considering certain nuances is important in responding/answering this claim.

Firstly, there is a distinction between the concepts of causal relationship and subjective meaning. While causality refers to the relationship between cause and effect, meaning is a subjective interpretation or significance that individuals assign to events, actions, or experiences in their lives.

While these events can have causal significance, not all events necessarily have inherent meaning in the sense of purpose or significance assigned by conscious beings. It is possible for events to occur without any inherent purpose or subjective meaning attached to them.

Then, the idea of meaning can vary among individuals or cultural contexts. What may be meaningful to one person may not be meaningful to another. This subjectivity highlights that meaning is not solely derived from causality but is often shaped by personal beliefs, values, and interpretations.

Over to you.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

4 hours ago, Guyver said:

Doesn’t the Butterfly effect demonstrate that all life does have meaning?

The concept of the butterfly effect  suggests that small changes in initial conditions can lead to significant differences in outcomes over time. This idea is often exemplified by the metaphor of a butterfly flapping its wings in one part of the world, potentially leading to a chain reaction of events that could eventually result in a large-scale outcome elsewhere.

While the butterfly effect is fascinating and highlights the complexity of interconnected systems, it does not necessarily demonstrate that all life has inherent meaning. The butterfly effect speaks more to the unpredictability and sensitivity of complex systems rather than the presence of intrinsic or universal meaning.

While the butterfly effect can demonstrate how interconnectedness and small actions can have far-reaching consequences, it does not provide a definitive answer regarding the inherent meaning or purpose of life. The question of life's meaning remains a complex and multifaceted topic, with various philosophical and religious perspectives offering different interpretations. 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Sherapy

[Duke Wellington]

With Nietzsche he is saying that people are led by the beliefs, norms, and ideas, that society installs into them.

Alternatively man should live how he wants too to accomplish whatever gives them personal satisfaction. Rather than playing out the programming of others. Its individualism free from all constraints.

[Grim Reaper 6]

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

He posted a few hours ago:

On the larger question, while I think the topic might interest him, there's nothing SDA about Grim's postings.

I don’t know why the moderators thought what you posted was inappropriate if the content still exists.

Thanks for your post, and for having my back.

[Guyver]

Things have meaning because we attribute meaning to them, and we are possibly uniquely alone in the universe.  Living things have meaning because they make decisions.  Decisions affect future outcomes and therefore influenced the world.

If there were no living beings, and everything was inanimate matter….like rocks…meaning would not exist.  The forces of nature would still operate as they do now, but nothing would know it.  That is why life has meaning.

[eight bits]

4 hours ago, Guyver said:

Things have meaning because we attribute meaning to them, and we are possibly uniquely alone in the universe.  Living things have meaning because they make decisions.  Decisions affect future outcomes and therefore influenced the world.

If there were no living beings, and everything was inanimate matter….like rocks…meaning would not exist.  The forces of nature would still operate as they do now, but nothing would know it.  That is why life has meaning.

It is a little bit intriguing (to me) that when we talk about meaning, we often use phrases like finding meaning in something, as if meaning were the result of an active search or a discovery.

Our colleague @Davros of Skaro would doubtless cite the dopamine mechanism as the root of our ability to recognize and appreciate a succesful search outcome or a discovery in general. "Eureka!" shouts Archimedes as he runs around skyclad in a dopamine fit.

There is something "bloodless" about attributing meaning to something. That sounds as if a deliberate choice is being made (and maybe it is, too).  But to me, based on the "feel" of the thing, I cannot imagine a "me" who didn't find meaning in getting out in the woods, preferably with a dog companion. That, even though I know there are plenty of people who find such activities less attractive than I do.

I don't have a conclusion for this post; it's just something I've noticed.

[Antigonos]

19 hours ago, Antigonos said:

Have you ever actually read any Nietzsche?

Like say, Beyond Good and Evil or The Genealogy of Morals?

 

Still waiting for an answer @ReadTheGreatControversyEGW

[XenoFish]

5 hours ago, Guyver said:

Things have meaning because we attribute meaning to them.

 

Yes.

Quote

and we are possibly uniquely alone in the universe.

True.

Quote

Living things have meaning because they make decisions.

Purpose not meaning.

Quote

Decisions affect future outcomes and therefore influenced the world.

Too a greater or lesser degree. You could look at it in a way where no coincidences exist and everything is the result of an intentional act. 

Quote

If there were no living beings, and everything was inanimate matter….like rocks…meaning would not exist.  The forces of nature would still operate as they do now, but nothing would know it.

Meaning is not inherent. 

Quote

That is why life has meaning.

Life has meaning because people give it one. It is not inherent within the universe. Meaning is to some degree (I suppose) based on self-image. In a way meaning is a value based system where the currency is emotion. 

Don't take this as an insult, it's not meant as one. You place a value on your music, a meaning to it. It is something which you enjoy. I am indifferent to it.

It is meaningful to you, because it is meaningful to you.

 

[+Sherapy]

4 hours ago, eight bits said:

It is a little bit intriguing (to me) that when we talk about meaning, we often use phrases like finding meaning in something, as if meaning were the result of an active search or a discovery.

Our colleague @Davros of Skaro would doubtless cite the dopamine mechanism as the root of our ability to recognize and appreciate a succesful search outcome or a discovery in general. "Eureka!" shouts Archimedes as he runs around skyclad in a dopamine fit.

There is something "bloodless" about attributing meaning to something. That sounds as if a deliberate choice is being made (and maybe it is, too).  But to me, based on the "feel" of the thing, I cannot imagine a "me" who didn't find meaning in getting out in the woods, preferably with a dog companion. That, even though I know there are plenty of people who find such activities less attractive than I do.

I don't have a conclusion for this post; it's just something I've noticed.

Thinking on this further, the brain has a natural tendency to look for inherent meaning in things too. This is often referred to as "meaning-making" or "sense-making." The human brain has an innate desire to understand and make sense of the world around us. We seek to find patterns, connections, and explanations for the events and experiences we encounter.

Pattern recognition: The brain excels at recognizing patterns and extracting meaning from them. We have a natural inclination to identify and interpret patterns in our environment, whether they are visual, auditory, or even abstract concepts. This ability helps us understand and anticipate the world around us.

Attribution of cause and effect: The brain seeks to understand the causes and consequences of events and experiences. We tend to attribute meaning and significance to events by linking them to specific causes or attributing them to certain factors. This helps us make sense of why things happen and how they impact us.

Cognitive biases and heuristics: The brain relies on cognitive biases and heuristics, which are mental shortcuts, to make sense of complex information quickly. These cognitive shortcuts can influence how we interpret and assign meaning to events. They can lead to biases in perception and decision-making, as our brains often simplify complex situations to make them more manageable.

Narrative construction: The brain has a natural inclination to construct narratives or stories to make sense of events and experiences. We often frame our lives and the world around us in the form of stories, creating a cohesive and meaningful narrative that helps us understand our place in the world.

Yet, the search for inherent meaning can and does vary among individuals and cultures. Different perspectives, beliefs, and cultural backgrounds will influence how meaning is assigned and interpreted. Additionally, the concept of meaning is also subjective accounting for the variances from person to person.

 

 

[eight bits]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Cognitive biases and heuristics: The brain relies on cognitive biases and heuristics, which are mental shortcuts, to make sense of complex information quickly. These cognitive shortcuts can influence how we interpret and assign meaning to events. They can lead to biases in perception and decision-making, as our brains often simplify complex situations to make them more manageable.

We can learn our way out of those, though, which suggests that we learned our way into them (rather than them being something inherent in the brain, the way the dopamine reward system inheres in the brain). I think there are cultural variations, too, which if so would be another sign of something learned.

We're in tricky territory. When friend and colleague @XenoFish asserts bluntly

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Meaning is not inherent. 

How is that different from a more cautious observer saying "I don't know that there is an inherent meaning" (in human life or being conscious)?"

I mean, we have @Guyver's confident assertion

Quote

If there were no living beings, and everything was inanimate matter….like rocks…meaning would not exist.

which he types out on a silicon-based device which computes, a box of ground-up rocks,which some people fear will soon develop artificial intelligence. What is AI if not "rocks that think?" How far is that from "rocks who think?" And if we are who are who's discover meaning, who is to say that the smarter rocks will not discover meaning, too?

I think it's a complicated problem.

As to brains in all of this, if AI pans out, then a new fallacy will be revealed: maybe they will call it the organ meat fallacy (that the properties of brains are the properties of consciousness in general). As if we were discussing how to cool a heat engine, and somebody started talking about the finer points of sweat glands as the only way to accomplish that.

Edited September 24, 2023 by eight bits

[Guyver]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Purpose not meaning.  Meaning is not inherent. 

 

But, to have purpose is to have meaning, even if it's not acknowledged by anyone.  Everything that serves a purpose does have meaning.  

This old style windmill has a purpose, and it has meaning.  It was very important to the people who built it back in the day.  But, the windmill has no understanding of it.  Since the windmill is not a living being, it has no meaning or purpose and it doesn't need one.  The windmill is not going to contemplate it's place in the universe, but we do.  

Quote

Life has meaning because people give it one. It is not inherent within the universe. Meaning is to some degree (I suppose) based on self-image. In a way meaning is a value based system where the currency is emotion. 

Don't take this as an insult, it's not meant as one. You place a value on your music, a meaning to it. It is something which you enjoy. I am indifferent to it.

It is meaningful to you, because it is meaningful to you.

Yes, I agree that meaning is a concept we understand.  The universe may be like the windmill, it may have no idea of it's function since it is not an intelligent entity.....unless it is and we just don't know it.  Scientifically it doesn't make any sense that the universe would be self-aware, there are no mechanisms that we are aware of that would allow for it.  But, is that certain?  IDK.  But, since we are a part of the universe, at the very least it can be said that the universe does have understanding and purpose, in the sense that we are a subset of that greater thing and we have understanding. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Guyver

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Guyver said:

But, since we are a part of the universe, at the very least it can be said that the universe does have understanding and purpose, in the sense that we are a subset of that greater thing.  

We are a part of the universe. That doesn't make us and all life the consciousness of it. Such a belief could be attributed to it and as a part of whatever belief system requires it. Yet the universe is silent.

[Guyver]

19 hours ago, Sherapy said:

 It sounds like you are proposing that anything that has the potential to be a cause of future events inherently has meaning. I think this perspective has some validity, but considering certain nuances is important in responding/answering this claim.

Firstly, there is a distinction between the concepts of causal relationship and subjective meaning. While causality refers to the relationship between cause and effect, meaning is a subjective interpretation or significance that individuals assign to events, actions, or experiences in their lives.

While these events can have causal significance, not all events necessarily have inherent meaning in the sense of purpose or significance assigned by conscious beings. It is possible for events to occur without any inherent purpose or subjective meaning attached to them.

Then, the idea of meaning can vary among individuals or cultural contexts. What may be meaningful to one person may not be meaningful to another. This subjectivity highlights that meaning is not solely derived from causality but is often shaped by personal beliefs, values, and interpretations.

Over to you.

Well, I mean I can't argue against anything you just said.  But, the notion we are discussing is whether or not life has any meaning.  I'm arguing that life does have meaning because living things affect outcomes on this planet which is a subset of the universe.  Even if there is no one to acknowledge it, or who cares....because different actions have an effect on future outcomes, the actions themselves have meaning in the universe.  

[Guyver]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

We are a part of the universe. That doesn't make us and all life the consciousness of it. Such a belief could be attributed to it and as a part of whatever belief system requires it. Yet the universe is silent.

True.  As far as we know, what you're saying is factual.  However, that consciousness does exist here within us as a subset of the universe, makes it true that consciousness does exist in the universe.