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Nihilisn, Nationalism & Nazism


ReadTheGreatControversyEGW

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23 minutes ago, eight bits said:

I mean, we have @Guyver's confident assertion

which he types out on a silicon-based device which computes, a box of ground-up rocks,which some people fear will soon develop artificial intelligence. What is AI if not "rocks that think?" How far is that from "rocks who think?" And if we are who are who's discover meaning, who is to say that the smarter rocks will not discover meaning, too?

I think it's a complicated problem.

 

The problem is that there are no smarter rocks because rocks are not biological organisms.  

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10 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Well, I mean I can't argue against anything you just said.  But, the notion we are discussing is whether or not life has any meaning.  I'm arguing that life does have meaning because living things affect outcomes on this planet which is a subset of the universe.  Even if there is no one to acknowledge it, or who cares....because different actions have an effect on future outcomes, the actions themselves have meaning in the universe.  

Not really. When the sun bakes our planet long after everything is extinct. There will eventually be not one trace left. 

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1 hour ago, Guyver said:

The problem is that there are no smarter rocks because rocks are not biological organisms.  

Suppose for the sake of argument that the AI enterprise succeeds, and we have something like Lt Cdr Data, but on a computer like we both have before us now: a thing of silicon chips.

That's proof of concept that "rocks can think," not the individual pebble, but the material arranged in a certain way. (Waterlogged soot doesn't think either, but here we are you and I, artfully arranged carbon, water and a pinch of salt, and we think just fine). OK, the universe is a big place, both in duration and extent. If rocks can think when arranged properly, who is to say that nowhere and nowhen have rocks ever fallen into such an arrangement?

Our individual neurons don't seem to think. Throw several tens of billions together, let them connect up with each other in the right ways, and the individual neurons still don't think, but the collective billions do.

I wouldn't write off rocks just yet.

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I’m a little out of place in this place…because I am much more ignorant of nearly any subject than many many of the more knowledgeable and  prolific contributors here.   But, that’s only because I’m odder than most.  I don’t seem to have a need to find a great deal of meaning or purpose in all of existence, including my own.   I’m much more Interested in experiencing Life than in explanations.   It is what it is.?  I’m not “willfully”!! Ignorant ,,as in being ignorant just to be obstinate! ;)  just willingly ignorant ..because I honestly don’t really care about a lot of things that many others seem to find so urgently important to ‘KNOW’.    I do like to learn a bit about a lot of things that I find interesting ..and I’m thankful for all the knowledge people share in here…but ya, I’m intellectually lazy… life is not a game for me , wherein the person that knows the most ‘facts’ wins!    I’m more interested in people’s feelings and intentions than their intellect.      Now I hear the more rationally minded in here thinkin…” but ,lightly, where would we be ,as a species, if we had tried to survive on our feelings rather than our intellect”?     ..I have no idea. :wub:

Edited by lightly
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7 minutes ago, lightly said:

don’t seem to have a need to find a great deal of meaning or purpose in all of existence, including my own.   I’m much more Interested in experiencing Life than in explanations.   It is what it is.?

You're pretty much at the philosophical finish line. :tu:

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On 9/22/2023 at 3:08 PM, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

That's the thing though. Life is definitely not meaningless. This is one reason why I reject supposed "scientific theory" that calls foolish everything that cannot be seen or tested or observed in a lab. Science is in no position to make that determination. It is not all knowing, and never will be.  Some don't believe there is more to life than meets the eye and that's ok. In the event that there is more, as per the witness of many millions, that would be a a risk not worth taking.   

Hi Read

Science doesn't tell people that they are foolish people do. Science shows how things work and their intetactions there is nothing personal about it.

You reject people that find personal meaning outside of your god construct and talk to them as though they are foolish. The best advise to is is to enjoy the meaning you give your life and let others enjoy theirs as it will garner you greater respect.

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On 9/22/2023 at 4:54 PM, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Choices definitely matter and are important in the grand scheme of things. What I love about God is that He places a worth on humanity that is out of this world. Like infinite value. 

Hi Read

If I go by what is written in the bible then I cannot agree that god places infinite value on all men. He commanded the chosen to kill and dteal from other men, wholesale slaughter of his creation.

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On 9/23/2023 at 2:29 AM, eight bits said:

He posted a few hours ago:

On the larger question, while I think the topic might interest him, there's nothing SDA about Grim's postings.

Hi Eight Bits

Absolutely and he is not anti-science either

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2 hours ago, eight bits said:

We can learn our way out of those, though, which suggests that we learned our way into them (rather than them being something inherent in the brain, the way the dopamine reward system inheres in the brain). I think there are cultural variations, too, which if so would be another sign of something learned.

We're in tricky territory. When friend and colleague @XenoFish asserts bluntly

How is that different from a more cautious observer saying "I don't know that there is an inherent meaning" (in human life or being conscious)?"

I mean, we have @Guyver's confident assertion

which he types out on a silicon-based device which computes, a box of ground-up rocks,which some people fear will soon develop artificial intelligence. What is AI if not "rocks that think?" How far is that from "rocks who think?" And if we are who are who's discover meaning, who is to say that the smarter rocks will not discover meaning, too?

I think it's a complicated problem.

As to brains in all of this, if AI pans out, then a new fallacy will be revealed: maybe they will call it the organ meat fallacy (that the properties of brains are the properties of consciousness in general). As if we were discussing how to cool a heat engine, and somebody started talking about the finer points of sweat glands as the only way to accomplish that.

You bring in an excellent point on cognitive biases/heuristics. Due to the ability to learn our way out of them this does suggest they are not inherent in the same way as the dopamine reward system. Dopamine, as you mentioned, is a neurochemical associated with reward and motivation that is indeed inherent in the brain's functioning.

Regarding your suggestion that we can learn our way out of these biases, it is true that awareness and education can help mitigate the impact of cognitive biases. By understanding the various cognitive biases and heuristics at play, individuals can become more conscious of their own biases and work towards making more objective and informed decisions.

 

Thanks for the feedback. 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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2 hours ago, Guyver said:

Well, I mean I can't argue against anything you just said.  But, the notion we are discussing is whether or not life has any meaning.  I'm arguing that life does have meaning because living things affect outcomes on this planet which is a subset of the universe.  Even if there is no one to acknowledge it, or who cares....because different actions have an effect on future outcomes, the actions themselves have meaning in the universe.  

I can see your point, too. While it is true that our actions as living beings can have consequences and impact the outcomes on Earth, whether these actions inherently possess meaning in the broader scope of the universe is a matter of interpretation for me, for you not so much. But, no worries it is a big question.

One could propose that meaning is a subjective concept, dependent on the perspective and values of conscious beings. In this view, the universe itself may not assign any inherent meaning to our actions. Instead, meaning is created by individuals or societies as they attribute significance to certain actions and outcomes. From this perspective, the meaning of life is a construct that humans and other conscious beings create for themselves. I line up with Xeno on this point.

 It is also worth considering that the question of whether life has any objective, predetermined meaning is a philosophical one. Different philosophical, spiritual, and religious traditions have offered various explanations and interpretations on this matter. 
 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Different philosophical, spiritual, and religious traditions have offered various explanations and interpretations on this matter. 

We need a reason to live, to exist. While there is no set meaning in the universe/reality. As you mention there are systems that give an artifical purpose and meaning to that existence. Nihilism is basically the blank canvas. 

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2 hours ago, Guyver said:

But, to have purpose is to have meaning, even if it's not acknowledged by anyone.  Everything that serves a purpose does have meaning.  

image.jpeg.aa6b47a1ab598186a403f65972c9f709.jpeg

This old style windmill has a purpose, and it has meaning.  It was very important to the people who built it back in the day.  But, the windmill has no understanding of it.  Since the windmill is not a living being, it has no meaning or purpose and it doesn't need one.  The windmill is not going to contemplate it's place in the universe, but we do.  

Yes, I agree that meaning is a concept we understand.  The universe may be like the windmill, it may have no idea of its function since it is not an intelligent entity.....unless it is and we just don't know it.  Scientifically it doesn't make any sense that the universe would be self-aware, there are no mechanisms that we are aware of that would allow for it.  But, is that certain?  IDK.  But, since we are a part of the universe, at the very least it can be said that the universe does have understanding and purpose, in the sense that we are a subset of that greater thing and we have understanding. 

From your perspective purpose and meaning are interconnected. While purpose can give direction and intention to our actions, there will be  subjective and objective meaning too.

Subjective meaning refers to the personal significance and value an individual attributes to their actions and experiences. In this context, one's actions may possess meaning if they align with their personal values, goals, or desires. However, this subjective meaning may vary from person to person.

And, objective meaning refers to a universal or inherent purpose that exists outside of individual interpretations. It is the idea that there is an ultimate, predetermined meaning to life that applies to all living beings, independent of personal beliefs or desires.

For me the question of whether objective meaning exists is a topic of philosophical debate, and different schools of thought provide varying perspectives. Some argue that objective meaning can be derived from religious or spiritual beliefs, while others propose that it can be found through rational reasoning or existentialist philosophies.

Without an objective framework for meaning, it becomes challenging to get over the hurdle that all actions inherently possess universal meaning. While our actions may have consequences and serve specific purposes within the context of our lives or the planet, it is unclear whether they possess an inherent, universal meaning in the larger scope of the universe.

Over to you. 

Edited by Sherapy
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4 hours ago, Guyver said:

The problem is that there are no smarter rocks because rocks are not biological organisms.  

Doctor Who explored that idea, of a silicon based intelligence, in the story “The Bounty of Ceres”. The gist (iirc) being electrons travel slowly through a silicon matrix rather than organic/carbon based matrix therefore a silicon based lifeform’s thoughts would be ponderous and slow. Geologically slow. 
We might not recognise a sentient silicon based life form as life because of the speed of its cognition (ie if I kick a rock, and four months later it kicks the next person it sees thinking it’s me). 

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1 minute ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Doctor Who explored that idea, of a silicon based intelligence, in the story “The Bounty of Ceres”. The gist (iirc) being electrons travel slowly through a silicon matrix rather than organic/carbon based matrix therefore a silicon based lifeform’s thoughts would be ponderous and slow. Geologically slow. 
We might not recognise a sentient silicon based life form as life because of the speed of its cognition (ie if I kick a rock, and four months later it kicks the next person it sees thinking it’s me). 

So did the original Star Trek in the episode “The Devil in the Dark”.  The idea of silicon based life is interesting imo.

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Just now, Antigonos said:

So did the original Star Trek in the episode “The Devil in the Dark”.  The idea of silicon based life is interesting imo.

Ohh yes, so it did! 
brilliant story, and one of the few where Bones’ medical skills were as important to the resolution as whatever magic powers they gave Spock that week. 

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23 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Ohh yes, so it did! 
brilliant story, and one of the few where Bones’ medical skills were as important to the resolution as whatever magic powers they gave Spock that week. 

“I’m a doctor, not a bricklayer!”

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1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Doctor Who explored that idea, of a silicon based intelligence, in the story “The Bounty of Ceres”. The gist (iirc) being electrons travel slowly through a silicon matrix rather than organic/carbon based matrix therefore a silicon based lifeform’s thoughts would be ponderous and slow. Geologically slow. 
We might not recognise a sentient silicon based life form as life because of the speed of its cognition (ie if I kick a rock, and four months later it kicks the next person it sees thinking it’s me). 

Yes, but the silicon based apparatus I'm typing this on is generally much faster than my nervous system in any task we both can do.

When we are "working together," the computer is doing something else most of the time, checking in once in a while to see if I've finally managed to execute the next keystroke.

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5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I can see your point, too. While it is true that our actions as living beings can have consequences and impact the outcomes on Earth, whether these actions inherently possess meaning in the broader scope of the universe is a matter of interpretation for me, for you not so much. But, no worries it is a big question.

One could propose that meaning is a subjective concept, dependent on the perspective and values of conscious beings. In this view, the universe itself may not assign any inherent meaning to our actions. Instead, meaning is created by individuals or societies as they attribute significance to certain actions and outcomes. From this perspective, the meaning of life is a construct that humans and other conscious beings create for themselves. I line up with Xeno on this point.

 It is also worth considering that the question of whether life has any objective, predetermined meaning is a philosophical one. Different philosophical, spiritual, and religious traditions have offered various explanations and interpretations on this matter. 
 

 

 

Cause and effect strongly imply that outcomes are not random but are determined by causes. That means people can tip the scales, so to speak, by generating appropriate causes to result in beneficial outcomes.

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On 9/22/2023 at 6:19 PM, lightly said:

how old do you believe/think the earth is?

The bible says in the beginning God created the heavens (which most likely included more than earths' atmosphere) and the earth. He created life and its conditions over a spand of 6 days. He rested on the 7th day - Saturday. But following Genealogies from Adam all the way until Christ to now, we're looking at roughly 6,000 years.    

Edited by ReadTheGreatControversyEGW
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On 9/22/2023 at 6:40 PM, XenoFish said:

Here's the thing about that 'value' it is a man-made concept, not God's. You're religion is just a form of meaning making.

That's what you think. It's ok. 

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On 9/22/2023 at 8:15 PM, Hammerclaw said:

God stands by and does nothing while humans slaughter each other by the millions.

Interesting, how people say God don't exist. Now these same people are ready and waiting to give critique on what God is or isn't doing. When God does speak directly to them, they say in their heart, "God don't exist." When He says, 'do this or do that,' no! I will do what I want. Then when something bad happens (war, crime, violence, etc.), who gets the blame? God.

Quote

What infinite value he found them.

Enough to give them the chance to choose how they want to life. 

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16 hours ago, Antigonos said:

Still waiting for an answer @ReadTheGreatControversyEGW

Still nothing, @ReadTheGreatControversyEGW?

I’ll take your repeated refusals to reply to my question as a no, then. You have indeed never actually read any Nietszche for yourself.

It was rhetorical in any case. I already knew the answer from what you wrote in your initial post.

Yet another example amongst a growing number of you expounding on a subject you know nothing about using it as a smokescreen for an excuse to start preaching.  I could set my watch to your predictability.
 

Edited by Antigonos
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56 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

The bible says in the beginning God created the heavens (which most likely included more than earths' atmosphere) and the earth. He created life and its conditions over a spand of 6 days. He rested on the 7th day - Saturday. But following Genealogies from Adam all the way until Christ to now, we're looking at roughly 6,000 years.    

Hi Read

So how do you account for cities and cultures that are fully developed from 6000 years ago before god created the world?

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1 hour ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

The bible says in the beginning God created the heavens (which most likely included more than earths' atmosphere) and the earth. He created life and its conditions over a spand of 6 days. He rested on the 7th day - Saturday. But following Genealogies from Adam all the way until Christ to now, we're looking at roughly 6,000 years.    

Lead disagrees.

9EBA1A6F-E6CA-4339-97FE-123D8EBD6C9F.jpeg

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