Nihilisn, Nationalism & Nazism

[Antigonos]

16 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Read

So how do you account for cities and cultures that are fully developed from 6000 years ago before god created the world?

I mean, what do you even say to such nonsense? It’s pitiful.

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

On 9/23/2023 at 12:19 AM, Ajay0 said:

Eastern philosophy, which is more ancient and has a longer timeline, has stated that values and virtues are not abstract contrivances( as nihilism and existentialism does) , and that their practice would enable a person to get enlightened or Buddhahood

Ok gotcha... how do you explain "enlightenment" or "Buddhahood" ? I researched it in the past but It's still kinda vague to me. 

Buddhism does bring to view some good virtues.   

There are many good and kind things in the world but sometimes when I look closer, it is mixed with something else.  

At the root of virtue is moral excellence, which is based in definitions of right and wrong. When I compare Buddhism and Christianity, or Islam, etc... Jesus exemplifies the highest/complete form of moral excellence, by never doing any wrong at all, and by following a standard of virtue/righteousness that is higher than any other I've seen in the world. He patiently (saying little to nothing, didn't defend Himself, didn't condemn them, didn't fight back, etc.) allowed Himself to be abused and mistreated by the very people He's being crucified to save - and still had time to care about them during the horrific event ("Father forgive them; for they know not what they do"). He could have said, forget it and disappeared just like that, or cause them to all drop dead. Jesus and God are alike ("Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"). The Lion (judge) and the Lamb (meek).    

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

15 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

The Lion (judge) and the Lamb (meek).    

God is both the Lion and the Lamb. That's what I mean.... 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Interesting, how people say God don't exist. Now these same people are ready and waiting to give critique on what God is or isn't doing. When God does speak directly to them, they say in their heart, "God don't exist." When He says, 'do this or do that,' no! I will do what I want. Then when something bad happens (war, crime, violence, etc.), who gets the blame? God.

Enough to give them the chance to choose how they want to life. 

Just giving credit where credit is due. A child would be punished for not taking better care of his toys than this God conceptualization of yours does his. It's typical of people like you who loudly proclaim what they perceive as the good of their God fantasy, while humming, loudly and turning a blind eye to what their all-powerful deity allows to have existed, exists and still persists. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[+joc]

1 hour ago, Antigonos said:

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Read

So how do you account for cities and cultures that are fully developed from 6000 years ago before god created the world?

I mean, what do you even say to such nonsense? It’s pitiful.

I wonder...all of these UAP blips on radar...what if they were the Annanaki...and they suddenly showed us themselves and declared themselves God...would the SDA worship them?

[Guyver]

8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

From your perspective purpose and meaning are interconnected. While purpose can give direction and intention to our actions, there will be  subjective and objective meaning too.

Subjective meaning refers to the personal significance and value an individual attributes to their actions and experiences. In this context, one's actions may possess meaning if they align with their personal values, goals, or desires. However, this subjective meaning may vary from person to person.

And, objective meaning refers to a universal or inherent purpose that exists outside of individual interpretations. It is the idea that there is an ultimate, predetermined meaning to life that applies to all living beings, independent of personal beliefs or desires.

For me the question of whether objective meaning exists is a topic of philosophical debate, and different schools of thought provide varying perspectives. Some argue that objective meaning can be derived from religious or spiritual beliefs, while others propose that it can be found through rational reasoning or existentialist philosophies.

Without an objective framework for meaning, it becomes challenging to get over the hurdle that all actions inherently possess universal meaning. While our actions may have consequences and serve specific purposes within the context of our lives or the planet, it is unclear whether they possess an inherent, universal meaning in the larger scope of the universe.

Over to you. 

Again, I don’t disagree with anything you said.  You sound like Science Class. The only thing I might add is….

Whether or not life is predetermined is not necessarily relevant though is it?  Life is.  Whether we and billions like us are predetermined or not, we do exist.  That alone should be proof enough that life does have meaning on some level for everyone, IMO.  As you said, due to subjective opinion, not everyone will agree with this, and that’s ok by me.  
 

I think I have stated my argument and position clearly enough. We are unique among other known species because of our ability to consider things we are discussing.  Is that special?  You bet.  Does that give it meaning, absolutely from our frame of reference.  When considering the barren end of our planet and extrapolating forward billions of years or how ever long that may be as Xeno has done….we are in a sense promoting an imaginary future.  It could be that way, but even if it is, that’s a long way off.  We live here and now.  So, to say that life has no meaning, when we are actually experiencing it at this moment and effecting the world around us in some way each and every day….I guess I’m just disagreeing with the central tenet of Nihilism.

[Guyver]

Regarding the notion of rocks and intelligence.  Rocks can only become intelligent if they were intelligently designed.  Rocks don’t don’t become intelligently designed through natural processes……unless one would wish to argue that WE ourselves are the natural process that gave rise to intelligent rocks.

[Ajay0]

1 hour ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Ok gotcha... how do you explain "enlightenment" or "Buddhahood" ? I researched it in the past but It's still kinda vague to me. 

Buddhism does bring to view some good virtues.   

There are many good and kind things in the world but sometimes when I look closer, it is mixed with something else.  

At the root of virtue is moral excellence, which is based in definitions of right and wrong. When I compare Buddhism and Christianity, or Islam, etc... Jesus exemplifies the highest/complete form of moral excellence, by never doing any wrong at all, and by following a standard of virtue/righteousness that is higher than any other I've seen in the world. He patiently (saying little to nothing, didn't defend Himself, didn't condemn them, didn't fight back, etc.) allowed Himself to be abused and mistreated by the very people He's being crucified to save - and still had time to care about them during the horrific event ("Father forgive them; for they know not what they do"). He could have said, forget it and disappeared just like that, or cause them to all drop dead. Jesus and God are alike ("Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"). The Lion (judge) and the Lamb (meek).    

Buddhahood is a state of mind where all the mental defilements related to strong desires in the form of cravings and aversions is eliminated resulting in peace and inner joy of a perpetual nature, not dependent on external objects and events. Therevada Buddhism considers it to be a state where all psychological suffering ceases permanently.

As per Mahayana Buddhism, the Buddha nature is there in all sentient beings , even in the most vicious and negative, so it is just a matter of cleaning the mind of all its unnatural psychological impressions or  sankhara to manifest the Buddha nature within.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saṅkhāra

I personally consider Jesus to be an enlightened being, who had similarly removed his mental defilements and attained the innate Buddha nature, or 'kingdom of God within' as he put it.

[Guyver]

9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

A bit on Nihilism.

https://iep.utm.edu/nihilism/

Among the people of the Earth, the Nihilists must be the absolute most miserable, don’t you think?  I mean, who could even stand that much negativity?  

[eight bits]

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

Regarding the notion of rocks and intelligence.  Rocks can only become intelligent if they were intelligently designed.  Rocks don’t don’t become intelligently designed through natural processes……unless one would wish to argue that WE ourselves are the natural process that gave rise to intelligent rocks.

With respect, I think you are conflating how we humans might arrange something to happen, and so we know that things like that can happen, with human intervention being necessary, being the only way that things like that can happen.

Example: Darwin was able to figure out natural selection by analogy to artificial selection. Plant and animal husbandry by humans.demonstrates the principle (grass can become wheat, grey wolves can become poodles), but the application is to something that happens without human intervention (red wolves became grey wolves and other canids).

The key, in some sense, was for Darwin to figure out what in nature could play the role of the human manipulator. Oddly enough, it was something simple, unintelligent, and purposeless: scarcity manifesting as "selective pressure."

Humans are in a hurry, we only have so long to do anything, and even if we embark on a generations-long project, the whole history of our species is only on the order of a million years or so. Something has to substitute for intelligence to make the natural v. artificial selection analogy work. The something is time and space on scales we can barely imagine (and most humans who have ever lived have lived and died without imagining the scales of time and space we the living can observe for ourselves).

I want to build a computer (a box of ground-up rocks that displays many attributes of intelligence)? I've got 18 months on the outside to get it done before the parts I am bringing together are obsolete, and the design I am using belongs in a museum. I need intelligence to keep things moving at a brisk pace toward a well defined goal. The universe has billions of years to explore combinations of matter. As long as there's something "sticky" about some of those combinations (e.g. a structure can produce copies with similar stucture), then the universe can start with a soup of chemicals and evenutally end up with you and me.

Oh, and because of you and me, the universe also gets boxes of rocks that can think.

OK - that's one way to get smart rocks. Are there any other ways (even one other way)? How would you know? All you know is that some rocks end up "smart" compared with other rocks and compared with many living organisms. And you only know one way that that has happened, which tells you nothing about all the ways it might happen.

[XenoFish]

4 hours ago, Guyver said:

Among the people of the Earth, the Nihilists must be the absolute most miserable, don’t you think?  I mean, who could even stand that much negativity?  

I survived.

 

[XenoFish]

7 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

That's what you think. It's ok. 

I'm right. God is just an idea, a concept that can and is fabricated by people. Religious are crafted for various reasons. The pseudo-god government of the middle eastern god (Christian, Hebrew, Muslim). Islam is just Judaism with a few modifications. 

You do not follow the will of God, you follow the will of man. 

 

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, Guyver said:

Again, I don’t disagree with anything you said.  You sound like Science Class. The only thing I might add is….

Whether or not life is predetermined is not necessarily relevant though is it?  Life is.  Whether we and billions like us are predetermined or not, we do exist.  That alone should be proof enough that life does have meaning on some level for everyone, IMO.  As you said, due to subjective opinion, not everyone will agree with this, and that’s ok by me.  
 

I think I have stated my argument and position clearly enough. We are unique among other known species because of our ability to consider things we are discussing.  Is that special?  You bet.  Does that give it meaning, absolutely from our frame of reference.  When considering the barren end of our planet and extrapolating forward billions of years or how ever long that may be as Xeno has done….we are in a sense promoting an imaginary future.  It could be that way, but even if it is, that’s a long way off.  We live here and now.  So, to say that life has no meaning, when we are actually experiencing it at this moment and effecting the world around us in some way each and every day….I guess I’m just disagreeing with the central tenet of Nihilism.

I understand your perspective. You are asserting that the existence of life itself, including our capacity for contemplation and influence on the world around us, suggests that life does indeed have meaning, at least from our subjective human frame of reference. Moreover, you find the idea of extrapolating billions of years into the future to argue against the meaning of life as less relevant, your position is we should focus on the here and now.

I cannot refute your personal belief or experience of finding meaning in life, I am only offering a broader perspective.
 

Nihilism as a philosophical stance questions the existence of inherent or objective meaning in life, proposing that life is ultimately without purpose or significance. However, it does not negate the potential for individuals to find subjective meaning through personal experiences, relationships, achievements, and a multitude of other factors.

Nihilism challenges the idea of universal or transcendent meaning, but it doesn't dismiss the possibility of individuals finding meaning within their own lives. Different philosophical and existential perspectives also offer alternative ways to explore and find meaning in life, often emphasizing human agency, creativity, and the values we choose to uphold.

Ultimately, the question of whether life has inherent meaning is one of personal interpretation and belief. It is up to each individual to determine this themselves. 

 

 

[+Sherapy]

12 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Cause and effect strongly imply that outcomes are not random but are determined by causes. That means people can tip the scales, so to speak, by generating appropriate causes to result in beneficial outcomes.

 

 While cause and effect can and do play a significant role in shaping outcomes, there can be multiple factors influencing any given situation too. Our actions may contribute to a complex web of interconnected causes, but other factors beyond our control can also have an impact. So, attributing all outcomes solely to our actions might oversimplify the intricate and multifaceted nature of reality.

For ex:

Parkinson's Disease: Parkinson's is a neurodegenerative disorder that primarily affects movement. While certain lifestyle factors and environmental exposures may contribute to the development of Parkinson's, there is also a significant genetic component. Mutations in specific genes, such as the LRRK2 gene, have been linked to an increased risk of developing the disease. In cases where someone inherits these genetic mutations, the development of Parkinson's may occur independently of any specific actions taken by the individual. This demonstrates that outcomes can be influenced by factors beyond our control, such as genetic predispositions.

Alzheimer's Disease: Alzheimer's is a progressive brain disorder that impacts memory, thinking, and behavior. While the exact causes of Alzheimer's are still not fully understood, both genetic and environmental factors are believed to play a role. Certain gene variations, such as those involved in the production of amyloid beta plaques and tau tangles, are associated with an increased risk of developing Alzheimer's. Again, this suggests that outcomes related to Alzheimer's can be influenced by genetic factors that may not be directly within our control.

 

 

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

8 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

Buddhahood is a state of mind where all the mental defilements related to strong desires in the form of cravings and aversions is eliminated resulting in peace and inner joy of a perpetual nature, not dependent on external objects and events. Therevada Buddhism considers it to be a state where all psychological suffering ceases permanently

So how do you accomplish this? Do you believe that such a state can be permanently achieved, moment by moment, every hour of every single day throughout a person's life, without the aide of some spiritual/supernatural influence/power? If so, how? I'm just curious. You don't have to reply if it doesn't interest you. Thanks. 

[lightly]

12 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

The bible says in the beginning God created the heavens (which most likely included more than earths' atmosphere) and the earth. He created life and its conditions over a spand of 6 days. He rested on the 7th day - Saturday. 

Thanks read,  I thought you’d say 6000 years as the age of the earth..I guess that’s the ‘biblical’ estimation?     I brought up fossils ,wondering how you might explain they’re existence.???    In part of the area we spend winters in the S. Ca. desert, the Imperial Valley,  we find millions of fossilized sea shells .   The area is said to have been part of an ocean 4-5 million years ago.     I just have to ask, how do you explain fossils forming within 6000 years?          This website talks about the ancient  Imperial Sea  https://www.ivpressonline.com/life/desertmuseum/many-signs-of-underwater-life-remain-in-desert/article_bde31b82-8863-5618-927f-d1fe5bc4dae4.html#:~:text=Four to five million years,was a flourishing marine ecosystem.

[+Hammerclaw]

29 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 

 While cause and effect can and do play a significant role in shaping outcomes, there can be multiple factors influencing any given situation too. Our actions may contribute to a complex web of interconnected causes, but other factors beyond our control can also have an impact. So, attributing all outcomes solely to our actions might oversimplify the intricate and multifaceted nature of reality.

For ex:

Parkinson's Disease: Parkinson's is a neurodegenerative disorder that primarily affects movement. While certain lifestyle factors and environmental exposures may contribute to the development of Parkinson's, there is also a significant genetic component. Mutations in specific genes, such as the LRRK2 gene, have been linked to an increased risk of developing the disease. In cases where someone inherits these genetic mutations, the development of Parkinson's may occur independently of any specific actions taken by the individual. This demonstrates that outcomes can be influenced by factors beyond our control, such as genetic predispositions.

Alzheimer's Disease: Alzheimer's is a progressive brain disorder that impacts memory, thinking, and behavior. While the exact causes of Alzheimer's are still not fully understood, both genetic and environmental factors are believed to play a role. Certain gene variations, such as those involved in the production of amyloid beta plaques and tau tangles, are associated with an increased risk of developing Alzheimer's. Again, this suggests that outcomes related to Alzheimer's can be influenced by genetic factors that may not be directly within our control.

 

 

Negative causes, negative results. We can only influence the outcome as best we can under such circumstance. We play our small part on the stage of life and little more. Control is an illusion. Life is like a swift-flowing river. We can't control its currents; we can only navigate them.

[XenoFish]

9 hours ago, Guyver said:

Among the people of the Earth, the Nihilists must be the absolute most miserable, don’t you think?  I mean, who could even stand that much negativity?  

Perhaps I should clarify my position. The depression I went through lead me to nihilism. Nothing mattered, we're just a pile of atoms, on a dying planet, and nothing we do will last, then eventual like all the others before us be forgotten.

Then that realization of meaninglessness and that nothing mattered was freedom. The freedom to chose how we live our lives. 

Just because nothing matters doesn't mean we can have fun sometimes. 

I took the advice of Camus and I imagined sisphysus happy. Because at the end of it all, dust and rust with no one winning the game of life. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by XenoFish
Can not spell today

[Guyver]

7 hours ago, eight bits said:

With respect, I think you are conflating how we humans might arrange something to happen, and so we know that things like that can happen, with human intervention being necessary, being the only way that things like that can happen.

 

With respect back to you, I don't think I'm conflating anything.  Evolution is a natural process that occurs within populations of living organisms.  Rocks are not living organisms, and therefore have no ability to inherit genetic changes leading to evolution.  Rocks will all ways be rocks.  They can undergo changes of state, but not evolution.

And furthermore, when you speak of rocks comprising computers, A.I. machines, and the like, I believe you are offering a misnomer.  Rocks don't become computers, and there's more to computers than rocks.  Firstly, we would have to make the distinction between rocks and minerals, because they are not the same.  

Rocks exist in three types, igneous, sedimentary, and metamorphic.  Igneous being from magma, sedimentary - from compressed sediments, and metamorphic which indicates a change of state from existing rock subjected to external forces and pressures.  These are not made into computers or other "intelligent machines." 

It would be closer to the truth in your reasoning to speak of minerals being made into machines, not rocks.  Certain minerals are used in the composition of some computer parts, silicon being the primary mineral of concern.

"  Computer chips are typically manufactured in factories called fabrication plants or fabs. They are made from silicon, a common chemical element found in sand. Silicon is a semiconductor, which means its electrical conductivity falls somewhere between metals like copper and insulators like glass."

In any event, it is the integrated circuit that makes computers work.  The integrated circuit was invented back in the late 50's and has gone through tremendous and rapid evolution over a short span of time.

Here is an integrated circuit.  Does this look anything like a rock or mineral to you?

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Perhaps I should clarify my position. The depression I went through lead me to nihilism. Nothing mattered, we're just a pile of atoms, on a dying planet, and nothing we do will last, then eventual like all the others before us be forgotten.

Then that realization of meaninglessness and that nothing mattered was freedom. The freedom to chose how we live our lives. 

Just because nothing matters doesn't mean we can have fun sometimes. 

I took the advice of Camus and I imagined sisphysus happy. Because at the end of it all, dust and rust with no one winning the game of life. 

I thought antibiotics would cure that. 

[Guyver]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Perhaps I should clarify my position. The depression I went through lead me to nihilism. Nothing mattered, we're just a pile of atoms, on a dying planet, and nothing we do will last, then eventual like all the others before us be forgotten.

Then that realization of meaninglessness and that nothing mattered was freedom. The freedom to chose how we live our lives. 

Just because nothing matters doesn't mean we can have fun sometimes. 

I took the advice of Camus and I imagined sisphysus happy. Because at the end of it all, dust and rust with no one winning the game of life. 

OK.....well, that is fine, and it is something that works for you.  However, I must disagree that we are just a pile of atoms and nothing matters.  First of all, we are are a remarkable combination of atoms with a type of form, function, and synergy that boggles the mind.  Just take a look at the image of the integrated circuit I just posted.  It too is a pile of atoms, but those atoms have been arranged - intentionally - to produce remarkable capability and complexity.  We use the byproducts of those integrated circuits every day now in everything from cars to computers.  When you play a fun computer game with mesmerizing blinky lights, activating your brain and neural activity.....you are having fun.  

If nothing else, shouldn't our lives have some meaning simply because we can have fun?  Rocks don't have any fun.  They also have no worries or fears.  

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, Guyver said:

OK.....well, that is fine, and it is something that works for you.  However, I must disagree that we are just a pile of atoms and nothing matters.  First of all, we are are a remarkable combination of atoms with a type of form, function, and synergy that boggles the mind.  Just take a look at the image of the integrated circuit I just posted.  It too is a pile of atoms, but those atoms have been arranged - intentionally - to produce remarkable capability and complexity.  We use the byproducts of those integrated circuits every day now in everything from cars to computers.  When you play a fun computer game with mesmerizing blinky lights, activating your brain and neural activity.....you are having fun.  

If that's the meaning you wish to apply in your life, great. I got no issue with that.

I just know that my existence doesn't matter. I'll one day be eternally forgotten and all that I've done shall vanish. That's how it goes. I often wonder why I bother to take anything serious.

[Guyver]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

If that's the meaning you wish to apply in your life, great. I got no issue with that.

I just know that my existence doesn't matter. I'll one day be eternally forgotten and all that I've done shall vanish. That's how it goes. I often wonder why I bother to take anything serious.

Maybe what you're saying is true.  But, even if it is....how can you ignore the meaning you are experiencing right now?  You're talking to me on a computer, and not only that but other people are listening and giving you likes for the things you are saying.  All of your experiences and moments of your life have shaped you into the person you are right now.  Many of the things you have experienced are interesting to other people besides yourself.  That means you have had an impact on not only this forum, but also the world at large to some degree.  So, you do matter.  You matter now.  You might not matter in a billion years.....but you matter now. 

[XenoFish]

Just now, Guyver said:

Maybe what you're saying is true.  But, even if it is....how can you ignore the meaning you are experiencing right now?  You're talking to me on a computer, and not only that but other people are listening and giving you likes for the things you are saying.  All of your experiences and moments of your life have shaped you into the person you are right now.  Many of the things you have experienced are interesting to other people besides yourself.  That means you have had an impact on not only this forum, but also the world at large to some degree.  So, you do matter.  You matter now.  You might not matter in a billion years.....but you matter now. 

You might be right, but I just don't see a point. Sure, I'm a semi hairless primate that click clacking on a keypad. Etching what we call words on a virtual cave wall. Some of my words might seem smart or important, maybe. I just don't apply a meaning to it all. The value is minimal and temporary. 

I just can't see a reason to think any of this is important. Sorry if that seem like I'm in a 'mood', I'm not. I just have a bleak view of reality. This existence just isn't worth it. 

[eight bits]

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

With respect back to you, I don't think I'm conflating anything.  Evolution is a natural process that occurs within populations of living organisms.  Rocks are not living organisms, and therefore have no ability to inherit genetic changes leading to evolution.  Rocks will all ways be rocks.  They can undergo changes of state, but not evolution.

OK, I withdraw the claim that you conflated anything.

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

Here is an integrated circuit.  Does this look anything like a rock or mineral to you?

Sand, metal, some rare earths, ... yes, it looks like a lot of ground up and otherwise processed rock to me.

I think we are talking past each other. I don't see the relevance of performance (integrated circuits) to capability (what other combinations of matter might also exhibit "intelligent behavior").

I do see an irony that just as the God Squad argues for an indispensible role for gods by variations on "the watch implies the watchmaker," you seem to argue for an indispensible role for human beings in order that rocks achieve their inherent potential to participate in arrangements that compute (the integrated circuit implies somebody like our colleague DieChecker).

I no more expect rocks to spontaneously form computers before my eyes than I expect springs and gears to spontaneously form watches. Nevertheless, I do not conclude that gods are necessary for there to be living beings, nor do I conclude that people are necessary for matter to compute. Whether an arrangement of rocks that groks has or will actually happen somewhere in the universe I don't know. If you know that it hasn't and won't, then I welcome your proof.

Edited September 25, 2023 by eight bits