Philosophy meets physics in the quest to understand consciousness

[UM-Bot]

The nature of consciousness and whether or not it pervades the entire universe has long remained a topic of debate.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/370625/philosophy-meets-physics-in-the-quest-to-understand-consciousness

[papageorge1]

Wikipedia:

In the philosophy of mind, panpsychism is the view that the mind or a mindlike aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality. It is also described as a theory that "the mind is a fundamental feature of the world which exists throughout the universe."

 

As one who has found Advaita Vedanta (Hindu non-dual=God/Brahman and the universe are not-two) philosophy to be the most reasonable/believable theory out there I am going to give 'panpsychism' a basic thumbs-up.

[Piney]

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Wikipedia:

In the philosophy of mind, panpsychism is the view that the mind or a mindlike aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality. It is also described as a theory that "the mind is a fundamental feature of the world which exists throughout the universe."

 

As one who has found Advaita Vedanta (Hindu non-dual=God/Brahman and the universe are not-two) philosophy

Why can't you just say your pantheistic? Less typing. 

[papageorge1]

10 minutes ago, Piney said:

Why can't you just say you’re pantheistic? Less typing. 

Because Advaita Vedanta says more than ‘pantheism’ does.

[+Sherapy]

20 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Wikipedia:

In the philosophy of mind, panpsychism is the view that the mind or a mindlike aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality. It is also described as a theory that "the mind is a fundamental feature of the world which exists throughout the universe."

 

As one who has found Advaita Vedanta (Hindu non-dual=God/Brahman and the universe are not-two) philosophy to be the most reasonable/believable theory out there I am going to give 'panpsychism' a basic thumbs-up.

 

Panpsychism proposes that consciousness is an intrinsic property of all matter, suggesting that even fundamental particles could possess some form of basic experience. While this idea has gained attention and interest among some philosophers and scientists, Panpsychism remains a speculative theory and is not widely accepted within the scientific community, there are some serious issues one being that panpsychism avoids the “hard problem of consciousness.”

It is worth mentioning PG that the predominant scientific view is that consciousness is indeed closely tied to brain activity. The brain is thought to play a crucial role in generating consciousness and supporting various subjective experiences. This position is supported by extensive empirical evidence and research in neuroscience, cognitive psychology, and related fields.

Studies have consistently shown correlations between brain states and conscious experiences. Brain imaging techniques, such as fMRI and EEG, have provided insights into the neural processes underlying different aspects of consciousness, such as perception, attention, memory, and self-awareness. Moreover, damage to specific brain regions can result in profound changes in consciousness, further supporting the brain's role in generating conscious experiences.

Furthermore, experiments involving brain stimulation, such as transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) or electrical brain stimulation, have demonstrated direct effects on conscious perception and subjective experiences. These findings strongly suggest a causal relationship between brain activity and consciousness.

While the brain is considered the primary foundation for consciousness, yet even with this being said the specific mechanisms by which neural processes give rise to subjective experiences are still not fully understood. The study of consciousness remains a complex and active area of research, for now unless this changes the evidence is a lot stronger for the brain as the source of consciousness. 

 

 

[papageorge1]

14 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Panpsychism remains a speculative theory and is not widely accepted within the scientific community, there are some serious issues one being that panpsychism avoids the “hard problem of consciousness.”

 

Not sure what you mean. It sounds like it solves the 'hard problem of consciousness'. 

14 hours ago, Sherapy said:

It is worth mentioning PG that the predominant scientific view is that consciousness is indeed closely tied to brain activity. The brain is thought to play a crucial role in generating consciousness and supporting various subjective experiences. This position is supported by extensive empirical evidence and research in neuroscience, cognitive psychology, and related fields.

There are many intellectual sources on both sides of the issue.

14 hours ago, Sherapy said:

 

 

Studies have consistently shown correlations between brain states and conscious experiences. Brain imaging techniques, such as fMRI and EEG, have provided insights into the neural processes underlying different aspects of consciousness, such as perception, attention, memory, and self-awareness. Moreover, damage to specific brain regions can result in profound changes in consciousness, further supporting the brain's role in generating conscious experiences.

 

Nobody is doubting the brain's role in the physical expression of consciousness. The basic argument is that it can be likened to a television and consciousness is the transmitting station. If the TV has its hardware modified or damaged this can change the way the picture and sound are produced. But without the transmitting station there will never be a picture in the first place.

 

Personally, my biggest doubt against the 'brain produces consciousness' position is the many different types of so-called paranormal events suggesting the existence of intelligence without an operating physical brain. To me this becomes real-world evidence..

[+Sherapy]

7 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Not sure what you mean. It sounds like it solves the 'hard problem of consciousness'. 

There are many intellectual sources on both sides of the issue.

Nobody is doubting the brain's role in the physical expression of consciousness. The basic argument is that it can be likened to a television and consciousness is the transmitting station. If the TV has its hardware modified or damaged this can change the way the picture and sound are produced. But without the transmitting station there will never be a picture in the first place.

 

Personally, my biggest doubt against the 'brain produces consciousness' position is the many different types of so-called paranormal events suggesting the existence of intelligence without an operating physical brain. To me this becomes real-world evidence..

What matters is the empirical evidence. You have an unacknowledged bias and I will leave you to it.

 

All the best PG. Moving on.

[papageorge1]

9 hours ago, Sherapy said:

What matters is the empirical evidence. You have an unacknowledged bias and I will leave you to it.

 

All the best PG. Moving on.

Perhaps you may have the unacknowledged bias? But I leave that to your unbiased consideration.

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Perhaps you may have the unacknowledged bias? But I leave that to your unbiased consideration.

PG asking for evidence to arrive at a conclusion is not inherently a bias. In fact, it is a logical and rational approach to reaching conclusions or forming beliefs. Requesting evidence is a crucial part of critical thinking and the scientific method, where claims or hypotheses are examined and supported by empirical evidence.

Bias arises when there is a preexisting inclination or prejudice that influences the interpretation or selection of evidence. However, seeking evidence in itself is not considered biased as it demonstrates a commitment to objective inquiry and a willingness to consider different perspectives.

At this time, Panpsychism is a philosophical idea that suggests consciousness is a fundamental aspect of the universe and is present in all matter. While it is an intriguing concept, the scientific community does not currently have empirical evidence to support or confirm it. 

 

When I say that there is no evidence to support a claim or hypothesis at a given time, it simply means that based on the available information and research, there isn’t sufficient evidence to confirm or validate the claim. However, it's important to remember that scientific knowledge is constantly evolving and new evidence can emerge in the future and if it does I will revise based on the evidence, for now panpsychism is speculative, period.

 

 

[+joc]

On 9/28/2023 at 8:50 AM, Sherapy said:

While this idea has gained attention and interest among some philosophers and scientists, Panpsychism remains a speculative theory and is not widely accepted within the scientific community, there are some serious issues one being that panpsychism avoids the “hard problem of consciousness.”

My girlfriend in college gave me a Pet Rock.  I still have it.  In all these years though...it never said one damn thing to me.  Not one.  Bith! 

[papageorge1]

4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

PG asking for evidence to arrive at a conclusion is not inherently a bias. In fact, it is a logical and rational approach to reaching conclusions or forming beliefs. Requesting evidence is a crucial part of critical thinking and the scientific method, where claims or hypotheses are examined and supported by empirical evidence.

Bias arises when there is a preexisting inclination or prejudice that influences the interpretation or selection of evidence. However, seeking evidence in itself is not considered biased as it demonstrates a commitment to objective inquiry and a willingness to consider different perspectives.

At this time, Panpsychism is a philosophical idea that suggests consciousness is a fundamental aspect of the universe and is present in all matter. While it is an intriguing concept, the scientific community does not currently have empirical evidence to support or confirm it. 

 

When I say that there is no evidence to support a claim or hypothesis at a given time, it simply means that based on the available information and research, there isn’t sufficient evidence to confirm or validate the claim. However, it's important to remember that scientific knowledge is constantly evolving and new evidence can emerge in the future and if it does I will revise based on the evidence, for now panpsychism is speculative, period.

 

 

I believe I mention a world of anecdotal, investigative and experimental so-called paranormal evidence affecting my belief. My belief is not based only on philosophical conjecture as you seem to imply.

I am not doing science. I am judging ‘all things considered what is most reasonable for me to believe’. I feel real-world things do happen that would be impossible in the materialist understanding of consciousness.

I think I have said these things before with you. 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

Most here are aware that I practice the Buddhist philosophy of spiritual. The goal of Buddhists is to reach a level of enlightenment also known as Nirvana. When, this level of consciousness is achieved one becomes part of the cosmic consciousness that surrounds everything everywhere universally. At this point, one's consciousness is separated from the bonds of the physical human condition for all eternity.

[+Sherapy]

3 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I believe I mention a world of anecdotal, investigative and experimental so-called paranormal evidence affecting my belief. My belief is not based only on philosophical conjecture as you seem to imply.

I am not doing science. I am judging ‘all things considered what is most reasonable for me to believe’. I feel real-world things do happen that would be impossible in the materialist understanding of consciousness.

I think I have said these things before with you. 

 

Indeed, you are not utilizing critical thinking by choice. You are simply sharing your beliefs that is why I said I leave you to your bias. 
 

With that being said, I truly wish you the best. 

[Dejarma]

20 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

When, this level of consciousness is achieved one becomes part of the cosmic consciousness that surrounds everything everywhere universally.

no matter what you believe, how deep you believe in it... Nothing get's away with mundane 'FACTS' in life/ reality- for example:

rent/ mortgage has to be paid--- your car has broken down, how do I get to work, get shopping, toilet's blocked, I've got to spend Christmas with in laws who I don't like, etc etc!!

Does spiritual enlightenment (in whatever shape or form) solve these problems, or just make you feel better about them?

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

no matter what you believe, how deep you believe in it... Nothing get's away with mundane 'FACTS' in life/ reality- for example:

I agree!

8 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

rent/ mortgage has to be paid--- your car has broken down, how do I get to work, get shopping, toilet's blocked, I've got to spend Christmas with in laws who I don't like, etc etc!!

Does spiritual enlightenment (in whatever shape or form) solve these problems, or just make you feel better about them?

This is where Karma and reincarnation play roles in the Buddhist Philosophy. According to Karma we are responsible for everything we do while we are living. If you lead a good life and treat others in a positive manner you are rewarded with good Karma, and if we live dishonest lives we are rewarded with bad Karma.

Buddhists strive to purify their Karma by doing more good thing than bad, because all bad Karma can only be erased by an equal action of good Karma or vis versa. Now, when someone dies their Karma follows them into their next reincarnation, that is the entire purpose of reincarnation according to the Buddhist Philosophy.

Which simply means that rebirth will continue, until one purifies their Karma which means simply that the good and bad Karma is finally balanced out. Once this is accomplished the individual will experience enlightenment, and when they die reincarnation stops, and their next level of consciousness which is Nirvana will allow the individual to become part of the cosmic consciousness.

Now what I said is a very condensed version of events, I apologize but I don't have the time to fully explain the process. Also, I am also not well versed enough to explain it in detail because I am a novice!

Hope this helps!

[Dejarma]

3 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Hope this helps!

no it does not to be honest- does it solve the problems i put forward- yes or no?

[+joc]

1 hour ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Most here are aware that I practice the Buddhist philosophy of spiritual. The goal of Buddhists is to reach a level of enlightenment also known as Nirvana. When, this level of consciousness is achieved one becomes part of the cosmic consciousness that surrounds everything everywhere universally. At this point, one's consciousness is separated from the bonds of the physical human condition for all eternity.

Ah grasshopper!...sooner than later Nirvana dies...and then you become... Foo Fighters! 

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

no it does not to be honest- does it solve the problems i put forward- yes or no?

If you are unable to understand how it applies to your questions, I suggest reading it again because my explanation of good and bad Karma clearly answers you question. If you are still unable to understand how it applies, then our conversation is over on this subject, because at that point I am unwilling to explain it further!

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, joc said:

Ah grasshopper!...sooner than later Nirvana dies...and then you become... Foo Fighters! 

No, that is not exactly accurate when Nirvana dies you gain control of the FOO Fighters!!!!!!

[Dejarma]

3 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

If you are unable to understand how it applies to your questions

what's all this unable to understand bollox!?!?  I'm one clever MFer mate (just my opinion) prove me wrong.... with all due respect you didn't answer the simple question I put forward- so leave it at that then, cheers

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

Just now, Dejarma said:

what's all this unable to understand bollox!?!?  I'm one clever MFer mate (just my opinion) prove me wrong.... with all due respect you didn't answer the simple question I put forward- so leave it at that then, cheers

 

Cheers!

[+joc]

41 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

This is where Karma and reincarnation play roles in the Buddhist Philosophy. According to Karma we are responsible for everything we do while we are living. If you lead a good life and treat others in a positive manner you are rewarded with good Karma, and if we live dishonest lives we are rewarded with bad Karma.

Good things happen to bad people.  Bad things happen to good people.  But mostly...bad things happen to bad people.  Karma might not always be instant...but it always is.

If you look at the Universe...there's a 'flow' to it.  If you swim against the universal currents...you are just  going to be swept away and eventually find yourself on the rocks...no flow...just rocks!  # Karma Rocks!

Personally it's a tightrope walk for a lot of us.

Edited September 30, 2023 by joc

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, joc said:

Good things happen to bad people.  Bad things happen to good people.  But mostly...bad things happen to bad people.  Karma might not always be instant...but it always is.

If you look at the Universe...there's a 'flow' to it.  If you swim against the universal currents...you are just  going to be swept away and eventually find yourself on the rocks...no flow...just rocks!  # Karma Rocks!

Personally it's a tightrope walk for a lot of us.

We are all responsible for our actions good or bad. I also believe that there is a universal cosmic flow that surrounds everything and that's why as far as spiritually is concerned Buddhism is a philosophy I can follow. Also, I believe that Karma is what is responsible for the flow of the Universal currents you speak of about! 

[Tom1200]

16 hours ago, joc said:

My girlfriend in college gave me a Pet Rock.  I still have it.  In all these years though...it never said one damn thing to me.  Not one.  Bith! 

What efforts have you made to really understand its feelings?  It's a well-known fact* that rocks use silence to indicate a state of extreme resentment because you show more attention to girls.  Talk to it more - you might be surprised!

15 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Now, when someone dies their Karma follows them into their next reincarnation, that is the entire purpose of reincarnation according to the Buddhist Philosophy.

Hi Grim.  You know where I'm positioned here: I'm a Skeptic of anything I haven't experienced or can't explain.  That said, your posts are interesting and I'd like to know more.

Why should Karma follow you to a new existence?  That seems really unfair: you start life owing a huge debt of goodness - what chance do you really have of ever breaking such a cycle?

What determines the sort of life into which you're reborn?  It seems to me that on average your opportunities to perform good Karma are more limited if your life is a constant struggle for existence, to scrape together the food and water to sustain life.  More people today live in abject poverty than ever before.  Did they all lead wicked previous lives?

And how can a population increase if we're always being reborn?  Logically some of us must be starting the journey for the first time.  Is this determined at random: are some people just born into wealth and privilege without having earned this through good previous?

In my 20 years' experience as a teacher most bad children are the products of bad upbringing.  Yes, everyone has the option to break the cycle, but does everyone really have the same opportunity to do so?

I think answers to this particular conumdrum are closer than some might suspect.  Will AI develop consciousness and self-awareness?  (Although how would we know, as opposed to simply an algorithm repeating cogito ergo sum faster and faster?)

 

* Taking advantage of 21st century social rules, so words mean whatever I believe they should.

[+joc]

15 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

We are all responsible for our actions good or bad. I also believe that there is a universal cosmic flow that surrounds everything and that's why as far as spiritually is concerned Buddhism is a philosophy I can follow. Also, I believe that Karma is what is responsible for the flow of the Universal currents you speak of about! 

Well, the universal currents I'm taking about are physical flows...because there isn't anything except the flow of matter in the universe.  Nothing.  Dark matter, whatever, it's all physical.  Quantumly or otherwise...there is no 'mental' aspect to the universe.  It is all physical.  How we direct our thoughts has physical consequences.  And the direction of our thoughts, as well as the thought process itself is physical.  Consciousness is a physical manifestation.  It's an illusion.  It must be physical, because all is physical.  Karma is a consequence of how one's physical flows adapt to the universal physical flow. 

But then, I know you don't see it that way because you are following Buddhism and I am following my own logical thought processes.