The REAL search for aliens goes on

[Tom1200]

No mile-long spaceships or mummified remains here, no ancient knowledge or out-of-place tech delivered to our ancestors; just simple, honest research.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66950930

It's long been suspected that life will form anywhere it can.  Whether that's at random, driven purely by chemical reactions that generate increasingly complex molecules, or whether it's driven by a god-like creative force, that's a debate for elsewhere.

Here we can consider the likelihood of simple lifeforms in the oceans of Europa, Titan or Enceladus, and wonder whether Mars once harboured life in its long-gone oceans.

This is how aliens will be discovered: not by sensationalist TV shows or shyster 'experts'.

[Grim Reaper 6]

I believe the most likely simple life forms that theoretically could be discovered on Europa would be what we call on Earth Extremophiles. These creatures were discovered in the not-too-distant past on Volcanic Smoker vents that were located in the extreme depths of our Oceans. The heat generated around these vents in some cases exceeds 400 C, which provides an ecosystem for these creatures in total darkness. These vents also spew a mixture of toxic chemicals that would kill any other life form on earth and these creatures use these chemicals as a food source.

Europa would be an ideal location to look for creatures similar to those described above. Because the moon does have volcanic active on it that was detected by recent probes sent to study Jupiter's moons. It's suspected the cracks in the ice on Europa's surface and the Volcanism are related to extreme pressure created by the gravitational pull Jupiter exerts upon its moon's during their rotation around the planet. Below are some photos of extremophiles that have been discovered in Earths deep Oceans. Please keep in mind that the few photos I am sharing do not scratch the surface of what has been discovered to date.

Here is my favorite extremophile the Tardigrade. This is a very durable little animal, it can survive in outer space for months and once brought back to Earth and rehydrated it will completely come back to life with its ability to reproduce still intact.

JIMHO

Edited September 30, 2023 by Grim Reaper 6

[Grim Reaper 6]

4 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

No mile-long spaceships or mummified remains here, no ancient knowledge or out-of-place tech delivered to our ancestors; just simple, honest research.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66950930

It's long been suspected that life will form anywhere it can.  Whether that's at random, driven purely by chemical reactions that generate increasingly complex molecules, or whether it's driven by a god-like creative force, that's a debate for elsewhere.

Here we can consider the likelihood of simple lifeforms in the oceans of Europa, Titan or Enceladus, and wonder whether Mars once harboured life in its long-gone oceans.

This is how aliens will be discovered: not by sensationalist TV shows or shyster 'experts'.

I thought this thread would attract more interest, I personally think it can produce some very interesting discussions. Hopefully over the next few days more members will post!

[iAlrakis]

3 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I believe the most likely simple life forms that theoretically could be discovered on Europa would be what we call on Earth Extremophiles. These creatures were discovered in the not-too-distant past on Volcanic Smoker vents that were located in the extreme depths of our Oceans. The heat generated around these vents in some cases exceeds 400 C, which provides an ecosystem for these creatures in total darkness. These vents also spew a mixture of toxic chemicals that would kill any other life form on earth and these creatures use these chemicals as a food source.

Europa would be an ideal location to look for creatures similar to those described above. Because the moon does have volcanic active on it that was detected by recent probes sent to study Jupiter's moons. It's suspected the cracks in the ice on Europa's surface and the Volcanism are related to extreme pressure created by the gravitational pull Jupiter exerts upon its moon's during their rotation around the planet. Below are some photos of extremophiles that have been discovered in Earths deep Oceans. Please keep in mind that the few photos I am sharing do not scratch the surface of what has been discovered to date.

Here is my favorite extremophile the Tardigrade. This is a very durable little animal, it can survive in outer space for months and once brought back to Earth and rehydrated it will completely come back to life with its ability to reproduce still intact.

JIMHO

that's pretty much my point of view on this topic

[Grim Reaper 6]

10 hours ago, iAlrakis said:

that's pretty much my point of view on this topic

Thanks I appreciate your support!!!

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

you may find this article about the James Webb Space Telescope that did indeed find an interesting technosignature of life.

NASA's James Webb Space Telescope has detected potential traces of dimethyl sulfide, a chemical only known to be created by phytoplankton on Earth,

 

So it appears, life on an exoplanet has been found

[Grim Reaper 6]

48 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

you may find this article about the James Webb Space Telescope that did indeed find an interesting technosignature of life.

NASA's James Webb Space Telescope has detected potential traces of dimethyl sulfide, a chemical only known to be created by phytoplankton on Earth,

 

So it appears, life on an exoplanet has been found

Hey Earl, that’s an interesting article and while those chemical compounds are produced by phytoplankton on Earth, the scientists openly state that the gases could still possibly be from a natural source. However, in my opinion I think this is a fascinating discovery, and its exactly what I would expect from an exoplanet in the Goldilocks zone of its star if life does exist there!

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Tom1200]

6 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

you may find this article about the James Webb Space Telescope that did indeed find an interesting technosignature of life.

NASA's James Webb Space Telescope has detected potential traces of dimethyl sulfide, a chemical only known to be created by phytoplankton on Earth,

So it appears, life on an exoplanet has been found

As @Grim Reaper 6 has already pointed out there is considerable uncertainty surrounding this result.  They need to a) confirm the discovery and then b) make every conceivable effort to explain it away.  Is there any natural chemical process that could build this compound?  If so it's not proof of life. 

It's an exciting development but we shouldn't leap to grand conclusions.  Read this about Venus as an example of getting it wrong.

https://www.livescience.com/venus-alien-life-claim-debunked

As our telescopes continue to improve and we detect and scan more exoplanets I am confident this is how alien life will first be confirmed.  IMO there are trillions of planets teeming with simple life but maybe only a few with the advanced technologies SETI is searching for.

And the idea that an intelligent, highly-developed species crosses thousands of light-years of space in fragile UFOs just to count our nuclear weapons or abduct chubby Americans...  Well, that's just risible. 

[tmcom]

What you mean that they are pointing the James Webb Telescope at Mars?

[XenoFish]

I do think that life had, does, and will exist at some point in the universe. From simple to complex. However I just don't see it visiting us. Mostly due to the sheer vastness of space and any communications between us and them won't be meaningful. 

I also want to assume if there is some grand purpose to human existence, it may be to spread life to other world. 

Just my take.

[tmcom]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

I do think that life had, does, and will exist at some point in the universe. From simple to complex. However I just don't see it visiting us. Mostly due to the sheer vastness of space and any communications between us and them won't be meaningful. 

I also want to assume if there is some grand purpose to human existence, it may be to spread life to other world. 

Just my take.

There is a grand purpose of human existence which is the reason why they are visiting us,...and stopping us from blowing ourselves up thing.

[XenoFish]

8 minutes ago, tmcom said:

There is a grand purpose of human existence which is the reason why they are visiting us,...and stopping us from blowing ourselves up thing.

That's a belief and assumption, if it's even happening.

[Grim Reaper 6]

Whether there is life on Titan, the largest moon of Saturn, is currently an open question and a topic of scientific assessment and research. Titan is far colder than Earth, but of all the places in the Solar System, Titan is the only place besides Earth known to have liquids in the form of rivers, lakes, and seas on its surface, however they do not consist of water they are made up of Ethane and Methane mixed with water.

Its thick atmosphere is chemically active and rich in carbon compounds. On the surface it is likely that there is a layer of liquid water under its ice shell of the Moons surface. Some scientists speculate that these liquid mixes may provide prebiotic chemistry for living cells different from those on Earth. However, to date this hasn't been proven, and it never will be unless a mission to Titan is organized, where something similar to the Mars landers is sent. 

In 1997, the combined Cassini–Huygens spacecraft was launched from Earth on October 15, 1997. Huygens separated from the Cassini orbiter on December 25, 2004, and landed on Titan on January 14, 2005 near the Adiri region of Titan. The Space and Probe was built and operated by the European Space Agency (ESA), launched by NASA, it was part of the Cassini–Huygens mission and became the first spacecraft to land on Titan.

The probe was designed to gather data for a few hours in the atmosphere, and possibly a short time at the surface. It continued to send data for about 90 minutes after touchdown. 

Here is an actual video of the probes decent that was sent back to earth by the orbiting Cassini Space Craft!!

 

[Abramelin]

6 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

b) make every conceivable effort to explain it away.  Is there any natural chemical process that could build this compound?  If so it's not proof of life. 

The next wiki suggest dimethyl sulfide is an organic compound typically produced by certain living beings, here on earth:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfide

[Abramelin]

13 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The next wiki suggest dimethyl sulfide is an organic compound typically produced by certain living beings, here on earth:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfide

I forgot to add that the same wiki also shows a non-biological way to produce DMS:

In industry dimethyl sulfide is produced by treating hydrogen sulfide with excess methanol over an aluminium oxide catalyst:^[19]

2 CH₃OH + H₂S → (CH₃)₂S + 2 H₂O

[Tom1200]

27 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I forgot to add that the same wiki also shows a non-biological way to produce DMS:

In industry dimethyl sulfide is produced by treating hydrogen sulfide with excess methanol over an aluminium oxide catalyst:^[19]

2 CH₃OH + H₂S → (CH₃)₂S + 2 H₂O

Well spotted.  So the question should be: are there any natural circumstances where this can occur?  Is anyone a Chemical Engineer who could rule this in or out?

It may seem unlikely, but that's not the same as impossible.  Weirder things have happened: consider the odds against self-replicating chemicals evolving into DNA on Earth.  Or the natural nuclear fission reactor in Gabon: wiki/Oklo

It's a very big Universe and lots of very strange things await discovery.  Hopefully one of them is an intelligent species who'll share loads of brilliant tech with us.  I bet they've got 3D tellys that actually work!

[Abramelin]

3 minutes ago, Tom1200 said:

Well spotted.  So the question should be: are there any natural circumstances where this can occur?  Is anyone a Chemical Engineer who could rule this in or out?

The synthesis I posted in my former post can occur in nature without the help of organisms.

Bauxite contains aluminium oxide, hydrogen sulfide is often present in volcanic gasses.

Of course that leaves us methanol:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acscatal.0c02909

I think a non-biological but natural process is possible to produce methanol. It would recquire kind of extreme circumstances...

Btw., a lifetime ago I studied chemistry and worked in an Eastman-Kodak lab for nearly a decade.

Maybe we better summon @astrobeing

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

NASA discovers carbon source on Jupiter’s moon Europa:

NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) has made a groundbreaking discovery on Jupiter’s moon Europa, unveiling the presence of a significant carbon source on its icy surface.

According to NASA, the discovery of carbon dioxide holds significant implications for the search for life beyond Earth and our understanding of Europa’s complex geology.

“On Earth, life likes chemical diversity – the more diversity, the better,” said Geronimo Villanueva of NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center. “We’re carbon-based life. Understanding the chemistry of Europa’s ocean will help us determine whether it’s hostile to life as we know it, or if it might be a good place for life.”

NASA discovers carbon source on Jupiter’s moon Europa (msn.com)

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

14 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

And the idea that an intelligent, highly-developed species crosses thousands of light-years of space in fragile UFOs just to count our nuclear weapons or abduct chubby Americans...  Well, that's just risible. 

Very good post overall, Tom. And this one last sentence gives such a ripe idea, it needs a thread of its own, IMO.

Do advanced beings have the technology to utilize the short cut...? (wormhole, interdimensional travel).
Of course, I cannot prove it, but I know they are here, I am sure that they have the shortcut, if not multiple ones. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

12 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Very good post overall, Tom. And this one last sentence gives such a ripe idea, it needs a thread of its own, IMO.

Do advanced beings have the technology to utilize the short cut...? (wormhole, interdimensional travel).
Of course, I cannot prove it, but I know they are here, I am sure that they have the shortcut, if not multiple ones. 

Well, according to Einstein and Rosen wormholes are theoretically possible, look up their 1935 paper where they talk about the subject, today it is known as an Einstein-Rosen Bridge!

[Grim Reaper 6]

Extreme environments offer an unprecedented opportunity to understand microbial eukaryotic ecology, evolution, and genome biology: Published in Nature August 16, 2023: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-40657-4

[astrobeing]

19 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

NASA discovers carbon source on Jupiter’s moon Europa:

NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) has made a groundbreaking discovery on Jupiter’s moon Europa, unveiling the presence of a significant carbon source on its icy surface.

According to NASA, the discovery of carbon dioxide holds significant implications for the search for life beyond Earth and our understanding of Europa’s complex geology.

Unfortunately abiogenesis is a complicated process through a series of unlikely conditions. Popular media presents it as just a collection of ingredients, as if life will spontaneously appear once they're all mixed together.

[Tom1200]

2 hours ago, astrobeing said:

Unfortunately abiogenesis is a complicated process through a series of unlikely conditions. Popular media presents it as just a collection of ingredients, as if life will spontaneously appear once they're all mixed together.

I hinted at this in post 1.  So what's your take on this?  Is it too unlikely to have happened spontaneously? 

Or - given the vast number of chemical reactions possible over billions of years under every conceivable condition the Universe can offer - isn't it more logical to conclude that abiogenesis in some form or another is actually inevitable?

Does modern science even (claim to) know how life on Earth evolved?  Are there experiments we could set up to establish, once and for all, whether 'life' can arise naturally, spontaneously, out of lifeless chemicals?

[Tom1200]

7 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Well, according to Einstein and Rosen wormholes are theoretically possible, look up their 1935 paper where they talk about the subject, today it is known as an Einstein-Rosen Bridge!

Whether a theoretical, hypothetical construction can even exist, never mind be built, is an interesting distraction.  But it ties in with my major objection to a recurrent theme of UFO enthusiasts:

Would a species capable of warping spacetime to create wormholes spanning vast distances:

• Visit Earth in small numbers in flimsy spacecraft that keep crashing near Area 51 (but nowhere else?)
• Visit Earth just to monitor us (e.g. American nuclear stockpiles) and occasionally intervene, but only ever so fleetingly there's never permanent, measurable effect?
• Visit Earth just to stuff probes up fat Americans' butts* for whatever 'scientific' purpose that might serve?

* Sorry for generalising, but statistics bears out that:

a) most people who claim to have been abducted and butt-probed by aliens are Americans; and

b) most Americans are fat.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

9 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Well, according to Einstein and Rosen wormholes are theoretically possible, look up their 1935 paper where they talk about the subject, today it is known as an Einstein-Rosen Bridge!

I just read the other day, they have actually *made* a worm hole in a lab not long ago.