Why "osiris" Didn't Exist Before The 5th Dynasty.

[Hanslune]

10 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Egyptians didn't have numerology and they didn't have latitudes or longitudes.  Nor did they have many (if any) expeditions to Greece.  There wasn't that much there to interest them.

Yeah Naucratis was the Greek colony in the Delta, archaeological evidence suggests that the history of a permanent Greek presence in Egypt dates back at least to Mycenaean times (1600–1100 BC), as Aegean Islanders portrayed in the Tomb of Rekhmire shows.

Thought: A thread on the Greek/Crete and Cyprus relationship with Egypt. When I was in Cyprus we were finding trade goods (beads and pottery) from 2,600-2,000 BCE,

[+joc]

This entire thread reminds me of a book I once read; Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.   The book is about a professor who tried to define the word, Quality.  He became obsessed with defining what Quality actually meant.  It consumed him...he literally became insane because of his Obsession with finding that actual definition of the word and what Quality actually meant.  I do find some similar parallels in this thread.

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Does Spiros strike you as someone who actually cares about such things....? 

And if they did that would mean therefore things like this were actually possible:

ΑΦΡΟΔΙΤΗ = 1+500+100+70+4+10+300+8 = 993

(Gaza city latitude) x (Gaza city latitude) = 31.516667° x  31.516667° = 993.3

...? Maybe its just that isopsephy (and all the rest of Sprios's crazy) is complete garbage.  

What a strange thing to say. Well, turns out there is silver. Or how about the Cycladic Civilization, they seem kind of interesting. For example:

Giant marble pyramid-shaped island complex rising from sea uncovered, revealing secrets of ancient Greece’s origins

Keros

Keros: Unexpected archaeological finds in the heart of the Aegean

Researchers Uncover Ancient Greek Island’s Complex Plumbing System     

Then there is Crete. And the mainland.  And even if the Agean was too "uninteresting" for the DE I am sure Egypt would have been quite interesting to the Aegean's, no? 

This is not to say there was direct contact, though there may have been expeditions to Greece or vice versa for all we know, but there is little reason to doubt they would or could have known of each other by way of Levantine trading posts like Byblos or Syria. Which has nothing to do with the validity of Sprios's nonsense. 

Yes, there's evidence of trade but not evidence of an interest in Greece.  Too far away, too "foreign", etc.  The pharaohs weren't even interested in conquering the place, and there wasn't anything particularly strategic about the area. 

Given the Egyptians' attitudes towards foreigners at that time, I think it would have been difficult to persuade an Egyptian army that they really needed to march and drive chariots and wagons (or ships) all the way to the Greek mainland.  They *might* have done it if Egyptian territory was maintained at the boundaries set by Thutmose III, but when they get a weak or indifferent king (or a battle for succession) these territories tended to rebel and break away.

There's probably some good fictional scenarios where you can imagine this happening, but back in the real world I think that's an overextension of their reach and one they couldn't maintain.   Alexander the Great's successors couldn't hold onto his territory and Rome only managed because of their infrastructure.

 

[cladking]

1 hour ago, joc said:

This entire thread reminds me of a book I once read; Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.   The book is about a professor who tried to define the word, Quality.  He became obsessed with defining what Quality actually meant.  It consumed him...he literally became insane because of his Obsession with finding that actual definition of the word and what Quality actually meant.  I do find some similar parallels in this thread.

Wow!  This doesn't sound like the same book I read.  Few books have much influence on me but this one had a profound influence.  I thought he did a good job of defining quality and lived happily ever after but it's been years since I read it.

Coincidentally enough after I read the book I went back and read the introduction etc as I always do if I like the book.  In it he tells the story of having a seizure on the streets of Chicago in ~1967 and nobody stopped to help him.  I was a young man at the time and came upon someone who was having convulsions on the sidewalk.  I actually saw him go down but by the time I got there several people had already walked on by.  I've always felt guilty about not calling for help.  Of course now days I have an appreciation for motorcycle maintenance and would never walk by even if thousands already had.  

People are like cows and love the safety of the herd.  If everyone stampedes to starboard then the ship goes down and only the heretics that went to port survive.  When everybody buys they have lots of company when they sell at a low.  Ancient people weren't like this.  They each thought for themselves and it didn't require funerals for human knowledge to advance as science does today. 

 

It's a strange strange world where nothing is as it appears and we each see not what's there but what we believe.  It's far easier to believe ancient people were bumpkins with magical powers than it is to believe they used knowledge and genius to build the pyramids but we confuse this with "osiris" which was the representation of the cessation of the motive force the gods utilized to build them.  

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by cladking

[+joc]

2 minutes ago, cladking said:

Wow!  This doesn't sound like the same book I read.  Few book have much influence on me but this one had a profound influence.  I thought he did a good job of defining quality and lived happily ever after but it's been years since I read it.

Coincidentally enough after I read the book I went back and read the introduction etc as I always do if I like the book.  In it he tells the story of having a seizure on the streets of Chicago in ~1967 and nobody stopped to help him.  I was a young man at the time and came upon someone who was having convulsions on the sidewalk.  I actually saw him go by but by the time I got there several people had already walked on by.  I've always felt guilty about not calling for help.  Of course now days I have an appreciation for motorcycle maintenance and would never walk by even if thousands already had.  

People are like cows and love the safety of the herd.  If everyone stampedes to starboard then the ship goes down and only the heretics that went to port survive.  When everybody buys they have lots of company when they sell at a low.  Ancient people weren't like this.  They each thought for themselves and it didn't require funerals for human knowledge to advance as science does today. 

 

It's a strange strange world where nothing is as it appears and we each see not what's there but what we believe.  It's far easier to believe ancient people were bumpkins with magical powers than it is to believe they used knowledge and gebnius to build the pyramids but we confuse this with "osiris" which was the representation of the cessation of the motive force the gods utilized to build them.  

He attempted to define the word Quality...it became an obsession.  He had a mental breakdown because of it.  After the breakdown he took some motorcycle trips with friends.  It was during these journeys that he discovered his own definition.  He watched his friends park their bikes and go about partying or whatever...while never doing any maintenance, while he would always be tightening bolts and such.  The title of the book refers to his conscious awakening to the Art of Quality rather than the definition.

To me it meant, no matter how much you meditate and practice Zen or whatever...if you don't take care of the small things of your life, you are going to end up on the side of the road.

The parallel to the book IMO is your seeming compulsive drive to prove something that, on it's own is as innocuous as the meaning of the word Quality, but when obsessed upon (which all obsessions have in common) can lead to a breakdown of normal thought process.

[Hanslune]

10 minutes ago, cladking said:

Ancient people weren't like this.  They each thought for themselves and it didn't require funerals for human knowledge to advance as science does today. 

 

That is your un-evidenced biased opinion based on your beliefs and after 17 years of you refusing to support it with evidence - we just dismiss it.

[Hanslune]

Just now, joc said:

The parallel to the book IMO is your seeming compulsive drive to prove something that, on it's own is as innocuous as the meaning of the word Quality, but when obsessed upon (which all obsessions have in common) can lead to a breakdown of normal thought process.

Yes, he insists he is right over and over again but cannot explain or support that he is.

[Antigonos]

20 minutes ago, cladking said:

Wow!  This doesn't sound like the same book I read.  

That’s because there was no Dick and Jane.

[cladking]

4 minutes ago, joc said:

To me it meant, no matter how much you meditate and practice Zen or whatever...if you don't take care of the small things of your life, you are going to end up on the side of the road.

Yes!!!!  You have to take heed of even the tiniest things such as why would the authors of the Pyramid Texts keep saying over and over that osiris inherited atum.  What does it even mean that one imaginary consciousness inherits another.  

I believe everybody always makes sense in terms of his premises.  When I parse someone's words I know to seek THEIR premises.  This is what people are failing to do.  Instead of trying to parse my words or ancient words in terms of premises they are parsing them in terms of someone else's premises or their own.  It's hardly a wonder that we know the pyramids are tombs because there are no bodies in them and no gold and that they were built with ramps because there are no ramps.  

Meanwhile the FACT is that the builders of the pyramids stated many many times that the pyramids were not tombs and the gods built the pyramids.  Of course Egyptology parses "osiris" just like the authors of the "book of the dead" from many centuries later did.  All the builders did was give us nonsensical clues like gods making the earth high by means of their arms and the pyramids actually being a person rather than a tomb.  

The devil is always in the details.  This is how Egyptology was able to be wrong about every single thing and dismiss the literal meaning of every word in the Pyramid Texts.  

[+joc]

27 minutes ago, cladking said:

Yes!!!!  You have to take heed of even the tiniest things such as why would the authors of the Pyramid Texts keep saying over and over that osiris inherited atum.  What does it even mean that one imaginary consciousness inherits another.  

I believe everybody always makes sense in terms of his premises.  When I parse someone's words I know to seek THEIR premises.  This is what people are failing to do.  Instead of trying to parse my words or ancient words in terms of premises they are parsing them in terms of someone else's premises or their own.  It's hardly a wonder that we know the pyramids are tombs because there are no bodies in them and no gold and that they were built with ramps because there are no ramps.  

Meanwhile the FACT is that the builders of the pyramids stated many many times that the pyramids were not tombs and the gods built the pyramids.  Of course Egyptology parses "osiris" just like the authors of the "book of the dead" from many centuries later did.  All the builders did was give us nonsensical clues like gods making the earth high by means of their arms and the pyramids actually being a person rather than a tomb.  

The devil is always in the details.  This is how Egyptology was able to be wrong about every single thing and dismiss the literal meaning of every word in the Pyramid Texts.  

There are things we know and things we don't know.  The things we don't know but have sufficient evidence to conclude truth we call Theorems.  (a general proposition not self-evident but proved by a chain of reasoning; a truth established by means of accepted truths.)  The things we don't know but choose  to believe the truth thereof with no evidence of any kind, we call Belief.  

No one really knows how the Pyramids were built.  Not you, not me, not anyone.  There are people who have studied the pyramids...you, and others for example.  I haven't studied them at all. But the one thing we all have in common is that we don't know how they were built...there are Theories...but not Theorems.  And Theories are just another kind of belief.

So, all I'm saying is, I don't know if you are right or not...and honestly, I don't really care.  But it seems to me you put a little bit too much mental effort into trying to prove something that cannot be proven.  And, it cannot be proven because there isn't enough evidence to support proof.   My point is just remember that in the end, nothing will change.  Don't put all your eggs in to a basket that isn't going to ever make it home.  

[cladking]

1 hour ago, joc said:

No one really knows how the Pyramids were built.  Not you, not me, not anyone.  There are people who have studied the pyramids...you, and others for example.  I haven't studied them at all. But the one thing we all have in common is that we don't know how they were built...there are Theories...but not Theorems.  And Theories are just another kind of belief.

This is all quite true but Egyptologists ALWAYS and INVARIABLY follow this with "they mustta used ramps".  Meanwhile it is a simple FACT that the builders said that the gods built the pyramids and towed the earth by means of balance.  I BELIEVE that this is probably exactly how they did it.  "Osiris, in his name of seker tows the earth by means of balance".  I believe it's just this simple and we misinterpret EVERYTHING they actually said.  

1 hour ago, joc said:

But it seems to me you put a little bit too much mental effort into trying to prove something that cannot be proven.  And, it cannot be proven because there isn't enough evidence to support proof.   My point is just remember that in the end, nothing will change.  Don't put all your eggs in to a basket that isn't going to ever make it home.

I disagree on all counts.  The ONLY reason it hasn't already been proven is Egyptology refuses to systematically apply modern science and technology and refuses to let real scientists come in and do it.  Eventually they'll be removed from their role as guardians of the status quo and we'll have actual answers.  

[+joc]

21 minutes ago, cladking said:

This is all quite true but Egyptologists ALWAYS and INVARIABLY follow this with "they mustta used ramps".  Meanwhile it is a simple FACT that the builders said that the gods built the pyramids and towed the earth by means of balance.  I BELIEVE that this is probably exactly how they did it.  "Osiris, in his name of seker tows the earth by means of balance".  I believe it's just this simple and we misinterpret EVERYTHING they actually said.  

I disagree on all counts.  The ONLY reason it hasn't already been proven is Egyptology refuses to systematically apply modern science and technology and refuses to let real scientists come in and do it.  Eventually they'll be removed from their role as guardians of the status quo and we'll have actual answers.  

So, the evil Egyptologists won't let scientists examine public data? How mean of them not to share.🙄

Or...is it that 'scientists' aren't really able to prove anything either? I mean, it's not like we just stumbled upon the pyramids two weeks ago.  Ample time...nothing.  Nothing but people steeped in their own belief who want to evangelize their "truth' to the rest of us.

[Antigonos]

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

 Alexander the Great's successors couldn't hold onto his territory 

 

It wasn’t a question of being overextended in terms of territory. They lost Alexander’s gains because the Successors and their descendants weakened themselves outwardly by constantly warring with each other’s kingdoms,  and inwardly by succession squabbles that bled the dynasties dry. 
 

If the Antigonids, Attalids, Ptolemies, Seleucids and Antiprids had all continued to treat Alexander’s empire as a single entity and spent those three centuries as firm allies united with common goals, strengthening themselves and each other’s kingdoms, they and the Hellenistic age itself would have lasted much longer. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Antigonos

[Antigonos]

15 minutes ago, joc said:

So, the evil Egyptologists won't let scientists examine public data? How mean of them not to share.🙄

Or...is it that 'scientists' aren't really able to prove anything either? I mean, it's not like we just stumbled upon the pyramids two weeks ago.  Ample time...nothing.  Nothing but people steeped in their own belief who want to evangelize their "truth' to the rest of us.

Feeding him only makes him stronger.

[cladking]

1 hour ago, joc said:

So, the evil Egyptologists won't let scientists examine public data?

NO!   They don't allow real scientists to gather data or experiment.  They don't allow the systematic application of modern knowledge and instrumentation for studying the pyramids.  For instance infrared technology has been available for more than a century now and there are still no published results of a systematic application of this technology!!!   It's old enough that Petrie could have used it but neglected to try. 

Nobody can examine data while Egyptologists won't seek it.  

1 hour ago, joc said:

Or...is it that 'scientists' aren't really able to prove anything either? I mean, it's not like we just stumbled upon the pyramids two weeks ago

You never know what you'll find if you just look.  Egyptologists say they study the pyramids with their backs turned to them.   Egyptologists are more interested in parsing the meaning of "osiris" in terms of the "book of the dead" than they are in looking at the pyramids  OR trying to determine how osiris inherited atum.  

1988b. Thou art come, N., clothed; thou comest vested.

1989a. N. has inherited him who is not mourned any more, him who comes into being smiling.

This is just the way it is.  Egyptologists don't care what exact configuration of ramps were used so they won't use science to find out.  They don't care what the pyramid builders said and only care what it meant to later Egyptians.  

Did I mention it's a strange world where only the status quo holds sway and science changes one funeral at a time?   

[cladking]

1 hour ago, Antigonos said:

Feeding him only makes him stronger.

Thank you for noticing.

It's hard to argue against anything if you don't know what it is.   It's also hard to argue against "they could only have used ramps" or ancient people were made strong through ignorance and superstition.  Such ideas are embedded in the population by Egyptologists who aren't even studying the pyramids and other artefacts like the PT chiseled into stone. Instead they copy the words and parse then in terms of later writing and their many erroneous assumptions.  

I just get stronger because all the evidence agrees with me.  It agrees with me BECAUSE I created my beliefs out of the actual evidence instead of the "book of the dead" and the abiding belief in superstition and magic. 

I don't understand how the ability to make predictions is just shrugged off.  

[Antigonos]

22 minutes ago, cladking said:

 

I just get stronger because all the evidence agrees with me.  It agrees with me BECAUSE I created my beliefs out of the actual evidence instead of the "book of the dead" and the abiding belief in superstition and magic. 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Antigonos

[Hanslune]

41 minutes ago, cladking said:

I just get stronger because all the evidence agrees with me.

No, all you do is state that. We are still, after seventeen years, still waiting for your extensive publication wherein you'll outline all this stunning 'evidence' (not opinion or belief) that you've been hiding....we both know you'll never going to produce as you, while an eccentric, realize you don't have this but you love to troll about saying you do. It gets very boring.Below is the full contents of your present 'evidence'.

[cladking]

51 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Across the board the evidence exists.  It is all things you can see with your own eyes.  

I have thousands upon thousands of pieces of evidence and they are each dismissed.  

 

 

 

Here you can plainly see stones were brought up on the south side of the pyramid exactly as my theory says.  They were then distributed right to left starting on the opposite side.  

All the evidence exists and soon enough it will be believed that this was established  back around around 2008 after I discovered it in 2006.  Everywhere you look you can see how it was built and then you can hear the builders rituals that all confirm it.  You simply can't see evidenc4e through your beliefs.  This is the way the human mind works.  If you believe people used to be superstitious and we're all better now you'll see ramps and ignorance everywhere you look.  

[+joc]

1 hour ago, cladking said:

I created my beliefs out of the actual evidence  

Yes, you created your own beliefs.  Unfortunately, what you cannot create are facts.  Proof.  But you will go nuts trying!

[cladking]

2 minutes ago, joc said:

Unfortunately, what you cannot create are facts. 

Facts are things like the builders said that osiris inherited atum and that he towed the earth by means of balance.  These are facts.  You and Egyptologists simply choose to dismiss the facts.  You dismiss facts like that the builders said hundreds of times that the great pyramids were not tombs and they never once said otherwise.  These are facts.  It is a fact that the w3s-sceptres looks like the striped sided jackal and is described in terms consistent with such a jackal.  It is a fact that there are no abstractions in the Pyramid Texts and it breaks Zipf's Law just as it is a fact that Egyptologists overlooked all of these things.  

Reality is discovered by the evidence it presents and leaves.  There is no evidence that great pyramids were tombs dragged up ramps by changeless and superstitious bumpkins.  The evidence shows linear funiculars could have been used exactly like the authors of the PT said.  

[+joc]

10 minutes ago, cladking said:

Facts are things like the builders said that osiris inherited atum and that he towed the earth by means of balance.  These are facts.  You and Egyptologists simply choose to dismiss the facts.  You dismiss facts like that the builders said hundreds of times that the great pyramids were not tombs and they never once said otherwise.  These are facts.  It is a fact that the w3s-sceptres looks like the striped sided jackal and is described in terms consistent with such a jackal.  It is a fact that there are no abstractions in the Pyramid Texts and it breaks Zipf's Law just as it is a fact that Egyptologists overlooked all of these things.  

Reality is discovered by the evidence it presents and leaves.  There is no evidence that great pyramids were tombs dragged up ramps by changeless and superstitious bumpkins.  The evidence shows linear funiculars could have been used exactly like the authors of the PT said.  

Dude!  I'm not saying that what you are saying is untrue, or that what others are saying is true.  I just think you are a bit too OCD with all of it.  

So what is your end game.  Do  you think the Annunaki built the pyramids?  

[cladking]

54 minutes ago, joc said:

So what is your end game.  Do  you think the Annunaki built the pyramids?  

There isn't really an endgame per se.

Rather there was a speciation event we know only as the "tower of babel".   Homo sapiens were eradicated when Ancient Language failed because it was the operating system of the homo sapien brain.  It was replaced by a new operating system (modern language) which is analog, abstract, and symbolic.  We can not see the nature of consciousness from this new perspective.   It causes us to reason in circles and to misinterpret much of reality.  I doubt we'll get past the Unified Field Theorem (or the double slit experiment) until we understand the nature of the observer.  We might even bog down in science altogether without coming to understand our own nature.   Homo sapiens were replaced by our species; homo omnisciencis but the chief difference is that we just process data differently.

^The "end game" is proof that Egyptologists are wrong about everything and the great pyramids were built with linear funiculars and the people (homo sapiens) who were there said exactly this.  The pyramids were mnemonics to remember individuals by day and each individual had a star that served this purpose at night.  There was no religion, no magic, and no superstition because superstition kills rather than creates.  Ancient people had no beliefs, no abstractions, and didn't experience "thought".  They were nothing at all like Egyptologists who see themselves while parsing ancient words.  This is the human condition ever since the "tower of babel".  Nothing is as it seems.   

[Antigonos]

1 hour ago, joc said:

Yes, you created your own beliefs.  Unfortunately, what you cannot create are facts.  Proof.  But you will go nuts trying!

He already has. 17 years of the same thing.

[+joc]

1 hour ago, cladking said:

the great pyramids were built with linear funiculars and the people (homo sapiens) who were there said exactly this. 

Where is the proof that these linear funiculars existed?  Where is the proof that the people who were there said as much?