Why so specific? Rome founded on 21st April 753BC?

[Piney]

7 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

I can name many names and places that make sense in both languages…that have no equal in IE…especially the Trojan War..Achilles…death of the ram…in Basque,…what is Achilles in IE?

Ili itself means city in Basque, like was Illium ever anything but a city…I don’t hear it being called the town of Troy, but by all means give me your IE definition of Ilium…

Illium means "flank of fish"  or "pelvis" in Latin.

[The Puzzler]

Among the given references, other artcles are concerning the sun and the light entering the temple. In partcular, in [4] we fnd mentoned the role on the sun on April 21, the Birthday of Rome. In [4], we can read that “Un ulteriore riferimento va fato alle condizioni che si verifcano nel Pantheon il giorno 21 aprile, Natale di Roma. Infat alle 12.00 (ora solare) all'interno del monumento, la penetrazione del sole crea una sensazione eccezionale. I raggi del sole abbagliano il visitatore all'ingresso, il quale perde la percezione materica sovrastante e riceve una immagine davvero suggestva”. That is, we have to consider the conditons that occur
             
in the Pantheon on 21 April, Birthday of Rome. In fact, at noon, inside the monument, the rays of the sun create an exceptonal sensaton. The rays dazzle the visitor at the entrance, who loses the percepton of the overlying structure of the building.

https://hal.science/hal-01800694/file/Pantheon-in-Rome-HAL.pdf

[Antigonos]

7 minutes ago, Piney said:

Illium means "flank of fish"  or "pelvis" in Latin.

That would make for an interesting misunderstanding.

[The Puzzler]

“Let us note that the ancient Romans were sure that April 21, the day of the festval sacred to Pales, goddess of shepherds, was also the day of the foundaton of Rome. Therefore, any link of this day to architectures comes as no surprise. The role of the sun in the Pantheon on April 21 is also mentoned in [20]. The authors are proposing that the symbolic acton of the sun on that day was that of putng “Rome among the Gods”. “If we suppose, as seems likely, that the emperor was celebratng this precise day there, then his entrance “together with the sun” would have been a symbolic link between the people and the Gods” [20].
The Pantheon that we see today was built at the tme of Hadrian, but it seems reasonable to imagine that some rituals existed - and related hierophanies linking the Pantheon to the sun - even at the tme of Augustus. As told in [21], some recent discoveries tell that, in the area in front of the Pantheon, there are the original stairs of the previous Augustan temple. According to Eugenio La Rocca, Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, these fndings testfy that the Pantheon rebuilt by Hadrian, that is the temple that we see today, has preserved the original North orientaton of the temple of Augustus. Also the monumental bronze door is that of the Augustan building. La Rocca contnues explaining that there are all the reasons to suppose that any phenomenon concerning the rays of the sun existed also in the Pantheon of Augustus, a temple that had a similar conformaton, not so complex but with a similar façade. “Why this mise-en-scène?” - Reference 21 is asking. "It is the politcal program of Augustus - highlights La Rocca - to restore his appearance as the new founder of the city, in the sign of peace", in an authentc “solar theater” 

 

 

[The Puzzler]

Don’t even get me started on Finnish hel, Helle and Helios, an obvious Finno-Ugric name and phenomenon of ancient  Northern Europe mythology.

Lets stick with Sol…sounds a bit like hel….forget that. OK, so Sol was pretty important to the Romans. We should note here that Sol went out of fashion at one point….possibly leading to a forgetfulness of what he even meant to the pioneering Romans….

Sol is the personification of the Sun and a god in ancient Roman religion. It was long thought that Rome actually had two different, consecutive sun gods: The first, Sol Indiges (Latin: the deified sun), was thought to have been unimportant, disappearing altogether at an early period. Only in the late Roman Empire, scholars argued, did the solar cult re-appear with the arrival in Rome of the Syrian Sol Invictus (Latin: the unconquered sun), perhaps under the influence of the Mithraic mysteries.^[1] Publications from the mid 1990s have challenged the notion of two different sun gods in Rome, pointing to the abundant evidence for the continuity of the cult of Sol, and the lack of any clear differentiation – either in name or depiction – between the "early" and "late" Roman sun god.^[2][3][4][5]

Edited November 5, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Windowpane]

19 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

...

Ili itself means city in Basque, like was Illium ever anything but a city…I don’t hear it being called the town of Troy, but by all means give me your IE definition of Ilium…

...

There is a good probability that the name "Ilios" or "Ilion" (in Latin, "Ilium") originated in the Hittite name Wilusa or Wilusiya (first evidence in the historical record, 1400 BC).

Later on, Greek mythographers came up with the story that the city was named after Ilus, the son of Tros.  We now know it as Troy (perhaps 4,000 years old).

 

[The Puzzler]

1 minute ago, Windowpane said:

There is a good probability that the name "Ilios" or "Ilion" (in Latin, "Ilium") originated in the Hittite name Wilusa or Wilusiya (first evidence in the historical record, 1400 BC).

Later on, Greek mythographers came up with the story that the city was named after Ilus, the son of Tros.  We now know it as Troy (perhaps 4,000 years old).

 

Well, thanks for that info.

[SHaYap]

@The Puzzler

If you decided to spend so much time and effort on this tale chasing whatchamacallit...you'd be better off to just sit back and dive deep into a Professor Mary Beard all things Rome binge... 

Mary Beard documentaries

~

 

[Windowpane]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

Hmmm…

Proto-Indo-European	*Manu ('Man')	*Yemo('Twin')	Primordial Cow	Sky-Father, Storm-God, Divine Twins
Indian	Mánu, Puruṣa	Yama, (Manāvī)	Manu's bull	The Vedic gods
Iranian	Ahriman, Spityura, Manūščihr	Yima, Gayōmart	Primordial Ox (Gōšūrvan)	–
Germanic	Mannus	Ymir, Tuisto	Primordial Cow (Auðhumla)	Óðinn and his brothers
Roman	Rōmulus	*Yemos (Remus)	She-wolf	The senators

Clicking the (Remus) link in that table takes you here, where there's a mention of: "Manu and Yemo, a Proto-Indo-European story believed to be the origin of this myth".

[The Puzzler]

9 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Well, thanks for that info.

If we split hairs on it and take the H away from Hatti…the land of…we could get ati….the land of ati….the motherland in Etruscan, I can go this all day but I’m trying to stay on topic.

Edited November 5, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

3 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

@The Puzzler

If you decided to spend so much time and effort on this tale chasing whatchamacallit...you'd be better off to just sit back and dive deep into a Professor Mary Beard all things Rome binge... 

Mary Beard documentaries

~

 

Maybe I will, that a good name. Mary Beard.

[The Puzzler]

3 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

Clicking the (Remus) link in that table takes you here, where there's a mention of: "Manu and Yemo, a Proto-Indo-European story believed to be the origin of this myth".

Thanks for that, I have taken it on board, thinking about it tonight. I’m not sure of a language that substitutes R for Y though, IE does have paradigms, however since we use a PIE…proto language to summarise our own language I guess we can make anything fit….

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, The Puzzler said:

Maybe I will, that a good name. Mary Beard.

That's not just a name, that's "the" name on all things Rome and Classical ...

~

[The Puzzler]

11 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

@The Puzzler

If you decided to spend so much time and effort on this tale chasing whatchamacallit...you'd be better off to just sit back and dive deep into a Professor Mary Beard all things Rome binge... 

Mary Beard documentaries

~

 

Since you have taken the time to espouse Ms Beards knowledge I will certainly follow it up as bedtime reading later tonight.

[The Puzzler]

“Besides the sun and related rituals, let us also consider the Oculus and the night sky. The temple, like a huge human eye, had its pupil which was observing the stars passing at the Zenith of Rome. Let us remember that the sun and the moon, at the lattude of Rome, cannot reach the zenith positon. If we are precisely at the center of the foor of the Pantheon, through the Oculus we can see an angle 10 degrees wide, as given in the Figure 5. Therefore, let us investgate by means of the planetarium sofware Stellarium what were the stars observed by the Roman emperors.”

Indeed, what were these stars observed by the Roman Emperors?

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, The Puzzler said:

Since you have taken the time to espouse Ms Beards knowledge I will certainly follow it up as bedtime reading later tonight.

Professor Mary Beard is by no means an anything easy read ... Her documentary series on Rome on the other hand, is a smashing watch... And worth watching again... 

~

[The Puzzler]

And speaking of the Parilia and shepherds…who saved Paris? He was meant to die. Those darned shepherds, always poking their nose into humanity’s progression.

Edited November 5, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

What were these shepherds looking at?

A wonderful poem by Wordsworth begins…

”Chaldean Shepherds, ranging trackless fields,
Beneath the concave of unclouded skies
Spread like a sea, in boundless solitude,
Looked on the Polar Star, as on a Guide
And Guardian of their course, that never closed
His steadfast eye.”

Could our mysterious date have a Polar Star connection…? There were twin polar stars in our distant past.

Edited November 5, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This just gets better…twin pole stars came to mind immediately. Dogs tail…twins in a dogs tail…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_star

”Alpha and Beta Ursae Minoris was reasonably close to the pole, and it appears that the entire constellation of Ursa Minor, in antiquity known as Cynosura (Greek Κυνόσουρα "dog's tail")^[1] was used as indicating the northern direction for the purposes of navigation by the Phoenicians.^[2] The ancient name of Ursa Minor, anglicized as cynosure, has since itself become a term for "guiding principle" after the constellation's use in navigation.”…

”From around 1700 BC until just after 300 AD, Kochab (Beta Ursae Minoris) and Pherkad (Gamma Ursae Minoris) were twin northern pole stars, though neither was as close to the pole as Polaris is now.”

Edited November 5, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Piney]

59 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Don’t even get me started on Finnish hel, Helle and Helios, an obvious Finno-Ugric name and phenomenon of ancient  Northern Europe mythology.

Lets stick with Sol…sounds a bit like hel….forget that. OK, so Sol was pretty important to the Romans. We should note here that Sol went out of fashion at one point….possibly leading to a forgetfulness of what he even meant to the pioneering Romans….

Sol is the personification of the Sun and a god in ancient Roman religion. It was long thought that Rome actually had two different, consecutive sun gods: The first, Sol Indiges (Latin: the deified sun), was thought to have been unimportant, disappearing altogether at an early period. Only in the late Roman Empire, scholars argued, did the solar cult re-appear with the arrival in Rome of the Syrian Sol Invictus (Latin: the unconquered sun), perhaps under the influence of the Mithraic mysteries.^[1] Publications from the mid 1990s have challenged the notion of two different sun gods in Rome, pointing to the abundant evidence for the continuity of the cult of Sol, and the lack of any clear differentiation – either in name or depiction – between the "early" and "late" Roman sun god.^[2][3][4][5]

Hel and Helios aren't related. Your using mass comparison, i.e. LEGO linguistics again. 

A sun god and sun cart can be deduced in the PIE belief. 

Sol Invictus was just the Latin name for El Agabal, a Arab sun god. 

[The Puzzler]

28 minutes ago, Piney said:

Hel and Helios aren't related. Your using mass comparison, i.e. LEGO linguistics again. 

A sun god and sun cart can be deduced in the PIE belief. 

Sol Invictus was just the Latin name for El Agabal, a Arab sun god. 

Am I? Finnish hel, not a God, a word concept comes from a hot cooking stone, that’s a very old concept, a round glowing, hot thing that raises…..up, like a thermometer…or cooking bread even, it raises….the Sun rises…the stove gets hotter as the fire rises,our day gets hotter as the Sun rises, in a nutshell hel is heat is the symptom or effect. Hot, round glowing circle/stone is the cause…Words were originally concepts. Finnish is a basic concept of cooking on a stone. Everything else deviates from that. You need to look at the earliest speakers of these concepts…It’s only Lego because it’s not accepted in  PIE . 
Where does Santa live? He lives in Saami lands at the North Pole. Not in Greece or Rome.

Edited November 5, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I believe there is a totally explainable reason for the founding date of Rome…if we can find it.

[The Puzzler]

“Let us note that it was from this place that Romulus ascended to heaven, and that it “could not have been coincidental that this very area was chosen by Agrippa as the site of the Pantheon, which functoned as a dynastc temple honoring the celestal gods and Augustus’ deifed father, Julius Caesar” [23].
Let us conclude our discussion on the Pantheon of Rome with the following suggeston. In our opinion, the possibility exists that the human eye was the model for the architecture of the Pantheon. Actually, examples of parts of the human body used as models for architectures exist [24], and among them we fnd the well-known case of the colonnades designed by Gian Lorenzo Bernini for St Peter’s Square. As told by Bernini himself, the colonnades were designed to surround people as “the maternal arms of Mother Church”, in his Baroque theatricality vision of the architecture [25]. Therefore, also the architect of the ancient Rome that planned the Pantheon could have had the same symbolic vision of architecture. We can imagine that the he planned the building like a human eye, not only inspired by the functon of the light in it, but also by its anatomy. In this manner he created a temple linking Rome to the heavens, in the form of an eye that could observe the motion of the Universe”.

[The Puzzler]

“There is archaeological evidence of human occupation of the Rome area from at least 5,000 years, but the dense layer of much younger debris obscures Palaeolithic and Neolithic sites.^[2] The evidence suggesting the city's ancient foundation is also obscured by the legend of Rome's beginning involving Romulus and Remus.

The traditional date for the founding of Rome is 21 April 753 BC, following Marcus Terentius Varro,^[3] and the city and surrounding region of Latium has continued to be inhabited with little interruption since around that time. Excavations made in 2014 have revealed a wall built long before the city's official founding year. Archaeologists uncovered a stone wall and pieces of pottery dating to the 9th century BC and the beginning of the 8th century BC, and there is evidence of people arriving on the Palatine hill as early as the 10th century BC.”

https://hal.science/hal-01800694/file/Pantheon-in-Rome-HAL.pdf

As much as Faustulus (the shepherd) is to blame for saving the sons of Mars….we see evidence of true pre-Rome from when the Greeks were in a dark age.  We know the Palatine Hill was inhabited from the 10th century. Just who took from who as we have pondered here, is a good question….where did Romans come from, when they settled on a volcanic terrain, the home of Vulcan…in the hills of Alba Longa?

“Vulcan belongs to the most ancient stage of Roman religion: Varro, the ancient Roman scholar and writer, citing the Annales Maximi, records that king Titus Tatius dedicated altars to a series of deities including Vulcan” Wiki Vulcan

“In legend, Romulus and Remus, founders of Rome, had come from the royal dynasty of Alba Longa, which in Virgil's Aeneidhad been the bloodline of Aeneas, a son of Venus.^[3][4][5]

According to Livy, Roman patrician families such as the Julii, Servilii, Quinctii, Geganii, Curiatii and Cloelii originated in Alba Longa.”

Edited November 5, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

If we want to go Greek, we could, Vulcan may come from Crete…I’m certainly not denying that…but if you want to banter whether Hephaestus came from Velchanos first, before Vulcan, I’m up for it.

The Greeks made a mockery of this God of the Minoans, an original vegetation God, like when volcanic soil is fertile, it’s great agricultural land, whereby the Romans again stuck straight and narrow to the original…the Greeks give us some hazed up story of Hephaestus and Athena creating Erichthonius. Take your choice on who to believe.

 The letter V, from Minoan, it stayed in Latin and Etruscan and Finnish….but became Ph in Greek…this tells me the languages I mentioned put them closer to Minoan, than others, just like the God.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by The Puzzler