Noam Chomsky - Why Does the U.S. Support Israel?

[Piney]

3 hours ago, Raptor Witness said:

Since you’re a believer in “projection,” as an explanation for some examples of the supernatural, here’s some new science dealing with that very thing.

If the image on the shroud is in fact, multiple images combined into one, as the evidence now points to, then no known process, man-made or natural can explain it.

Even more amazing is the evidence that the source of the radiation is inside and independent of the body. Parts of the body, such as the hands, appear to have moved, when the image was created, whereas the torso remains fixed.

It’s as if the camera taking the photo, was somehow inside the body. The more we study the basic physics presented in the image or “projection,” it’s easily several orders of magnitude of sophistication, beyond any technology we possess, or have even imagined. 

The Dude moved, inside the shroud, when His image burned or was “projected” onto the linen cloth.

 

 

 

That fraud has been debunked. Many times over.

[Raptor Witness]

6 hours ago, Piney said:

That fraud has been debunked. Many times over.

I thought so, as well, but then the image itself was studied, exclusive of carbon dating, and the results are impressive.

Secular experts knew the image was unique and unusual, because there are no other examples of the curious phenomenon; but why, was never explained in any scientific detail.

Fast forward to modern digital imaging, and suddenly you have high quality copies being passed around, all over the world to vastly more secular, photographic scientists.

This newer work on the “projection “ is raising more eyebrows than ever before, because the science of photography has greatly advanced. The new questions raised are harder to explain, and go well beyond issues of faith.

Dude left unexpected evidence of an process that supports His claim of resurrection. A discarded cacoon, with a radiation burn on the inside.

[Antigonos]

1 hour ago, Raptor Witness said:

I thought so, as well, but then the image itself was studied, exclusive of carbon dating, and the results are impressive.

Secular experts knew the image was unique and unusual, because there are no other examples of the curious phenomenon; but why, was never explained in any scientific detail.

Fast forward to modern digital imaging, and suddenly you have high quality copies being passed around, all over the world to vastly more secular, photographic scientists.

This newer work on the “projection “ is raising more eyebrows than ever before, because the science of photography has greatly advanced. The new questions raised are harder to explain, and go well beyond issues of faith.

Dude left unexpected evidence of an process that supports His claim of resurrection. A discarded cacoon, with a radiation burn on the inside.

Oh it’s a genuine artifact, but the flax the shroud was made from was carbon dated unequivocally to the late 13th/ early 14th century back in the 1990s. Going by the details of the image and the injuries on the corpse it was probably the burial shroud of a crusader.

The last word on the subject. A highly recommended read.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Antigonos

[Piney]

28 minutes ago, Raptor Witness said:

I thought so, as well, but then the image itself was studied, exclusive of carbon dating, and the results are impressive.

Secular experts knew the image was unique and unusual, because there are no other examples of the curious phenomenon; but why, was never explained in any scientific detail.

Fast forward to modern digital imaging, and suddenly you have high quality copies being passed around, all over the world to vastly more secular, photographic scientists.

This newer work on the “projection “ is raising more eyebrows than ever before, because the science of photography has greatly advanced. The new questions raised are harder to explain, and go well beyond issues of faith.

Dude left unexpected evidence of an process that supports His claim of resurrection. A discarded cacoon, with a radiation burn on the inside.

The real carbon dating results point to it being Medieval. The facial structure points to a Northern European. The musculature points to a knight suffering malnutrition.

My theory is it was a captured Frankish knight from the First Crusade. 

[Antigonos]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

The real carbon dating results point to it being Medieval. The facial structure points to a Northern European. The musculature points to a knight suffering malnutrition.

My theory is it was a captured Frankish knight from the First Crusade. 

Templars wore their hair long, I’d be tempted to think he may have been a member of one of the military religious orders.

[Piney]

27 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Templars wore their hair long, I’d be tempted to think he may have been a member of one of the military religious orders.

Jaylemurph and I both figured a Templar. It seemed logical because it was in their hands first.

[Raptor Witness]

The way the the Dude may of figured it, is you weren’t impressed with healing and resurrection, so He’s going to try plagues and death. Only, you won’t be able to actually die from this death. Instead, you’ll keep self resurrecting, until it becomes clearer to your soul that He’s legit.

During the Trial of Man, death is like sleep. Even the grave won’t accept you.

[+OverSword]

It's a shroud thread now? 

[+and-then]

Noam doesn't command the respect from his afficianados that he did for decades.    The US will eventually abandon Israel and it will almost certainly be due to the Democrat party securing control over our central government.  I wonder if/when US Jews will ever change their minds about wanting Israel weakened by imposing the same kind of Left wing fanatics there.  The world is going to get a big surprise someday when they are celebrating the "end" of the Jewish state.  Oh, the world will have won a great victory and Israel will suffer military defeat at some point but the state will only stumble, never fall. 

[Raptor Witness]

3 hours ago, and-then said:

Noam doesn't command the respect from his afficianados that he did for decades.  
 

 

I’m open to anyone who argues for fairness over zealotry.

Israel can’t use their fear of genocide or self defense, as an excuse for using that fear as a genocidal weapon.

If the United States holds Israel accountable for committing genocide, I would hope this would have bipartisan support. If not, then the Party in disagreement is not fit for office.

After what happened in WWII, we owe Israel protection, but not at the expense of foolishly playing into the hands of Hamas’ barbarism.

If we don’t learn from our mistakes, then WWIII is inevitable.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Raptor Witness

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

21 hours ago, Raptor Witness said:

 

I’m open to anyone who argues for fairness over zealotry.

Israel can’t use their fear of genocide or self defense, as an excuse for using that fear as a genocidal weapon.

Agreed. And if Jews want to avoid falling into yet another genocide, I would suggest that they don't steal a country and war against their neighbors. Oops. Too late. 

 

21 hours ago, Raptor Witness said:

If the United States holds Israel accountable for committing genocide, I would hope this would have bipartisan support. If not, then the Party in disagreement is not fit for office.

After what happened in WWII, we owe Israel protection, but not at the expense of foolishly playing into the hands of Hamas’ barbarism.

If we don’t learn from our mistakes, then WWIII is inevitable.

What is this "we" stuff, RW? We (US) do not owe the fledgling Israelis a damn thing. And the nations that "made mistakes" are in Europe, and they should pay to protect Israel
I', still waiting for them to say "thank you" to America, and you know that ain't about to happen.
 

[Raptor Witness]

2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

What is this "we" stuff, RW? We (US) do not owe the fledgling Israelis a damn thing. And the nations that "made mistakes" are in Europe, and they should pay to protect Israel
I', still waiting for them to say "thank you" to America, and you know that ain't about to happen.

That proverbial horse has already left the barn, and it’s naive to ignore the fact that if “we” don’t help protect them, they’ll simply start WWIII by using their nuclear weapons.

We are where we are. It doesn’t mean we can accept the genocide of others, but the stage has already set for a failure of the Balfour Declaration.

I have no illusions about our ability to fix this, on our own. I accept the rationale that we need some sort of intervention, if only because we never should have acquired nuclear weapons in the first place.

It’s over for U.S., also, because we aren’t rational actors, either. Mutually Assured Destruction is a disqualification in my book, as it should be anyone’s. It’s also reasonable to argue that no normal human being can fix this. Enter, first, a proverbial “liar,” who will pretend that he can. Then, the vetted professional, who correctly argues that we’re just chimps waiving our arms at one another. He’s right, and it’s humiliating, but it’s also human, and forgivable with a simple humble acknowledgment.

Chimps with nuclear weapons has got to be the saddest, most insane excuse for a civilization that anyone could ever imagine. None of U.S. deserve saving, except by the grace of a vetted professional healer.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Raptor Witness

[Horta]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:32 AM, OverSword said:

This guy may not be Chomsky's intellectual equal

Yes, in a very similar way that a microbe also "may not be" the physical equal of a blue whale. lol

Quote

The rest of the middle east should be so lucky as to have governments like Israel's.  The world should be so lucky that the rest of the middle east had government like Israel.

An ethno-nationalist apartheid state with a history of occupation, oppression and colonial settler violence that has herded a minority group into a reservation/concentration camp, has them under siege and is now slaughtering them like fish in a barrel might not be the shining example of liberal democracy that you think it is.

Then again we (the "west") have been known to coup democratic govts in the region anyway (Iran) and replace with corrupt dictator should they do something silly, like try to nationalise their oil reserves for the good of their own people.

Anyway, that better do. In some places such opinion quickly results in login details no longer working. Some of that there prized democratic freedom of speech in action lol..

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthrew-irans-democracy-in-four-days

[Horta]

ps. The shroud is irrelevant. The Jesus portrayed in the bible didn't exist as a historical person. 

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Horta said:

Yes, in a very similar way that a microbe also "may not be" the physical equal of a blue whale. lol

Quote

Very poor comparison.  Even someone with mental retardation is a closer match to Chomsky than a microbe is to a blue whale

4 minutes ago, Horta said:

An ethno-nationalist apartheid state with a history of occupation, oppression and colonial settler violence that has herded a minority group into a reservation/concentration camp, has them under siege and is now slaughtering them like fish in a barrel might not be the shining example of liberal democracy that you think it is.

A parliamentary democracy. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

On 11/11/2023 at 10:30 AM, Raptor Witness said:

 

I’m open to anyone who argues for fairness over zealotry.

Israel can’t use their fear of genocide or self defense, as an excuse for using that fear as a genocidal weapon.

If the United States holds Israel accountable for committing genocide, I would hope this would have bipartisan support. If not, then the Party in disagreement is not fit for office.

After what happened in WWII, we owe Israel protection, but not at the expense of foolishly playing into the hands of Hamas’ barbarism.

If we don’t learn from our mistakes, then WWIII is inevitable.

Then you also owe Romani, Catholics and gay people protection … on account of them also being served Final Solutions. 

[Horta]

7 hours ago, OverSword said:

Very poor comparison.  Even someone with mental retardation is a closer match to Chomsky than a microbe is to a blue whale

Chomsky's intellectual output is huge and spans a wide variety of subjects over very many decades. Maher repeats ocasional semi witty (and often facile) lines that are written for him.

If there is a poor comparison, it is because microbes actually exist (unlike Maher's intellectual works).

Quote

A parliamentary democracy. 

Yeah sure. One devoted to Jewish supremacy, where millions of indigenous people are banned from voting or having any representation in their own land. The ones that are allowed to take part politically are seriously hamstrung.

You obviously either didn't read the Amnesty article, or you don't understand what apartheid is. Perhaps you'll look at B'Tselem.

 

Quote

"The 5.5 million Palestinian subjects who live in the Occupied Territories (the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem) are not allowed to vote or run for Knesset – the Israeli parliament – and have no representation in the political institutions that dictate their lives....."

".....B’Tselem is challenging Israel’s basic law on running for parliament, which bars any candidate if their actions or goals explicitly or implicitly include “negation of the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.” The Central Elections Committee – a body comprised of representatives of various political parties – has repeatedly relied on this clause to disqualify Palestinian candidates and lists, arguing that their civil struggle for full equality violates the clause as it denies Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. Therefore, Palestinian citizens who choose to participate in the electoral process have no choice but to enter the political playing field with their hands tied....."

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20221028_not_a_vibrant_democracy_this_is_apartheid

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202210_not_a_vibrant_democracy_this_is_apartheid

Edited December 8, 2023 by Horta

[+OverSword]

10 minutes ago, Horta said:

Chomsky's intellectual output is huge and spans a wide variety of subjects over very many decades.

Which does not make him right or actually knowledgeable about everything he speaks on.  He's no different than Neil DeGrasse Tyson as far as that goes.  He's a linguistics professor not a foreign policy expert (thank goodness)   But feel free to worship him all you want, he says very little about politics that I agree with ever.  Just another leftard

[Raptor Witness]

3 hours ago, OverSword said:

But feel free to worship him all you want, he says very little about politics that I agree with ever.  Just another leftard

I don’t agree with Chomsky about much of anything, either, but what is wrong about this retaliation, is less about left or right, than simply, the lives of so many innocent kids cut short. 

If the IDF continues to damage the good name of their God, there will be a definitive ending to this conflict. Contrary to what some here may understand or believe, there are tripwires in Holy Scripture. As I understand the forecast in their Guide Book, this war is one of those moments.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Raptor Witness

[+OverSword]

12 hours ago, Raptor Witness said:

I don’t agree with Chomsky about much of anything, either, but what is wrong about this retaliation, is less about left or right, than simply, the lives of so many innocent kids cut short. 

If the IDF continues to damage the good name of their God, there will be a definitive ending to this conflict. Contrary to what some here may understand or believe, there are tripwires in Holy Scripture. As I understand the forecast in their Guide Book, this war is one of those moments.

Yeah, I'm saying that Zionism is not the reason the US supports Israel.  It's largely strategic.

[Unusual Tournament]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:18 AM, and-then said:

There was a time when shared values was enough but our neoMarxist revolution that's under way here has put that nearly behind us.  The REAL reason we are - so far - standing beside Israel, is that our military, and possibly a few political leaders, understand just how VERY badly this could spin out of control if Israel were simply cut off from all support and left to deal with their enemies.  I speak not only of Iran's proxy demons in Hamas and Hizballah, but of the global penchant for Jew-hate and a willingness to jump at any chance to weaken or abuse Israel.  

Left alone, Israel is powerful enough to devastate every nation around them with conventional power alone but a sustained effort by their Arab neighbors as well as Iran could leave the nation so damaged that they'd consider going nuclear.  Since that would drag the rest of the planet into jeopardy, standing with them as a munitions supplier and with strategic forces in place should the war get out of hand, is something that is in our national interest.  I'd bet that Blinken has delivered more than one harsh demand from Biden about a ceasefire and he has been rebuffed like a backhand slap.

Yes but it’s the West that made Israel powerful, not the other way around. Israel owns its very existence on first a British mandate, a French nuclear plant and bomb in the 60’s and 70’s and then American political, financial and military support 
 

You mentioned shared values, and I think you might have inadvertently hit the nail on the head. If Zionism is a real project and not some imaginary paranoia, then it stands to reason that Israel is a crack in the masonry of the Middle East. A crack intended to weaken and rebuild the region. You can trace this back to the 11th century crusades or the Skyes-Picot plan or you can modernise it to the Greater Middle East Plan but anyway you look at it Israel is a Western country surrounded by hostile states. It’s in the interests to the West to support and strengthen Israel in order to divide and control the Middle East. 
 

Israel is progressing nicely 
 

 

[Horta]

 

23 hours ago, OverSword said:

Which does not make him right or actually knowledgeable about everything he speaks on.  He's no different than Neil DeGrasse Tyson as far as that goes.  He's a linguistics professor not a foreign policy expert (thank goodness)   But feel free to worship him all you want, he says very little about politics that I agree with ever.  Just another leftard

No one is right all of the time. Some of Chomsky's takes are seriously awry (IMO), one in particular I see as genuinely sociopathic. I also have no doubt that he has been overcome with TDS in recent times. So worship seems an exaggeration and the old adage that "idols have feet of clay" is relevant.

His knowledge of political history and critique of western power structures and Imperialism is spot on though. It's great to have at least one highly respected academic who is prepared to be intellectually honest, an honesty that makes him dissident. It just means that you'll never see him in the captured mainstream media.

Maher and de Grass Tyson are very similar. Both are from the entertainment industry, and neither of them seem to understand the point of science (disappointingly). The only difference would be that one of them is proficient in mathematics.

Chomsky actually explains the institutionalised manipulations used to capture people like Maher (and that are in full swing at the moment, along with dehumanisation).

Academics like Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe are probably more directly knowledgeable regarding the situation in Palestine. Former Zionist, trauma specialist (and holocaust survivor) Gabor Mate has a great humanitarian take on the situation also. If "truth" is the first casualty of conflict, people's humanity is usually the second.

This situation has been a disaster from the outset (from 1948 and before) and it needs resolution. Otherwise the indigenous Palestinians are looking at a similar settler colonial fate as other indigenous populations (most notably of Australia and North America). 

This prolonged slaughter of innocent people is likely to be the downfall of Israel. It's obvious that their bombing campaign of Gaza is a form of collective punishment on a population they see as "human animals" (they've bombed everyone but hamas) that breaks all manner of international and humanitarian laws.  People aren't going to forget.

The US is also complicit by funding and supplying the arms, for running diplomatic cover and supplying military cover in the region while Israel goes about its slaughter. Not only is the entire Islamic world appalled, there is also outrage in the west (including Jewish populations). Israel is likely playing a huge part in its eventual downfall here.

 

 

 

[Horta]

ps. When I say the US is complicit in this slaughter in Gaza, in no way am I talking about the US people in general. I'm talking about the war mongering neo conservative regime that holds power at the moment. The one that with hindsight will probably be remembered as the most incompetent and corrupt administration in US history.

[Unusual Tournament]

18 minutes ago, Horta said:

ps. When I say the US is complicit in this slaughter in Gaza, in no way am I talking about the US people in general. I'm talking about the war mongering neo conservative regime that holds power at the moment. The one that with hindsight will probably be remembered as the most incompetent and corrupt administration in US history.

Yes it is a neo-conservative government. Without which Putin would be in Ukraine, possibly in other ex soviet republics, Turkey at war with Greece. China in Taiwan and confronting the Phillipines and edging towards Australia and Israel at war with most Arab nations and Turkey. Have I left anything out?

[+OverSword]

The (my) problem with videos about the history involved in this conflict is there are a million of them. Half million pro Palestine and half million pro Israel.

 I know what I have seen happen in my own lifetime as far as aggression and retaliation. I know what has been offered in appeasement and what has been refused. Israel is here and is not going away.  I’m not taking the side of either of the religious fanatics which exist on either side but imo if there is to be peace Palestine has to accept and even embrace that Israel exists and are the dominant culture with more strength to back up their position. If there is to be peace Palestine must acknowledge that. They have not. Every death in the current conflict can be laid at the feet of Hamas. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by OverSword