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Mexico worshippers 'witnessed miracle' after Virgin Mary statue 'cries'


pellinore

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6 hours ago, Piney said:

Pious Fraud: A false miracle created by the Catholic Church when they are bleeding members. 

I remember as a kid in a Church Of England church the minister got on a rant about people not putting enough in the plate. He bellowed, If you put one dollar, now put ten. He raised his hands to the Lord (I suppose) and had a massive heart attack😲 It very nearly got me to believe and still today I feel something was divine about it, 🤣. True story 👍.

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Looks like everything is in order here.

 

 

 

________________________________ carry on.

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16 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Actually, the tears were more like chrism oil (olive oil treated with perfume, balsam in this case), something the church has lying around in abundance. Although it hasn't been proven in this particular case, oil mixed with fat could have been applied and made to 'weep' when temperatures went up. But even though an explanation has yet to be determined, it doesn't mean there isn't one. Nor does it mean it's a miracle or a sign from God or Satan (as some believe). I do have to admit however, that I rather like the idea of it being Satan playing tricks on the Catholic Church. It's exactly what I would do if I were him lol.

And then I can present another and another religious miracle and on and on you can go I'm sure.

In the end, it comes down to who feels they are being honest with the body of facts. 

Seems like this one has been studied by some serious and intelligent people, but they are part of the hoax I guess. So even serious investigative study is in the end not going to be accepted. 

Edited by papageorge1
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2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Yes, skeptics will claim every religious miracle can be explained away as trickery or natural phenomena. Believers will call those explanations unsatisfactory.

 

Papa, seriously? I really think you are taking the p--- or I hope you are.

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10 hours ago, Piney said:

Well, you can see her eyes are glass and her face either painted wood or plaster. I chalk it up to condensation and or moisture in the wood or plaster. 

I would like to see if it Our Lady of Guadalupe though. She's a syncretized Corn Mother and not the Virgin Mary. 

Tonontzin.Image result for Tonantzin Aztec Goddess

 

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1 hour ago, openozy said:

Papa, seriously? I really think you are taking the p--- or I hope you are.

Dead serious. I’ve investigated much beyond this little clip

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1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

Dead serious. I’ve investigated much beyond this little clip

You can believe what you want but you need to be skeptical about it always or you'll get way off track and it doesn't help in trying to fathom this already iffy subject.

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15 minutes ago, openozy said:

You can believe what you want but you need to be skeptical about it always or you'll get way off track and it doesn't help in trying to fathom this already iffy subject.

Not sure I understand that sentence but to me it's as simple as no satisfactory normal explanation is out there all things considered.

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22 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Not sure I understand that sentence but to me it's as simple as no satisfactory normal explanation is out there all things considered.

But this stuff could be faked and probably is. I've got to the stage where I'm not saying paranormal unless there is no way of faking it. This pretty well only leaves my own stuff that I'm convinced of. Not saying other people's stuff isn't real though but not the milk thing, lol.

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2 hours ago, openozy said:

But this stuff could be faked and probably is. I've got to the stage where I'm not saying paranormal unless there is no way of faking it. This pretty well only leaves my own stuff that I'm convinced of. Not saying other people's stuff isn't real though but not the milk thing, lol.

Well, I have to suspect I've put more effort than you in learning about this 'milk thing'. The size of this event precludes any lying explanation. 

I, on the other hand, consider the testimony and videos from others. There's no need for you to believe anything you don't experience yourself.

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1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, I have to suspect I've put more effort than you in learning about this 'milk thing'. The size of this event precludes any lying explanation. 

I, on the other hand, consider the testimony and videos from others. There's no need for you to believe anything you don't experience yourself.

Papa did you fail statistics in high school? I won't even bother asking about Fluid Mechanics because clearly you've never reached that level. Please explain how "the size of this event" would make capillary action an inadequate explanation. I would love to send your reply to some graduate researchers I'm mentoring for them to laugh at and pick apart as a case study. 

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9 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

And then I can present another and another religious miracle and on and on you can go I'm sure.

Present a religious miracle with irrefutable evidence backing it up as such and you just might get me to shut up about it.

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, I have to suspect I've put more effort than you in learning about this 'milk thing'. The size of this event precludes any lying explanation. 

And I suspect that the scientists who examined the incidents and conducted tests put in significant more effort in learning about it than you did. No one suggested witnesses were lying, by the way, but scientists did explain what was occurring. It wasn't a miracle, it was physics.

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2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, I have to suspect I've put more effort than you in learning about this 'milk thing'. The size of this event precludes any lying explanation. 

I, on the other hand, consider the testimony and videos from others. There's no need for you to believe anything you don't experience yourself.

It's because I have experienced real paranormal events, after 50 odd years of this you do get a feeling if it's faked or misidentified. the 'milk thing' is so ridiculous it doesn't even rate a mention.

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Anyone who is truly interested in supernatural, paranormal, and psychic phenomenon will ask 'why/how'. They will thus research 'why/how'. Because you need to shift through garbage to find out what really is going on. There are too many fakes and frauds to take this stuff on blind faith.

Edited by XenoFish
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11 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Dead serious. I’ve investigated much beyond this little clip

How far from your sofa did you walk to do this? 

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9 hours ago, csspwns said:

Papa did you fail statistics in high school? I won't even bother asking about Fluid Mechanics because clearly you've never reached that level. Please explain how "the size of this event" would make capillary action an inadequate explanation. I would love to send your reply to some graduate researchers I'm mentoring for them to laugh at and pick apart as a case study. 

Well, I understand the capillary action concept and hold it to be inadequate to explain this Hindu Milk Miracle. Some reasons:

It happened (and only on that day) with objects of all types of material and texture; ceramics, metals, medallions, marble, and what not. Does metal absorb milk through capillary action?

The quantity disappearing is more than can be reasonably accounted for by capillary action.

Devotees failed to get the phenomena to perform after this short miracle time period ended. Capillary action would always act the same. 

The quality, quantity and consistency of even western observants that such behavior was well beyond anything we would consider normal during this time-period.

I would like to have your graduate students address these issues and others I am forgetting to include here before they have their laugh. 

Quite a few spoonful from a marble statue:

I see a little spillage when tipping spoon too far but too little appears lost to explain the event satisfactorily. I would expect a significant flooding.

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9 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Present a religious miracle with irrefutable evidence backing it up as such and you just might get me to shut up about it.

Did you see the weeping statue video I presented above.

9 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

And I suspect that the scientists who examined the incidents and conducted tests put in significant more effort in learning about it than you did. No one suggested witnesses were lying, by the way, but scientists did explain what was occurring. It wasn't a miracle, it was physics.

Many intelligent observers have claimed the capillary action explanation to be inadequate. Some reasons:

It happened (and only on that day) with objects of all types of material and texture; ceramics, metals, medallions, marble, and what not. Does metal absorb milk through capillary action?

The quantity disappearing is more than can be reasonably accounted for by capillary action.

Devotees failed to get the phenomena to perform after this short miracle time period ended. Capillary action would always act the same. 

The quality, quantity and consistency of even western observants that such behavior was well beyond anything we would consider normal during this time-period.

Quite a few Spoonfuls from one small marble statue:
 

I see a little spillage when tipping spoon too far but too little appears lost to explain the event satisfactorily. I would expect a significant flooding.

Edited by papageorge1
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8 hours ago, openozy said:

It's because I have experienced real paranormal events, after 50 odd years of this you do get a feeling if it's faked or misidentified. the 'milk thing' is so ridiculous it doesn't even rate a mention.

I've experienced real paranormal events too. So I respect that others may also.

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25 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Did you see the weeping statue video I presented above.

I did and commented on it. I also presented a possible explanation. That video, by the way, nowhere near meets the standard of irrefutable evidence, and if you're the skeptic you often claim to be, you will know why.

27 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Many intelligent observers have claimed the capillary action explanation to be inadequate.

And who exactly are these so-called intelligent observers? Are they more intelligent than the scientists who got involved in studying the incidents?

27 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

It happened (and only on that day) with objects of all types of material and texture; ceramics, metals, medallions, marble, and what not. Does metal absorb milk through capillary action?

It happened over a period of several days throughout parts of India and elsewhere. No surprise some of the statues stopped working once hordes of crazed worshippers soaked them with milk and other fluids, thus altering the condition of these statues. And if indeed people shoved all kinds of other materials into the statues (I'd like to see your source on that by the way because I have read nothing of the sort) there is no way those materials would  all disappear into any of the statues. Capillary action, by the way, has nothing to do with absorption.

33 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

The quantity disappearing is more than can be reasonably accounted for by capillary action.

You clearly do not understand how capillary action works. The liquids do not disappear. To quote the article cited below (which I suggest you read in full): ".. while one sees the milk slowly disappearing from the spoon, the milk does not vanish into the idol. The milk remains on the surface of the idol or appears at the base of the idol."

https://www.imsc.res.in/~jayaram/Articles/milkb.html

52 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

The quality, quantity and consistency of even western observants that such behavior was well beyond anything we would consider normal during this time-period.

Those Western observers you're referring to must be irrational fanatics, because any rational person would tell you that what happened was nowhere near beyond anything other than normal. Oh and by the way, observing is one thing, scientifically examining and replicating the incident, is another.

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18 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Those Western observers you're referring to must be irrational fanatics, because any rational person would tell you that what happened was nowhere near beyond anything other than normal.

So, you are insisting this all must have a rational scientific explanation or the person believing otherwise is irrational. I presented one marble statue video for which I do not find your explanation satisfactory. And if it was just one person as opposed to thousands, I would suspect a trick. Can marble absorb milk through capillary action? 

Well, you can insist on a natural explanation for all of it and explain away every video and witness statement. And I can call your explanation unsatisfactory for the observations presented, and we can go on forever.

I believe there is nothing irrational in suggesting elements not known to science being involved. Where is that irrational?

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45 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

So, you are insisting this all must have a rational scientific explanation or the person believing otherwise is irrational.

Yes and yes.

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10 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Yes and yes.

 

I think you want to view reality through blinders and have an irrational resistance to claims outside of that.

And I’m more ‘what the bleep do we know’ mentality. So it’s normal for observation to sometimes precede the current scientific understanding.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Did you see the weeping statue video I presented above.

Yes. Apparently they edited out the part where the investigator eliminated the porosity of the statue as a sufficient explanation.

Do you happen to have that piece of video? Thanks in advance.

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4 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I think you want to view reality through blinders and have an irrational resistance to claims outside of that.

You're projecting regarding the blinders. As for having an 'irrational resistance to claims outside of [reality], there is nothing irrational about that. What is  irrational, however, is immediately jumping to supernatural explanations, whilst disregarding other possibilities. Case in point: A scientific explanation has been provided (by scientists no less) and you refuse to accept it. You go on and on ad nauseam about the supposed 'quality, quantity and consistency' of evidence contrary to the scientific findings, but have yet to present anything of it.

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