XenoFish Posted November 18, 2023 #101 Share Posted November 18, 2023 2 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: Just kind of notice how I keep a higher level of arguments than the determined skeptics.... Fixed that for you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted November 18, 2023 #102 Share Posted November 18, 2023 1 hour ago, Jaded1 said: And that, my friends, says it all in a nutshell. You'd believe an evangelical Christian magazine with its own biased agenda, founded by Billy Graham. He was totally legit, wasn't he? More shows how little I respect the determined skeptic analysis that will only allow one conclusion. 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted November 18, 2023 #103 Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, csspwns said: Yep, one quote from a seemingly scientifically educated human being claiming physically impossible events without showing any empirical evidence or analysis to supplement his claim. Assuming the quote is real in the first place, this is totally going to convince the scientific community that capillary action wasn't responsible and something extraordinary happened! Every scientist and engineer in the world, pack your bags and revoke your degrees and licenses. We're going to build buildings, roads, bridges, and dams using spiritual forces now. To the forensic engineers and material scientists, the reason infrastructure and materials fail is due to not accounting for spiritual forces as I'm sure you've all discovered by now in your analyses. To my research students...no need to defend your dissertations and theses, just give me a few half-baked sentences and throw in some engineering terminology and I'll believe all your findings and assumptions are sound. Congrats on obtaining your Master's and PhD with just a few sentences! It seems the view that science explains the normal and should be used in engineering and in general and that the paranormal is very rare but does happen and that both of those things need not be contradictory is not in your capacity to consider. 40 minutes ago, csspwns said: Do you hear how utterly stupid you sound Papa? Do you see how utterly stupid you sound csswpns when claims of a rare paranormal event should cause people to completely lose belief in the efficacy and importance of science? Edited November 18, 2023 by papageorge1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittens Are Jerks Posted November 18, 2023 #104 Share Posted November 18, 2023 12 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: More shows how little I respect the determined skeptic analysis that will only allow one conclusion. 😉 And this from a determined believer who will only allow one conclusion. You're projecting again. 2 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: It seems the view that science explains the normal and should be used in engineering and in general and that the paranormal is very rare but does happen and that both of those things need not be contradictory is not in your capacity to consider. It is very much in his capacity to consider. You seemed to have missed the part where the milk incident did indeed fit within the realm of 'normal'. 5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: Do you see how utterly stupid you sound csswpns when claims of a rare paranormal event should causes people to completely lose belief in the efficacy and importance of science? Um, actually the people who sound utterly stupid are the ones who get so enraptured by what they believe to be a paranormal event, they lose all belief in the efficacy and importance of science (not that they believed in it in the first place, for if they did, they wouldn't behave like rabid animals at the altar of their gods). 1 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiff Posted November 18, 2023 #105 Share Posted November 18, 2023 52 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: More shows how little I respect the determined skeptic analysis that will only allow one conclusion. 😉 That'll be the correct, tested, factual one. Annoying eh? How are you actually able to write this ***** whilst wearing restraints in a rubber room. I'm impressed. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted November 19, 2023 #106 Share Posted November 19, 2023 I tend to give the paranormal a tiny bit of wiggle room. Only because I've had 3 maybe 4 experiences that still baffle me to this day. However stuff like this is hokey. Most paranormal claims have simple explanations. Doesn't matter the quality, quantity, or consistency of stories. The formula is memetic. Leaning on ancient models of reality isn't a valid answer either. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 19, 2023 #107 Share Posted November 19, 2023 21 hours ago, papageorge1 said: It seems the view that science explains the normal and should be used in engineering and in general and that the paranormal is very rare but does happen and that both of those things need not be contradictory is not in your capacity to consider. What you are seeing here is not 'rare' though, given the same conditions capillary action/siphoning will occur every time and I'm sure is a phenomena happening all over the place right now. Scientists can create a statue of Mickey Mouse that will always do this given the same conditions, it involves scientific laws, we should suspect something's amiss if it didn't. 21 hours ago, papageorge1 said: Just kind of notice how I keep a higher level of conversation than the determined skeptics.... Ha, why? You always try to get onto other subjects because you can't really provide much evidence or reasoning for your position that can be discussed here, as usual it's the meanie skeptics who do more actual analysis and provide more content concerning your claims than you provide support. You have countless times referred to your just honest due consideration of claims and calling it how you see it, but it's out of bounds and a 'lower level of conversation' if skeptics honestly call ridiculous claims "ridiculous"? In all the examples we've talked about in the past your responses here are the most revealing of how biased your analysis is and unsupported your 'due consideration' is. This isn't something like most of these topics that is reliant on people's stories or psychology, the semi-reasonable sounding statement you usually have concerning all of your purely anecdote-driven beliefs such as, "I agree that people are not perfect in their perception and memory and that they make mistakes but think the paranormal still occurs in some of these cases' doesn't apply. Capillary action is like gravity, you may as well be saying 'I know most acorns fall to the ground due to gravity but I believe some are actually pushed to the ground due to paranormal forces'. And let's be clear on what your 'study' and 'investigation' involves, which is watching videos and reading unverifiable anecdotes. Real study and debate might involve an argument why the capillary action explanation is insufficient but you revealingly didn't even mention this explanation until it was brought up here, which doesn't support the idea that there's much depth or lack of bias to your 'studying'. But you would have to study a lot more about capillary action and siphoning and science in general to get to the point where you could determine if that is an insufficient explanation for these cases, which isn't as easy as just watching youtube. 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted November 19, 2023 #108 Share Posted November 19, 2023 8 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: What you are seeing here is not 'rare' though, given the same conditions capillary action/siphoning will occur every time and I'm sure is a phenomena happening all over the place right now. Scientists can create a statue of Mickey Mouse that will always do this given the same conditions, it involves scientific laws, we should suspect something's amiss if it didn't. This almost reads like you haven't been following the conversation. Nobody is doubting the physics of capillary action. The issue is that it cannot come close to accounting for the amount of milk that disappeared evidenced by videos and direct observers like: From Col. Bhardwaj (at left, with his wife, Hinduism Today correspondent Prabha) is a retired army officer with a degree in electrical and mechanical engineering as well as postgraduate diplomas in automotive engineering, armament and industrial management. I am an engineer of long standing. The theory that capillary action caused the suction of hundreds of pints of milk by Deities of stone and metal as small as twelve by six inches is not possible. Most of the Deities are carved out of solid stone or cast of metal. Lord Ganesha's trunk takes a bend and makes a twist at the tip. Its tip only has a small hole, the rest is solid mass. This tip is not capable of holding even one spoonful of milk. In some of the murtis, the trunk falls straight and the tip does not have a hole. It sucked hundred of pints of milk in a few hours. No milk was seen flowing out of the body, and no mist was formed around the murtis. What shall we call it, other than Godly miracle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 19, 2023 #109 Share Posted November 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: From Col. Bhardwaj How do you know he's an expert? How do you know that what he said happened, happened? Did you ever respond to the post explaining how much would be required to put 100's of pints through in a couple hours? There is a video of this quantity being sucked? You also have not posted a source link for wherever you pulled this from. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded1 Posted November 19, 2023 #110 Share Posted November 19, 2023 We all know he pulled it from here 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted November 19, 2023 #111 Share Posted November 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said: How do you know he's an expert? How do you know that what he said happened, happened? Did you ever respond to the post explaining how much would be required to put 100's of pints through in a couple hours? There is a video of this quantity being sucked? You also have not posted a source link for wherever you pulled this from. I am sure I can spend the rest of my life trying to document every paranormal event I believe ever happened and I am sure never to a determined skeptic's acceptance. My concern is: All things considered what is most reasonable for me to believe? From my many hours on religious icon miracles I believe something not explainable by current science sometimes occurs beyond reasonable doubt from the accumulated evidence and testimony and investigation. Also, I would not expect a determined skeptic to ever accept such a bizarre claim no matter how many more posts I create linking evidence. And then I'll move on to other things in life. On to more interesting thoughts: 1995 was before the cell phone camera days or there might be so much evidence it couldn't possibly be disputed. One of my theories is that these religious miracles in Catholicism and Hinduism are only meant to encourage the devotees and not compel a sudden forced shift in society's worldview. The general status quo is to go on after these events. Sudden changes that are too great are not allowed. I think it is the same thing with the alien subject. Always just my considered opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 20, 2023 #112 Share Posted November 20, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, papageorge1 said: I am sure I can spend the rest of my life trying to document every paranormal event I believe To what end I wouldn't know, what you believe is irrelevant in this discussion. Your post most obviously doesn't address a single thing that I asked you, I'm not even sure why you'd bother to quote my post in your response; when I accuse you of frequently trying to change the subject as soon as we get to the discussable and relevant part as I just did, providing an evasive post like this is known as 'ducking into the punch". And this is how it is with everything; you claim you are persuaded by the quantity and quality of the stories you read and videos you watch, and as soon as I or anyone tries to examine the quality of any story, you just ignore it and leap over that part to meaningless 'all things considered' like here. A large quantity of crappy stories doesn't result in plausibility, it results in a big pile of crap. Let's take a step back to something you said: 8 hours ago, papageorge1 said: Nobody is doubting the physics of capillary action. We've had several different 'miracle' claims here, there's the crying statue in the OP (complete with an explanation for how it could occur in the link) and your 100 pints 'claim' that you won't even bother to source with a link or respond to basic, fundamental questions on. However let's see if indeed nobody is really doubting capillary action and we can come to a point of agreement for once. In post #15 you posted a short video of milk in a spoon slowly being absorbed, and obviously at a pace that is nowhere near sufficient to support 100s of pints being absorbed in a few hours, this obviously is not an example of that. So, do you admit that this video you posted does not count as evidence at all of anything miraculous? You harp about, invalidly as I note frequently, that so many of these things are beyond scientific understanding and both @csspwns and @Kittens Are Jerks especially here have already provided lots of detail on how science explains this particular video. So you and I agree that this is not evidence at all of anything miraculous right? Things that are consistent with science are by definition not miraculous, and this as an example of a miracle makes no sense within the context of your 'theory of miracles' that the powers-that-be like to provide hints that there's a paranormal side to reality by doing something that science cannot explain? There's obviously no discernable hint in things that already operate according to physical laws, agreed, this is just (understandable) scientific ignorance of capillary action/siphoning by believers? So there's no reason to think anything was miraculous about the video in post #15, do we now have a 'satisfactory explanation' that believers should believe about that specific video now? Edited November 20, 2023 by Liquid Gardens 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csspwns Posted November 20, 2023 #113 Share Posted November 20, 2023 5 hours ago, papageorge1 said: I am sure I can spend the rest of my life trying to document every paranormal event I believe ever happened and I am sure never to a determined skeptic's acceptance. My concern is: All things considered what is most reasonable for me to believe? From my many hours on religious icon miracles I believe something not explainable by current science sometimes occurs beyond reasonable doubt from the accumulated evidence and testimony and investigation. Also, I would not expect a determined skeptic to ever accept such a bizarre claim no matter how many more posts I create linking evidence. And then I'll move on to other things in life. On to more interesting thoughts: 1995 was before the cell phone camera days or there might be so much evidence it couldn't possibly be disputed. One of my theories is that these religious miracles in Catholicism and Hinduism are only meant to encourage the devotees and not compel a sudden forced shift in society's worldview. The general status quo is to go on after these events. Sudden changes that are too great are not allowed. I think it is the same thing with the alien subject. Always just my considered opinions. Confirmation bias and excuses. Occurs beyond reasonable doubt? Then why is it so easy to poke holes in every claim you make? In typical conditions when you drop an object it will ALWAYS fall to the floor. That's what beyond a reasonable doubt means. Do any of your claims have that level of robustness? Definitely not, only according to your standards of what beyond reasonable doubt is. Luckily your low-quality standards aren't valued when it comes to the important things, so please stop misusing that term. It's painful to see as an academic. You just need ONE quality example to change everyone's view, but according to your beliefs that's not going to happen. Sounds like a Catch-22 situation. So much for the quality part in your "quantity, quality, and consistency" spiel. 6 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt84801 Posted November 23, 2023 #114 Share Posted November 23, 2023 Pretty cool phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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