when we become ancient's are time in the universe will be mystical

[Antigonos]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

I went to several of Erhman's and Pagels' lectures in Princeton but my refusal to bend to the politically correct and the calling out of afrocentrism and fake Lenape Indians has me blackballed at Penn, Rutgers and Temple. 

 

 

You got black balled for calling out Afrocentric BS? Damn.

[Piney]

4 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

You got black balled for calling out Afrocentric BS? Damn.

Lee warned me to do it anonymously. Especially with Rowan's Afrocentic Library and David Imhotep. He was spot on......as usual...

 

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

“A description of Jesus, what he did in his life, and what he taught, is recorded in text.”

No it isn’t. An unknown stranger or strangers written accounts of Jesus, what he did and what he taught is recorded in text. That does not and cannot speak to the veracity of those writer’s accounts. Anything beyond what can be inferred by Jesus being a 1st century Jew is essentially creating one’s own Jesus. It has zero to do with the real man or any truth concerning same. 
 

cormac

[+DieChecker]

On 12/1/2023 at 5:49 AM, cormac mac airt said:

None of which helps Will’s position. We know far more about Pontius Pilate than anything meaningful about Yeshua Ben Yosef and they were supposed to have been contemporary and directly involved with each other. Due to the lack of contemporary evidence Jesus comes across as nothing more than one of many hundreds, perhaps thousands, of nondescript wannabe-Messiahs and of no real importance to the Romans or his contemporaries. 
 

cormac

Well, one was a governing officer. And the other was a religious cultists fanatic rabble rouser. Think about the various troublemakers in your home town, and those who lead demonstrations and go scream at council meetings.... Are their names being recorded for posterity? But, is the mayor, or police chief, recorded?

Answer I'd yes. If you want to go look up the mayor of some town in Kansas, you likely can. And the police chief too. But you'd be hard pressed to find the local revolutionary in that same town.

As far as Pilot was concerned, He was just one of those false messiahs. Nothing to write home about. Pilot killed a couple thieves and a religious instigator by crucifixion. Just another Friday... Apparently the instigator died on the cross, and his followers made wild claims he was still alive for months. But even then... Ho Hum... 

I don't find a lack of record to be surprising at all.

Plus, within a couple decades, the whole city (and I'd assume most written records) ( and basically the whole nation) were burned to the ground. Well partly figuratively, since much was stonework. Much of the written materials we do have were carried off into the desert by fanatics. I don't know that that included government documents, or histories, but I'm assuming not, since I've never heard of such.

So local records gone. And mentions of a dead religious cultist not sent to Rome. Not surprising. 

The most well know "Contemporary" historians, Josephus, and Tacitus, were 50 years after, and 75 years after, the time Jesus died. So, then can even those be trusted?

Pliny (the Elder) was a kid when Jesus died. And he didn't write about the East, IIRC, but the North.

I wonder, how many historians were there at any one point. And how many of their books are now missing? 

Edited December 2, 2023 by DieChecker

[cormac mac airt]

2 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Well, one was a governing officer. And the other was a religious cultists fanatic rabble rouser. Think about the various troublemakers in your home town, and those who lead demonstrations and go scream at council meetings.... Are their names being recorded for posterity? But, is the mayor, or police chief, recorded?

Answer I'd yes. If you want to go.look up the mayor of some town in Kansas, you likely can. And the police chief too. But you'd be hard pressed to find the local revolutionary in that same town.

As far as Pilot was concerned, He was just one of those false messiahs. Nothing to write home about. Killed a couple thieves and a religious instigator. Apparently the instigator died on the cross, and his followers made wild claims he was still alive fir months. But even then... Ho Hum... 

I don't find a lack of record to be surprising at all.

Plus, within a couple decades, the whole city (and I'd assume most written records) ( and basically the whole nation) were burned to the ground. Well partly figuratively, since much was stonework. Much of the written materials we do have were carried off into the desert by fanatics. I don't know that that included government documents, or histories, but I'm assuming not, since I've never heard of such.

So local records gone. And mentions of a dead religious cultist not sent to Rome. Not surprising. 

The most well know "Contemporary" historians, Josephus, and Tacitus, were 50 years after, and 75 years after, the time Jesus died. So, then can even those be trusted?

Pliny (the Elder) was a kid when Jesus died. And he didn't write about the East, IIRC, but the North.

I would if Jesus were everything the NT claims he was, after all that’s the basic cornerstone of Christianity. It’s either one way or the other, not both. 
 

cormac

[+DieChecker]

16 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

The idea of Jesus is a lot like an ink blot test. The person's personal idea of what or who he was ends up being what he is because believers rarely take him at face value. Or enact their religious life based on what is supposed to be his words. Instead they transfer attributes and pronouncements they want and Jesus just becomes the unwitting trade marked character spokesman for whatever they're selling. The actual quantified Jesus that is known as much as be can be, bears zero resemblance to the nearly infinite versions created to control, sell and commodify churches, power, popularity, attention, glorification and promotion. Oddly nothing he was known for. 

I think a more common problem is, even if people read the Bible some every day, they don't digest it... process it... They instead go to church on Sunday and soak up what Reverend BillyBob tells them, and THAT is what they act on.

Most people aren't followers of Jesus directly. But are followers of their pastor/priest/minister. Which is where a lot of those followers get into the weeds...

[Will Due]

5 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Most people aren't followers of Jesus directly. 

 

I am.

 

 

[+DieChecker]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

I would if Jesus were everything the NT claims he was, after all that’s the basic cornerstone of Christianity. It’s either one way or the other, not both. 
 

cormac

👍

Very true.

I'll admit to that. If Jesus healed so many people. Did so many miracles. And was so loved, then scorned... You'd think he'd have more noticed.

If he was such a big splash, you'd think that his followers in Acts wouldn't have has such a hard time. Basically everyone acted like these guys were new in town. And I dont know any percentages, but it does seem the cult started by apostles didn't do very well in Jerusalem. It only really took off in the Greek areas, and then really took off only after Constantine. 

[cormac mac airt]

6 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I think a more common problem is, even if people read the Bible some every day, they don't digest it... process it... They instead go to church on Sunday and soak up what Reverend BillyBob tells them, and THAT is what they act on.

Most people aren't followers of Jesus directly. But are followers of their pastor/priest/minister. Which is where a lot of those followers get into the weeds...

An added problem to that is that the Bible isn’t a history book, it’s simply a religious text promoting its particular agenda. 
 

cormac

[+DieChecker]

Just now, cormac mac airt said:

An added problem to that is that the Bible isn’t a history book, it’s simply a religious text promoting its particular agenda. 
 

cormac

Yeah. I never try to actually state the things in the Bible are actual history. They're recorded events bases on the writers knowledge at the time. And thus subject to bias. Plus they're 2000 years old, and thus subject to editing when copied millions of times. 

So, I think much of it (New Testament anyway) is based on factual events, but written with bias.

[openozy]

11 hours ago, TashaMarie said:

So by mapped out, do mean you think our lives are predetermined and beyond our control, or do you think the course of events may be altered?

You can't really alter this because altering it is part of the big picture, it was meant to be altered. I believe you will die on a certain designated date whatever you do. Whether you believe this or not it's a bit hard to be proven wrong.

[Will Due]

8 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

👍

If he was such a big splash, you'd think that his followers in Acts wouldn't have has such a hard time. 

 

Well consider this:

"Christianity is an extemporized religion, and therefore must it operate in low gear. High-gear spiritual performances must await the new revelation and the more general acceptance of the real religion of Jesus. But Christianity is a mighty religion, seeing that the commonplace disciples of a crucified carpenter set in motion those teachings which conquered the Roman world in three hundred years and then went on to triumph over the barbarians who overthrew Rome. This same Christianity conquered—absorbed and exalted—the whole stream of Hebrew theology and Greek philosophy. And then, when this Christian religion became comatose for more than a thousand years as a result of an overdose of mysteries and paganism, it resurrected itself and virtually reconquered the whole Western world. Christianity contains enough of Jesus’ teachings to immortalize it."

 

 

[cormac mac airt]

22 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Well consider this:

"Christianity is an extemporized religion, and therefore must it operate in low gear. High-gear spiritual performances must await the new revelation and the more general acceptance of the real religion of Jesus. But Christianity is a mighty religion, seeing that the commonplace disciples of a crucified carpenter set in motion those teachings which conquered the Roman world in three hundred years and then went on to triumph over the barbarians who overthrew Rome. This same Christianity conquered—absorbed and exalted—the whole stream of Hebrew theology and Greek philosophy. And then, when this Christian religion became comatose for more than a thousand years as a result of an overdose of mysteries and paganism, it resurrected itself and virtually reconquered the whole Western world. Christianity contains enough of Jesus’ teachings to immortalize it."

There’s nothing to consider, a book of religious fiction isn’t relevant to the Bible. 
 

cormac

[XenoFish]

40 minutes ago, openozy said:

You can't really alter this because altering it is part of the big picture, it was meant to be altered. I believe you will die on a certain designated date whatever you do. Whether you believe this or not it's a bit hard to be proven wrong.

It's also hard to prove right. Since no one knows the exact time, date, and hour they will die till after the fact. And that knowledge will be for the living to know. 

[eight bits]

44 minutes ago, Will Due said:

a crucified carpenter

I thought he was supposed to be a space alien who hobnobbed with the masters of the universe.

 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, eight bits said:

I thought he was supposed to be a space alien who hobnobbed with the masters of the universe.

 

My cousin Xenu?

[+DieChecker]

2 minutes ago, eight bits said:

I thought he was supposed to be a space alien who hobnobbed with the masters of the universe.

 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

I think a more common problem is, even if people read the Bible some every day, they don't digest it... process it... They instead go to church on Sunday and soak up what Reverend BillyBob tells them, and THAT is what they act on.

Most people aren't followers of Jesus directly. But are followers of their pastor/priest/minister. Which is where a lot of those followers get into the weeds...

In the book Silence, it tells the story of why Christianity failed in Japan in the 17th century. The Japanese Christians were devout, but their understanding of Christianity was fatally flawed. They were willing to martyr themselves for their Faith, but they weren't dying for Christ. They were dying for which ever missionary they held allegiance to, thinking him their conduit to salvation. This earthly allegiance to foreigners alarmed Japanese leaders, seeing it as an existential threat to their authority. So, they persecuted Christianity, violently and coercively until it's virtual extinction.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[Will Due]

 

I'm sharing with you what is written in the Urantia Book, not because I think you should believe what it says, but because of how what it says has helped me to understand Christianity, the Bible, Jesus and his teachings better. If you think it's fiction and irrelevant, that's fine. But I don't look at it that way which is why I have what kind of amounts to an irresistible urge to share it. I hope that doesn't offend you. But I know you'll let me know if it does.

For example, it says this which I already posted above:

 

"High-gear spiritual performances must await the new revelation and the more general acceptance of the real religion of Jesus."

 

So what does that mean exactly? What is "the real religion of Jesus"?

This is some of what is written in the Urantia Book about what the religion of Jesus is. Just keep in mind that the it's made clear that the religion of Christianity and "the real religion of Jesus" are not the same thing.

 

"The Buddhist religion promises salvation from suffering, unending peace; the Jewish religion promises salvation from difficulties, prosperity predicated on righteousness; the Greek religion promised salvation from disharmony, ugliness, by the realization of beauty; Christianity promises salvation from sin, sanctity; Mohammedanism provides deliverance from the rigorous moral standards of Judaism and Christianity. The religion of Jesus is salvation from self, deliverance from the evils of creature isolation in time and in eternity."

"The religion of Jesus is the most dynamic influence ever to activate the human race. Jesus shattered tradition, destroyed dogma, and called mankind to the achievement of its highest ideals in time and eternity—to be perfect, even as the Father in heaven is perfect."

"The religion of Jesus is founded on faith, hope, and love."

"The religion of Jesus is the most powerful unifying influence the world has ever known." [I believe this is true because of how "the real religion of Jesus" underlies the religion of Christianity in certain ways that provides for its recognition.]

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Will Due

[cormac mac airt]

5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

So what does that mean exactly? What is "the real religion of Jesus"?

J.U.D.A.I.S.M. 
 

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

Jesus is quite literally seen, at best, as a heretic by other Jews both contemporary to his lifetime as well as modern. Historically he’s of little importance being nothing more than one of literally hundreds of other heretics in Judea, his name co-opted and set up as being far more than is in evidence. 
 

cormac

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Jesus is quite literally seen, at best, as a heretic by other Jews both contemporary to his lifetime as well as modern. Historically he’s of little importance being nothing more than one of literally hundreds of other heretics in Judea, his name co-opted and set up as being far more than is in evidence. 
 

cormac

 

So the religion of Jesus isn't Judaism.

 

 

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

So the religion of Jesus isn't Judaism.

He was an heretical Jew. 
 

cormac

[XenoFish]

[eight bits]

On the assumption that there was a specific, identifiable, and knowable historical Jesus, it is very unclear that Jesus was a "heretical" Jew.

Paul might have been a different story, and Paul might easily have more to do with initiating the non-Jewish, even anti-Jewish, form of Christianity that emerged, prospered, and eventually became the dominant form of the religion than a historical Jesus did.

Gospel Jesus, whether he was a real person or a fictional character or a bit of both, is portrayed as having stayed within the very broad spectrum of tenable Jewish teaching, so far as anybody now can tell. The Temple big hats had plenty of Jewish dissenters.

IMO, of course, and the evidence about the first 100 years of the movement is so bad (and what there is has been so doctored), that personal opinions are nearly all there is.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by eight bits