when we become ancient's are time in the universe will be mystical

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, eight bits said:

On the assumption that there was a specific, identifiable, and knowable historical Jesus, it is very unclear that Jesus was a "heretical" Jew.

Paul might have been a different story, and Paul might easily have more to do with initiating the non-Jewish, even anti-Jewish, form of Christianity that emerged, prospered, and eventually became the dominant form of the religion than a historical Jesus did.

IMO, of course, and the evidence about the first 100 years of the movement is so bad (and what there is has been so doctored), that personal opinions are nearly all there is.

True enough if you’re talking about Jesus the man, completely different if you’re talking about the Biblical Jesus who is very much seen by the Jews as a heretic, but just one heretic amongst many and the one of who’s teachings Christianity claims to know. 
 

cormac

[eight bits]

Just now, cormac mac airt said:

True enough if you’re talking about Jesus the man, completely different if you’re talking about the Biblical Jesus who is very much seen by the Jews as a heretic, but just one heretic amongst many and the one of who’s teachings Christianity claims to know. 

Which Jews are you talking about?

And which book(s) of the New Testament? I can see John maybe, but I'd need your help understanding how the synoptics (Mark plus the sermon on the mount-or-plain, more or less) would gravely offend Jewish religious sentiment (then or now).

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Which Jews are you talking about?

And which book(s) of the New Testament? I can see John maybe, but I'd need your help understanding how the synoptics (Mark plus the sermon on the mount-or-plain, more or less) would gravely offend Jewish religious sentiment (then or now).

Any devout and contemporary Jew of his lifetime who lived long enough to hear about his alleged miracles and his being considered the Messiah would have no choice but to consider him a heretic. They were looking for a literal warrior-priest messiah not a religious one. The specific claim in Matthew 5:17 that HE specifically had come to fulfill the Law would also have been taken as heretical. The Pharisees would have adhered to strict Mosaic Laws. Anything Jesus did to the contrary would also be seen as heretical. Jews today pretty much see him the same way. 
 

cormac

[+DieChecker]

33 minutes ago, eight bits said:

On the assumption that there was a specific, identifiable, and knowable historical Jesus, it is very unclear that Jesus was a "heretical" Jew.

Paul might have been a different story, and Paul might easily have more to do with initiating the non-Jewish, even anti-Jewish, form of Christianity that emerged, prospered, and eventually became the dominant form of the religion than a historical Jesus did.

Gospel Jesus, whether he was a real person or a fictional character or a bit of both, is portrayed as having stayed within the very broad spectrum of tenable Jewish teaching, so far as anybody now can tell. The Temple big hats had plenty of Jewish dissenters.

IMO, of course, and the evidence about the first 100 years of the movement is so bad (and what there is has been so doctored), that personal opinions are nearly all there is.

 

Depends. If Jesus actually said. "I am" in the way the Bible intends. Then he was actually claiming to BE God. Can't get much more of a heretic then that. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_am_(biblical_term)

Otherwise, IMHO, yes, he followed Jewish law to the letter, if not to the Pharisees liking.

[Will Due]

 

If Jesus IS God, then the religion of Jesus IS God's religion.

If the religions of the Jews, Christians and Muslims aren't GOD'S religion, then all three religions are heretical.

 

 

[XenoFish]

God is an idea and so is the biblical Jesus. Believing that Jesus is god doesn't make it so.

[cormac mac airt]

20 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Depends. If Jesus actually said. "I am" in the way the Bible intends. Then he was actually claiming to BE God. Can't get much more of a heretic then that. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_am_(biblical_term)

Otherwise, IMHO, yes, he followed Jewish law to the letter, if not to the Pharisees liking.

If the Bible is to be believed then the following condemns him: 

Quote

John 4:25-26

New King James Version

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”

26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

and 

Quote

 

Matthew 16:15-20 KJV

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

 

From a Jewish standpoint he’s very much a heretic. 
 

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

14 minutes ago, Will Due said:

If Jesus IS God, then the religion of Jesus IS God's religion.

If the religions of the Jews, Christians and Muslims aren't GOD'S religion, then all three religions are heretical.

Key word is “IF”. Claiming it doesn’t make it true. 
 

cormac

[Will Due]

9 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Key word is “IF”. Claiming it doesn’t make it true. 
 

cormac

 

I meant "SINCE"

 

 

[cormac mac airt]

Just now, Will Due said:

I meant "SINCE"

It’s still just a claim and a heretical one at that according to Judaism. The Biblical Jesus would have known he was committing heresy if he told his disciples to keep it secret. The Sanhedrin could have had him condemned on the spot for that. 
 

cormac

[openozy]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

It's also hard to prove right. Since no one knows the exact time, date, and hour they will die till after the fact. And that knowledge will be for the living to know. 

Exactly, that's why the theory is foolproof.😁

[+Hammerclaw]

24 minutes ago, openozy said:

Exactly, that's why the theory is foolproof.😁

Well, thank you, wise fool, for that admission. 

[openozy]

12 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Well, thank you, wise fool, for that admission. 

No worries Dr Phil 🤣. And I was speaking of the fools questioning it 👍

Edited December 3, 2023 by openozy

[openozy]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

It's also hard to prove right. Since no one knows the exact time, date, and hour they will die till after the fact. And that knowledge will be for the living to know. 

I've heard of many cases where people got premonitions of their own death, reported it and later proved to be true.

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, openozy said:

I've heard of many cases where people got premonitions of their own death, reported it and later proved to be true.

So? 

[+Hammerclaw]

Self-fulfilling prophecies don't count for anything. 

[+DieChecker]

4 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

If the Bible is to be believed then the following condemns him: 

and 

From a Jewish standpoint he’s very much a heretic. 
 

cormac

Yeah, I was agreeing with you.

[+DieChecker]

4 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

If Jesus IS God, then the religion of Jesus IS God's religion.

If the religions of the Jews, Christians and Muslims aren't GOD'S religion, then all three religions are heretical.

 

I believe, technically, each considers the other two as mistaken, and thus heretical.

Heresy is a belief contrary to the teachings of a religion. Since Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, each teach something different each is a heresy to the others. 

Though in practice few people care.

[darkmoonlady]

Jesus no offense is as a discussion topic is boring AF. For the reasons stated earlier, his historiography is what is, but people who supposedly worship him don't really worship him. So deep discussion mind as well be about Charlie the Unicorn. There's more info about him and its much more entertaining. 

 

[openozy]

2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Self-fulfilling prophecies don't count for anything. 

They count as a self fulfilling prophecy, which is something. 

[openozy]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

So? 

What?

[Piney]

10 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Judaism is what's heretical.

 

 

And Sadler's SDA antisemitism comes screaming out.....

[Piney]

9 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Seen from the other side, yes.

Both Judiasm and Christianity, being heretical to the Muslims.

Not to Muslims. They just see it as a step before.

[eight bits]

10 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Any devout and contemporary Jew of his lifetime who lived long enough to hear about his alleged miracles and his being considered the Messiah would have no choice but to consider him a heretic. They were looking for a literal warrior-priest messiah not a religious one. The specific claim in Matthew 5:17 that HE specifically had come to fulfill the Law would also have been taken as heretical. The Pharisees would have adhered to strict Mosaic Laws. Anything Jesus did to the contrary would also be seen as heretical. Jews today pretty much see him the same way. 

You raise the additional complication that the Mark + Matthew portrayal of the Pharisees is not widely considered to be historically accurate. Meanwhile, as even so casual a scholar as our own Mr Walker noted, (synoptic) Jesus is very similar to a historical Pharisee.

Judaism is not a creedal religion, but matrilineal hereditary. And as Josephus tells it, Second Temple Judaism had plural "schools" (the root meaning of heresies). School adherence was also labile - the young Josephus moved from one to another, and ended up (I think) as an idiosyncratic Pharisee - definitely not his father's Judaism. This makes it difficult for any Second Temple Jew to be a "heretic" in the creedal Christian sense. Josephus literally made war on the Temple authorities, but did not consider himself a heretic, and was surely not an apostate.

My claim is not that Jesus was or wasn't a "heretic" but rather it is very unclear from the Bible whether the story character is or isn't a "heretic."

I did note in discussion that John's Jesus is different from the synoptics' and presents classification problems of its own:

10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Depends. If Jesus actually said. "I am" in the way the Bible intends. Then he was actually claiming to BE God. Can't get much more of a heretic then that. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_am_(biblical_term)

Otherwise, IMHO, yes, he followed Jewish law to the letter, if not to the Pharisees liking.

I'd be more careful than you about proclaiming the Bible's "intent." Regardless, John's Jesus is a thoroughly Hellenized Jew. He and near-contemporary Philo of Alexandria would have had some great conversations.

Both would be Jews in good standing. Philo would have had an easier time of it, since Alexandria had many Jews who were interested in Greek philosophy. As a Galilean, Jesus wouldn't have had much problem if he'd have remained in that area (well, OK, he'd need to be careful what he said about divorce, since Antipas was touchy about that subject, but otherwise ...) since Galilee was a "relaxed" religious environment.

Despite (or maybe because of) his Hellenized and diaspora status, Philo was picked for a diplomatic assignment representing Judean interests in Rome. There's a limit, then, to how much he could have been viewed as a heretic by even the closest thing Judaism had to an "official" authority.

Philo's program was to integrate Greek philosophy with Hebrew scripture. Far from heretical, that project was viewed as restorative (some Jews would claim that Plato was a follower of Moses, and so reconciliation was orthodox in the strongest possible sense).

Read within some strands of Greek Philosophy, those where all things and people are emanations of The One, and assuming that someone could in good faith trace that kind of idea back through Moses to Plato and his school(s) - hmm. Jesus could tick off other, less Hellenized, Jews (the big miracle in John is that Jesus wasn't stoned to death by angry Jews, and so lived long enough to be crucified), but he wouldn't be alone in that.

In Judea, he'd stick out. In Alexandria, he'd be a welcome drinking buddy.

As I've also said in previous posts, the state of the evidence is pitiful. In Jesus, we may be discussing a "person" who never existed, or a fictional character whose author(s) we know nothing about - which kinda complicates figuring out their intentions. For the nature of terminal Second Temple Judaism, we have Josephus and Philo writing straightforward narratives and various pieces of non-canonical Jewish literature to puzzle out what beliefs those works represent. Note that unlike Christianity, in a Jewish context "non-canonical" doesn't mean "heretical."

All in all, I'll stand by my observation that Jesus's  being portrayed as some kind of globally unacceptable Jew is very unclear, that that is an opinion on my part, and obviously other people hold other views.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by eight bits

[Will Due]

9 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I believe, technically, each considers the other two as mistaken, and thus heretical.

Heresy is a belief contrary to the teachings of a religion. Since Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, each teach something different each is a heresy to the others. 

Though in practice few people care.

 

In a general sense let's look at heresy for what it really is. 

From the standpoint of men and their religious beliefs, anyone who doesn't believe the same things they do, is a heretic.

From the standpoint of God, no one is a heretic.

Men accused Jesus of being a heretic. So when a person follows Jesus, they will be a heretic too in the eyes of men.

But not in God's eyes.

Heresy is a man-made idea. With God, there is no such thing as heresy.

In a way, if you're not a heretic, then you're not with God.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Will Due