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Hate to admit it but Hamas (and their Western supporters) might just be winning


Unusual Tournament

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The slow release/exchange of prisoners is effectively playing for Hamas survival. 
 

Personally, I find it despicable. Countries like the UK, Spain and others have effectively made Hamas an official interlocutor by breaking ranks with Israel, America and the majority of Europe, by making Palestinian nationhood a priority for peace. Not saying the Palestinians don’t deserve a natio, just not at this point. 
 

 

 

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No 

Bibi lost 

Bibi was already losing before the likud staged a coup to reinstate that thug... 

Now he's just added war criminal and genocidal maniac to his list of achievements...

He's going to be shorned, blinded and chained... 

Benjamin will be given his asses jaw 

~

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3 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

The slow release/exchange of prisoners is effectively playing for Hamas survival. 
Personally, I find it despicable. Countries like the UK, Spain and others have effectively made Hamas an official interlocutor by breaking ranks with Israel, America and the majority of Europe, by making Palestinian nationhood a priority for peace. Not saying the Palestinians don’t deserve a natio, just not at this point. 

Israel has an odd attitude towards hostage negotiation.  At one stage they released 1000+ Hamas fighters for a single Israeli soldier.  It simply wasn't worth it.  Far better to take the families of the Hamas leadership hostage imo.

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5 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Israel has an odd attitude towards hostage negotiation.  At one stage they released 1000+ Hamas fighters for a single Israeli soldier.  It simply wasn't worth it.  Far better to take the families of the Hamas leadership hostage imo.

The majority live lavishly in places like Qatar and Turkey. Supposedly Western allies. 

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3 hours ago, SHaYap said:

No 

Bibi lost 

Bibi was already losing before the likud staged a coup to reinstate that thug... 

Now he's just added war criminal and genocidal maniac to his list of achievements...

He's going to be shorned, blinded and chained... 

Benjamin will be given his asses jaw 

~

You've been spending too much time listening to Raptor's prose.  Your allusion to Samson could turn out to be prophetic ;)   Not surprised to see you support the demons of 10/7.  Not surprised at all.

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50 minutes ago, and-then said:

You've been spending too much time listening to Raptor's prose.  Your allusion to Samson could turn out to be prophetic ;)   Not surprised to see you support the demons of 10/7.  Not surprised at all.

Your demented dying bed is being readied... 

Bibi will spit on you before burning you up for the glory of the Likud... 

Have fun... 

Quote

Israeli Protest For PM Benjamin Netanyahu To Resign In Jerusalem

 
Israelis hold posters and chant "Guilty" at a protest calling for the resignation of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu outside his residence in Jerusalem on Saturday, November 25, 2023. Demonstrators blame Netanyahu for failing to keep the people of the Gaza border communities secure from the October 7 Hamas massacre. Photo by Debbie Hill/ UPI

https://www.upi.com/News_Photos/view/upi/4b827003e3087bfd525f966574c9bfc2/Israeli-Protest-For-PM-Benjamin-Netanyahu-To-Resign-In-Jerusalem/

~

To live, you only have to die... Poor Jerusalem... 

~

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8 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Israel has an odd attitude towards hostage negotiation.  At one stage they released 1000+ Hamas fighters for a single Israeli soldier.  It simply wasn't worth it.  Far better to take the families of the Hamas leadership hostage imo.

A Moral Case Against the Israeli Hostage Deal

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the return of hostages “a sacred duty” and quoted the 12th-century sage Maimonides, to the effect that redeeming Jewish prisoners (pidyon shvuyim) is a great mitzvah. (Islam commands a similar duty to free prisoners.) Netanyahu omitted mention of the various restrictions on this blessed activity—the most important of which is not to overpay for hostages, or do anything else that might encourage more hostage-taking.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/11/israel-hamas-hostage-deal-worthwhile/676096/

But what the article also mentions is that Israelis do not view the exchange as payment owed to Hamas; it is a payment Israel owes to the families of the hostages for having failed to protect them. Perhaps this thinking is one reason why Israel has a history of agreeing to lopsided exchanges.

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17 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

The slow release/exchange of prisoners is effectively playing for Hamas survival. 

I think you are being too pessimistic.

Hamas gets a breather to regroup, true enough.   The IDF and Mossad are not twiddling their fingers and waiting.  All of the data found in the tunnels is being scrutinized for names, contacts, plans, and maybe even hostage locations. All of the other data provided by Israel's Western allies is being collated. Every minute of the pause is being used to the full extent by Israel. The tunnel system and landlines Hamas used are all compromised now. Every communication with Hamas about hostages reveals info on locations and individuals.  

Not taking hostages does not spare any lives.  Practically, if the terrorist group did not take hostages, they would have just killed those people.   Freeing the hostages is important for Israel as well as their allies and the world.  It is a positive to the image of Israel but does not remove the stain from Hamas.

Israel and its allies are not going to let this drop.  The IDF can take on and defeat Hamas foot soldiers in Gaza or Hezbollah in  northern Israel.   Meanwhile, as Israel capably displayed hunting Nazis after WWII, no country will ultimately be safe from Hamas leadership.   Mossad does not need a war or the support of helicopters or tanks to take out Hamas leadership.   If a Taliban leader can be taken out by a hellfire missile while standing on his balcony in downtown Kabul, no Hamas leader will be safe anywhere.  Its hard to lead while they are are the run. 

War - conflict -  like this is not settled on the battlefield.  For Israel to free prisoners and Hamas to release hostages takes the conflict into the realm of world opinion and sympathy.  Israel can win this  necessary part of resolving the conflict.

 

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7 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Israel and its allies are not going to let this drop.  The IDF can take on and defeat Hamas foot soldiers in Gaza or Hezbollah in  northern Israel.   Meanwhile, as Israel capably displayed hunting Nazis after WWII, no country will ultimately be safe for Hamas leadership.   

 

This is an especially powerful point.

Edited by Antigonos
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On 11/26/2023 at 3:36 AM, Unusual Tournament said:

 Not saying the Palestinians don’t deserve a natio, just not at this point. 

No, they deserved it decades ago when they were first driven out of it.

20 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Israel and its allies are not going to let this drop.  The IDF can take on and defeat Hamas foot soldiers in Gaza or Hezbollah in  northern Israel.   Meanwhile, as Israel capably displayed hunting Nazis after WWII, no country will ultimately be safe from Hamas leadership.   Mossad does not need a war or the support of helicopters or tanks to take out Hamas leadership.   If a Taliban leader can be taken out by a hellfire missile while standing on his balcony in downtown Kabul, no Hamas leader will be safe anywhere.  Its hard to lead while they are are the run. 

Which just re-emphasises how unnecessary it is for Israel to be bombing civilians and claiming collateral damage.

If Israel wanted the Hamas leadership dead, they could easily assassinate them.

This is collective punishment.

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10 minutes ago, Setton said:

No, they deserved it decades ago when they were first driven out of it.

Which just re-emphasises how unnecessary it is for Israel to be bombing civilians and claiming collateral damage.

If Israel wanted the Hamas leadership dead, they could easily assassinate them.

This is collective punishment.

Yes, revenge satisfies a short term desire, but does not lead to good in the long term.   That was the US advice to Israel that took us 25 years in Afghanistan and Iraq to learn.  Killing civilians recruits a new generation of terrorists.

To end the conflict, it will take people on both sides to look further than tomorrow's revenge for today's crimes.

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2 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes, revenge satisfies a short term desire, but does not lead to good in the long term.   That was the US advice to Israel that took us 25 years in Afghanistan and Iraq to learn.  Killing civilians recruits a new generation of terrorists.

To end the conflict, it will take people on both sides to look further than tomorrow's revenge for today's crimes.

Exactly. But as we can see in these threads, most are too stupid to learn from their own failures nevermind others'.

Every time we've tried to bomb an ideology out of existence, something worse has replaced it. Wonder what will come out of the ashes of Hamas.

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23 minutes ago, Setton said:

No, they deserved it decades ago when they were first driven out of it.

Well Setton that’s a debatable statement as there has never been a Palestinian state before. Jordan is home to over 50% Palestinians. That’s their state.
 

Under Arafat, they had a peace agreement that would have given them a viable state encompassing Gaza and the West Bank, organised under Clinton but they didn’t want to accept the reality on the ground. 

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29 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes, revenge satisfies a short term desire, but does not lead to good in the long term.   That was the US advice to Israel that took us 25 years in Afghanistan and Iraq to learn.  Killing civilians recruits a new generation of terrorists.

To end the conflict, it will take people on both sides to look further than tomorrow's revenge for today's crimes.

I don’t honestly think there will ever be peace between Israel and any Palestinian entity/state. A steady watchful calm is probably the best both sides can hope for

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29 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Well Setton that’s a debatable statement as there has never been a Palestinian state before. Jordan is home to over 50% Palestinians. That’s their state.

My mistake, not their state, just their home. All good then, carry on...

Quote

Under Arafat, they had a peace agreement that would have given them a viable state encompassing Gaza and the West Bank, organised under Clinton but they didn’t want to accept the reality on the ground. 

And why should they accept the theft of their land? We don't expect Ukraine to just give up land to Russia, why do we expect Palestinians to hand it to Israel?

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50 minutes ago, Setton said:

My mistake, not their state, just their home. All good then, carry on...

And why should they accept the theft of their land? We don't expect Ukraine to just give up land to Russia, why do we expect Palestinians to hand it to Israel?

Oh now you’re singing ‘river to the sea’. 

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2 hours ago, Setton said:

Exactly. But as we can see in these threads, most are too stupid to learn from their own failures nevermind others'.

Every time we've tried to bomb an ideology out of existence, something worse has replaced it. Wonder what will come out of the ashes of Hamas.

I disagree.  We are learning, painfully slowly, but we are learning.  Those who are entrenched in the status quo may be stupid or they may be only manipulating the situation for personal power.

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2 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

I don’t honestly think there will ever be peace between Israel and any Palestinian entity/state. A steady watchful calm is probably the best both sides can hope for

Maybe.

My bias is toward a Star Trek future, not one of Hunger Games and the  Handmaid's Tale.

Every day every one of us makes tiny choices as to which direction we want the future to go.  It is hard to convince people  that are wounded, hungry and feel unjustly treated that there can be a Star Trek future with them in it.   First we need to feed, clothe, and bandage them  before we can convince them that a better world is possible.

 In practical terms to change behaviors requires work.  I don't mean to denigrate humans, but they respond similarly to dogs and horses if you have ever tried to show a pet a new behavior.  It is encouraged by small steps and rewards, not punishment for failure.  Humans respond similarly.  Biblical wisdom from the patriarchy of spare the rod and spoil the child only works in an  climate of fear and autocratic control.  It doesn't work in freedom.  Love is stronger than fear in the end.

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On 11/26/2023 at 2:36 PM, Unusual Tournament said:

The slow release/exchange of prisoners is effectively playing for Hamas survival. 
 

Personally, I find it despicable. Countries like the UK, Spain and others have effectively made Hamas an official interlocutor by breaking ranks with Israel, America and the majority of Europe, by making Palestinian nationhood a priority for peace. Not saying the Palestinians don’t deserve a natio, just not at this point. 
 

 

 

A case of "you're damned if you do and damned if you don't".  How do you save all hostages, many of which are children and defeat an enemy that's dug in deep?  Even going in with special forces in these fortified tunnels is risky and doesn't guarantee the rescue of hostages.  Negotiating for peace with Hamas is never going to happen, even without Zionists in Govt, so Israel has serious decisions to make and absolutely none of them find a 100% consenses.

The slow release is definitely playing in the hands of Hamas but it's far from a win, in fact I think their leadership is now living on borrowed time.  Maybe something better to ask for a proper discussion in a thread would be "what's a win for Hamas look like?" and/or "what's a win for Israel look like?" followed immediately by "what do they have to do to achieve this?"

My answers:  Hamas can only eradicate Israel from Judea etc. if the Islamic world rises against them in unison and the US abandons Israel to it's destiny.  Israel can achieve peace with Palestinians only if they stop Zionism, stop illegal settlements, stop blockading and turn Palestinians against radical Islam.

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Hate to admit it but Hamas (and their Western supporters) might just be winning?

I agree why Hamas is not releasing any Americans so the Americans will keep the truse going on, more time so Hamas can reorganize their groups to attack Israel  again :(

 

Edited by docyabut2
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1 hour ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Oh now you’re singing ‘river to the sea’. 

Good try at deflection. Has and-then been giving lessons?

If you mean I think land which legally belongs to the Palestinian people should be ruled by the Palestinian people without constraints imposed by a more powerful neighbour, then yes.

If you mean I think Israel should be wiped off the map then, no.

Now how about the content of my post? Do you think Ukraine should give up occupied areas for the sake of peace? Should Britain have surrendered to the Nazis to stop the blitz?

Or is it only Palestinians held to that standard?

Edited by Setton
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29 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I disagree.  We are learning, painfully slowly, but we are learning.  Those who are entrenched in the status quo may be stupid or they may be only manipulating the situation for personal power.

We (nations) are learning. We (random people) are not. Based on the responses here to 07 Oct anyway.

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13 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

My answers:  Hamas can only eradicate Israel from Judea etc. if the Islamic world rises against them in unison and the US abandons Israel to it's destiny.  Israel can achieve peace with Palestinians only if they stop Zionism, stop illegal settlements, stop blockading and turn Palestinians against radical Islam.

You might find the following article interesting.

What Will Happen in Gaza After Israel Stops Its War on Hamas?

As Israel has waged its war in the Gaza Strip, officials across the world are united in trying to figure out how to restore order when all the fighting stops. There’s little agreement, however, and even less optimism.

Israel’s goal is to eradicate Hamas and secure the enclave.  But like so much about the events of the Palestinian militant group’s Oct. 7 attack on the Jewish state and its aftermath, what advocates seek for the future of Gaza reflects how they interpret the past — and on that, they can’t agree.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/what-will-happen-in-gaza-after-israel-stops-its-war-on-hamas-1.2001955

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25 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

For anyone who's interested, the following is a good article on the phrase 'from the river to the sea' and why it's become so controversial.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23972967/river-to-sea-palestine-israel-hamas

Yep, lots of nuance, completely ignored by the pro-war crowd who use it as a get out of jail free when losing a debate. See above example.

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