Hate to admit it but Hamas (and their Western supporters) might just be winning

[Unusual Tournament]

40 minutes ago, Setton said:

Good try at deflection. Has and-then been giving lessons?

If you mean I think land which legally belongs to the Palestinian people should be ruled by the Palestinian people without constraints imposed by a more powerful neighbour, then yes.

If you mean I think Israel should be wiped off the map then, no.

Now how about the content of my post? Do you think Ukraine should give up occupied areas for the sake of peace? Should Britain have surrendered to the Nazis to stop the blitz?

Or is it only Palestinians held to that standard?

You have read differently to what you just wrote.

I do not believe in to independent states like Israel and Palestine living next to each other in some utopian sense since it would imply both would have their own independent foreign policy and it will not work. 
 

Could you imagine Palestine having a defence agreement with Russia, Iran or Turkey were their troops would sit next to Israel? Never in a million years. Israel buys off, destroys and destabilises in order to survive because they have no other choice. 
 

This is the hunger games and no Star Trek. 
 

@Tatetopa

[Black Red Devil]

2 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

You might find the following article interesting.

What Will Happen in Gaza After Israel Stops Its War on Hamas?

As Israel has waged its war in the Gaza Strip, officials across the world are united in trying to figure out how to restore order when all the fighting stops. There’s little agreement, however, and even less optimism.

Israel’s goal is to eradicate Hamas and secure the enclave.  But like so much about the events of the Palestinian militant group’s Oct. 7 attack on the Jewish state and its aftermath, what advocates seek for the future of Gaza reflects how they interpret the past — and on that, they can’t agree.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/what-will-happen-in-gaza-after-israel-stops-its-war-on-hamas-1.2001955

So many options and probably none of them are viable for one reason or another and some are totally laughable.  As I said in my previous post, "Negotiating for peace with Hamas is never going to happen, even without Zionists in Govt, so Israel has serious decisions to make and absolutely none of them find a 100% consenses."

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, Setton said:

We (nations) are learning. We (random people) are not. Based on the responses here to 07 Oct anyway.

I was a statistical analyst for a lot of years. I see things as a continuum rather than binary outcome.  There is a peak somewhere that trails off to either side.  That peak may be near the midline.   In our case, we are looking at emotions and public opinion.  Slight shifts in people's beliefs  moves that peak.  Its a balance point, and sometimes when it begins to move, it goes swiftly. We are not as far away from a shift toward something more positive as you might think. 

[Tatetopa]

5 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

This is the hunger games and no Star Trek. 

No doubt about it.  In a way it makes things easier.  Almost anything will be an improvement.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:40 AM, Setton said:

Good try at deflection. Has and-then been giving lessons?

If you mean I think land which legally belongs to the Palestinian people should be ruled by the Palestinian people without constraints imposed by a more powerful neighbour, then yes.

If you mean I think Israel should be wiped off the map then, no.

Now how about the content of my post? Do you think Ukraine should give up occupied areas for the sake of peace? Should Britain have surrendered to the Nazis to stop the blitz?

Or is it only Palestinians held to that standard?

No no, you see the British were allies of the PTB. The Ukrainians? Useful puppets. 
Therefore both groups are considered to be right in their resistance. 
The Palestinians have nothing to offer therefore are considered to be criminals and terrorists. 
The firebombing of Dresden? Hiroshima? Had to be done to win the war. 
7\10? Criminal terrorism that needs to be stamped out.

[+and-then]

On 11/27/2023 at 4:27 PM, Unusual Tournament said:

Israel buys off, destroys and destabilises in order to survive because they have no other choice. 

THIS^ is a fact and those who support the Palestinian Arabs either cannot be fussed with reading the history or they simply ignore the fact that the Palestinians, for several generations, have totally refused and walked away from ANY accommodation that would leave Jews as their neighbors.  Their leaders have made it very clear that what they accomplished on 10/7 was just the first strike.  They've said it will be done again, and again.

I saw this today out of the US - Columbia University had to step in and refuse this group a platform to essentially justify the slaughter of October 7th as a valid "counter offensive".  

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/381437

Slowly but inexorably, the US, especially those on the Left, are abandoning Israel's right not only to self defense but even to exist at all.  In driving this hateful rhetoric to the fore, they will eventually succeed in causing America to begin actively working against Israel and on behal of Islamic nations like Iran.  I'm just a good ole boy from Bama but even I can see where THAT trajectory is going to end.  

[acidhead]

On 12/1/2023 at 12:53 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

The firebombing of Dresden? Hiroshima? Had to be done to win the war. 

This has been debated for decades with logical arguments on both sides. War is hell and why all efforts to negotiate for peaceful compromises never be abandoned or shunned upon by the loud mouth chicken hawks who advocate for continuous conflict as means of resolution. 

 

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, and-then said:

I'm just a good ole boy from Bama but even I can see where THAT trajectory is going to end.  

Well Bama Boy, you may be right and you may be wrong.  The world is changing  for sure.  It did not start with Donald Trump or MAGA  Republicans, lots of Independents and Democrats are sick of being the world's policeman too.  It shapes Democratic policy and Biden's administration too.  

We want out of the Middle East. Our vision was Israel embraced by Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and the Gulf States as the center of power before 10/7.  I think it is still the best plan  and we will return to it.  The Gulf States and Saudi Arabia have the raw materials, but Israel is the trade and technical hub of the region. They can enhance each other.  If we want out of the Middle East, we have to get this back on track.   Support for overseas wars is diminishing in the US.  

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Well Bama Boy, you may be right and you may be wrong.  The world is changing  for sure.  It did not start with Donald Trump or MAGA  Republicans, lots of Independents and Democrats are sick of being the world's policeman too.  It shapes Democratic policy and Biden's administration too.  

We want out of the Middle East. Our vision was Israel embraced by Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and the Gulf States as the center of power before 10/7.  I think it is still the best plan  and we will return to it.  The Gulf States and Saudi Arabia have the raw materials, but Israel is the trade and technical hub of the region. They can enhance each other.  If we want out of the Middle East, we have to get this back on track.   Support for overseas wars is diminishing in the US.  

Bold: it’s when Americans support for overseas wars wanes that America will relinquish political/economic/military and cultural control. Wars cost money and lives because they make money and save Americans. 
 

I look at America as an empire and history has taught us that when an empire stops growing it recedes and leaves a power vacuum that’s quickly filled. 
 

In order to control the future you need to change the present not react to change brought on by others. 
 

Leaving the Middle East means others will enter and get strong on what America has left behind. 18 months ago America embraced and dictated a war with Russia and Ukraine because it was present in Europe and Ukraine. If America continues to recede maybe in 50 years time Russia will return the favour and dictate a war between America and Mexico. 
 

Being the world policeman has its advantages and they far outweigh the disadvantages IMO

[Hawken]

[Tatetopa]

7 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Wars cost money and lives because they make money and save Americans. 

A great deal of thoughtful reflection in your comment.  This was not among the best.  It does not follow that savings and cost are linked.  War may add to technology, but it does not create wealth, it transfers it from the common man to the elite and destroys a good bit of it during the transfer...  

Power evolves and changes along with society, it takes time, sometimes a generation or more for the shift to occur.  I think we re living in such a time.  Our power is not diminishing, nor do I want it to, but it may be evolving. We have blundered and we have caused evil in the world as well as sometimes doing some good. I am not convinced another nation could have done better in our place, and possibly a lot worse. But we must learn from experience.

IMO, One of the dumbest ideas in Trumpism is that we would be better off building walls and hiding in our land without looking over those walls for approaching danger.  We are not safer hiding from the world.

Change does not mean the cessation of growth or surrender to another.  War is not required for human change and growth nor to develop individual characteristics of  courage and kindness.  Sacrifice and death will come even without battle.

We stand with our toes on the edge of  Space.   Whatever power we currently have will be enough to take the next step, but we will need more to go further.  Humans still have ample opportunities to grow and develop our best qualities as individuals and as a race.

The US can lead in what will come next both on earth and beyond.  We will be needed, maybe sometimes to be the World's EMT rather than the world's policeman. You have to fight hard to protect what you cherish as well as fighting to destroy what you hate. 

 

 

[Unusual Tournament]

11 hours ago, acidhead said:

This has been debated for decades with logical arguments on both sides. War is hell and why all efforts to negotiate for peaceful compromises never be abandoned or shunned upon by the loud mouth chicken hawks who advocate for continuous conflict as means of resolution. 

 

…from time to time I read about these /\ comparisons of unending wars as evil and dangerous and never stopped being amazed at the hypocrisy of the statement.

Using America and WW2 as an example: Nazi Germany and Japan were two of the most despicable and murderous regimes in recent memory. Killed thousands of innocent civilians, trying to impose a racial and imperial rule upon others. They got what was necessary to end the brutality. Did civilians get hurt? Yes! But the result far outweighed any other factors. 
 

Can’t avert evil with gift cards and threatening emails 

[acidhead]

10 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Can’t avert evil with gift cards and threatening emails 

Well, then put your money where your mouth is and go fight these wars if that's what you truly believe keyboard warrior. 

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, acidhead said:

Well, then put your money where your mouth is and go fight these wars if that's what you truly believe keyboard warrior. 

A little too old to be jumping outta planes but I’m happy to sniper. 

[Unusual Tournament]

An interesting angle on these forever wars on the Middle East is the move away from fossil fuels to renewables. Trade, immigration and terrorism are all interconnected. Can’t solve these problems if the west just ignores them.

[+and-then]

15 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

It shapes Democratic policy and Biden's administration too.  

We want out of the Middle East. Our vision was Israel embraced by Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and the Gulf States as the center of power before 10/7.  I think it is still the best plan  and we will return to it.

I simply see no evidence of this.  It is clear that the current administration - whoever is calling the shots - is still adamant in their support of Tehran, even while cheering Israel on.  It remains to be seen how long Israel will be able to resist the growing US pressure but this article gives me hope:

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/381487

Israel isn't denying the overall numbers of dead but is saying that considering the Hamas strategy of literally hiding among civilians, the 2:1 ratio of civilian casualties to combatants is the best they can achieve.  I think they have renewed the onslaught with intensity because they realize that at some point they will run low on munitions and MUST have US support to restock.  I hope the DC minions are intelligent enough to know that Israel is the one nation on the planet that can be assumed to be fully willing and capable of using nuclear weapons if their survival is at stake.  

Meanwhile, that same DC crowd is playing PR games and taking measures that simply make the nation look weaker in light of Iranian proxy attacks on our Navy.  The Ford Carrier strike group could RAVAGE Houthi positions, troops, infrastructure and incoming supplies they depend upon Iran for and it wouldn't even require weeks.  We have the technology to know where every radar, weapons cache, and troop concentration is located in that pestilential backwater.  The ONLY reason they are still able to threaten global trade and keep trying to attack US forces is the lack of will of the DC overlords.

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, and-then said:

I simply see no evidence of this.  It is clear that the current administration - whoever is calling the shots - is still adamant in their support of Tehran, even while cheering Israel on.

OK, because you see no evidence, proves little. I don't think Israeli and US agents keep you posted on their internal activities in Iran.  With a large portion of the Iranian population chaffing at the ayatollahs as they have already  demonstrated by their protests, they are the folks that will help turn Iran.  We don't want to bomb those very people that might be our allies.  Meanwhile we are trying to cajole and seem rational and our efforts are to them rather than thinking we are going to turn the ayatollahs.  It is worth an investment in time and effort  to see if we can succeed.  It will be a lot cheaper and in the end benefit Israel if we can avoid war with Iran.   We are looking for stability for our allies and an exit route for the US.

Sure we could blow up the Middle East, but there are a lot of folks including NT Christians, many Jews and Muslims who would like to find a better way. 

2 hours ago, and-then said:

Israel isn't denying the overall numbers of dead but is saying that considering the Hamas strategy of literally hiding among civilians, the 2:1 ratio of civilian casualties to combatants is the best they can achieve.

This has gotta be the stupidest PR release in modern times.   You think killing two innocents for the price of 1 terrorist is a good deal? 

If a drug dealer moved in down the street from you and the cops surrounded your neighborhood and had a shoot out with the dealer, would you be happy justice was served?  I would.  If in the crossfire they killed your wife and daughter and the cops said,  "We killed the dealer and only two civilians so it was worth it,"  would you think so?  Would you become a friend to police and a law abiding citizen after that?

 Yes, the modern world is going to part ways with the Biblically  constipated Middle East if they cannot move out of the eye for two eyes and a hand justice  code of Hammurabi.