Top German politician calls for closer links between UK and EU

[Destination Unknown]

33 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Just like you cannot be a sovereign member of any club if, while you remain a member, its laws apply. You have to be a team player or you are out. I know people who have disagreed with changes to club rules and leave. 

While Ireland is a member of the EU it is completely happy to let it legislate for its own Single Market and Customs Union. And we get to [articipate in the rule making procedure.

Oh, so just like I said, you can't actually be a sovereign nation whilst being a member of the European Union then. Right, got it. Glad we've finally cleared that one up.

Like I've already told you, I understand perfectly how the EU "works". Apology accepted, you're welcome.

Now, can you name me a valid reason why you think a supposedly sovereign nation should have its own laws struck down in favour of another political entities laws? 🤔

Edited December 9, 2023 by Destination Unknown

[pellinore]

6 hours ago, Destination Unknown said:

Now, can you name me a valid reason why you think a supposedly sovereign nation should have its own laws struck down in favour of another political entities laws? 🤔

Oh, I don't know. Since international agreements require some sublimation of sovereignty as we have to agree an international consensus, perhaps we should leave AUKUS, NATO, and the OCBR. While we are at it, why don't we leave all Earthly agreements altogether? We could become a sort of extragalactic country trading only outside Earth.

[Destination Unknown]

10 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Oh, I don't know. Since international agreements require some sublimation of sovereignty as we have to agree an international consensus, perhaps we should leave AUKUS, NATO, and the OCBR. While we are at it, why don't we leave all Earthly agreements altogether? We could become a sort of extragalactic country trading only outside Earth.

Dear oh dear, you just don't give up do you pellinore? I can only assume you also like getting your backside handed to you on here as well. Haven't you worked it out yet? You're not talking to a retard you know, and anything you can come up with, I can, and will, counter it. 🤔

What you are doing is mistaking the two issues of National Sovereignty and Parliamentary Sovereignty, which are often confused.

You can share National Sovereignty, as we do in NATO, the United Nations and all sorts of other organisations, but Parliamentary Sovereignty is an absolute. It is not a matter of degree, it is something you either have or you have not, either Parliament can legislate as it wishes, or it cannot legislate as it wishes.

You may find this lecture from Professor Vernon Bernard Bogdanor relevant to the discussion. Have a look at the video that is in the link below, which confirms EXACTLY what I have said.

Professor Vernon Bernard Bogdanor CBE, FRSA, FBA is a British political scientist and historian who is a research professor at the 'Institute for Contemporary British History' at King's College London and professor of politics at the New College of the Humanities. He is also emeritus professor of politics and government at the University of Oxford and an emeritus fellow of Brasenose College, Oxford.

He is one of Britain's foremost constitutional experts and has written extensively on political and constitutional issues, so I would say that it's a pretty safe bet that this guy certainly knows exactly what he is talking about, wouldn't you?

The relevant part can be found at around 14m 12s.

Oh, and if you get back to me in less than 45 minutes, then I will know you will have missed a bit. 👇👇👇👇👇

https://youtu.be/BijWSNYPSn8?t=852

Edited December 10, 2023 by Destination Unknown

[Unusual Tournament]

7 hours ago, Destination Unknown said:

Oh, so just like I said, you can't actually be a sovereign nation whilst being a member of the European Union then. Right, got it. Glad we've finally cleared that one up.

Like I've already told you, I understand perfectly how the EU "works". Apology accepted, you're welcome.

Now, can you name me a valid reason why you think a supposedly sovereign nation should have its own laws struck down in favour of another political entities laws? 🤔

The UK left the EU was that sovereign enough?

[Destination Unknown]

1 minute ago, Unusual Tournament said:

The UK left the EU was that sovereign enough?

Just because there is a mechanism built into the EU treaties allowing an EU vassal to leave, that still doesn't automatically mean they are sovereign nations whilst they are EU members does it. 🤦

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Destination Unknown said:

Just because there is a mechanism built into the EU treaties allowing an EU vassal to leave, that still doesn't automatically mean they are sovereign nations whilst they are EU members does it. 🤦

Incorrect! The UK had a referendum on its own accord and enacted the will of its people. You had/have sovereignty. 

[Destination Unknown]

1 hour ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Incorrect! The UK had a referendum on its own accord and enacted the will of its people. You had/have sovereignty. 

It's not incorrect at all. Just because the UK had a referendum on its own accord, that doesn't automatically mean that we were a sovereign nation whilst we were in the EU does it. 🤦

But if you think otherwise, then why can't one of you finally explain to me why you all think a supposedly sovereign nation should have its own laws struck down in favour of another political entities laws, as under the EU treaties EU law has supremacy over national laws, therefore, in the event of conflict, EU law prevails and national laws have to be set aside. 🤔

Oh that's right, none of you can, because that would mean finally admitting what I have been saying all along, you cannot be a sovereign nation whilst being a member of the European Union. It's as simple as that. 👇👇👇👇

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/primacy_of_eu_law.html

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Destination Unknown

[Destination Unknown]

4 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

 

What's so confusing?

Are you finally going to tell me why a supposedly sovereign nation should have its own laws struck down in favour of another political entities laws or not? 👇👇👇👇

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/primacy_of_eu_law.html

Edited December 10, 2023 by Destination Unknown

[Ozymandias]

23 hours ago, Destination Unknown said:

Now, can you name me a valid reason why you think a supposedly sovereign nation should have its own laws struck down in favour of another political entities laws? 🤔

Because the country made a sovereign decision to accept those laws in order to be a member of the EU Single Market and Customs Union. The day we are not happy with this arrangement we can exercise our national sovereignty and leave. The important principle here, one which you are unwilling to accept, is that before we were in the EU, while we are in the EU, and after we should leave the EU, we are a sovereign nation.

Your disingenuous characterisation of the situation, that a supposedly sovereign country like Ireland is a ‘vassal state’ whose laws are ‘struck down’ by a ‘wannabe federal European Superstate’ (italics all your words), is an obvious self-serving generalisation intended to frame the argument to your advantage. Your argument is based on semantics of your choosing, ignoring the more important underlining truth that Ireland is and remains an independent sovereign nation. Nothing has diminished Ireland’s ability to determine either its present or its future course. We take independent national decisions and pass dozens of new laws every year that the EU has absolutely no influence, authority, or power.    

As a nation, we made a sovereign choice to grant the EU legal primacy in a limited number of competences relating to the operation of its Customs Union and Single Market and, because we want to be a part of that market along with other member countries, we, like them, voluntarily comply with any laws needed to regulate it effectively. This we do also and especially because we are an integral and active part of the EU’s law-making processes. Your so-called ‘wannabe Superstate’ is not a dictatorship grinding vassal states under a jackboot but is simply 27 member states working democratically together for their common good.

As one of the many Brexiteers who have lost the general argument about Brexit, I know that you cannot bear to admit the truth of what I say, preferring to rail against the EU and play emotive word games, so I am now done wasting any more time on your semantics.

Semantic will never impact one iota on the reality: Ireland is a sovereign nation.

[Destination Unknown]

3 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Because the country made a sovereign decision to accept those laws in order to be a member of the EU Single Market and Customs Union. The day we are not happy with this arrangement we can exercise our national sovereignty and leave. The important principle here, one which you are unwilling to accept, is that before we were in the EU, while we are in the EU, and after we should leave the EU, we are a sovereign nation.

Your disingenuous characterisation of the situation, that a supposedly sovereign country like Ireland is a ‘vassal state’ whose laws are ‘struck down’ by a ‘wannabe federal European Superstate’ (italics all your words), is an obvious self-serving generalisation intended to frame the argument to your advantage. Your argument is based on semantics of your choosing, ignoring the more important underlining truth that Ireland is and remains an independent sovereign nation. Nothing has diminished Ireland’s ability to determine either its present or its future course. We take independent national decisions and pass dozens of new laws every year that the EU has absolutely no influence, authority, or power.    

As a nation, we made a sovereign choice to grant the EU legal primacy in a limited number of competences relating to the operation of its Customs Union and Single Market and, because we want to be a part of that market along with other member countries, we, like them, voluntarily comply with any laws needed to regulate it effectively. This we do also and especially because we are an integral and active part of the EU’s law-making processes. Your so-called ‘wannabe Superstate’ is not a dictatorship grinding vassal states under a jackboot but is simply 27 member states working democratically together for their common good.

As one of the many Brexiteers who have lost the general argument about Brexit, I know that you cannot bear to admit the truth of what I say, preferring to rail against the EU and play emotive word games, so I am now done wasting any more time on your semantics.

Semantic will never impact one iota on the reality: Ireland is a sovereign nation.

So after reading all that waffle, you've just confirmed that you cannot be a sovereign nation whilst being a member of the European Union, because a higher political entity has the power to overrule another nations Parliament in the event of conflict. Just like I've been saying all along.

Now, can you finally name me a valid reason why you think a supposedly sovereign nation should have its own laws struck down in favour of another political entities laws, because despite that waffle you've just posted, you cannot seem to answer that, why not?

Ireland is a sovereign nation.

Oh really? Is that why Leo Varadkar has said that Ireland would much rather pay taxpayers money to other EU vassals rather than being forced to accept even more refugees under the EU's refugee quota scheme?

"Here's your choice, accept even more refugees, or give us even more of your cash."

Doesn't sound very "sovereign" to me. A truly sovereign nation would just tell the EU to get stuffed, considering refugee quotas has got absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the operation of its Customs Union and Single Market. 🤦👇👇👇👇👇👇

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-indicates-different-tack-on-accepting-refugees-1535392.html

🤔

Edited December 10, 2023 by Destination Unknown

[pellinore]

On 12/10/2023 at 7:46 PM, Destination Unknown said:

"Here's your choice, accept even more refugees, or give us even more of your cash."

Since Brexit has led to the UK accepting 3x as many legal, and 10x as many illegal, refugees, 2 million over 3 years, leaving the EU wasn't the answer, was it? Perhaps international co-operation might be more helpful, especially with our closest neighbours and fellow Europeans.

[Destination Unknown]

4 hours ago, pellinore said:

Since Brexit has led to the UK accepting 3x as many legal, and 10x as many illegal, refugees, 2 million over 3 years, leaving the EU wasn't the answer, was it? Perhaps international co-operation might be more helpful, especially with our closest neighbours and fellow Europeans.

Believe it or not pellinore, 'more EU' isn't the blanket answer to everything you know, and according to Human Rights organisation 'Amnesty International', the EU's new migration agreement is, quote: "Dangerous and disproportionate", so obviously selling our country out to a wannabe federal European Superstate where we would ultimately be answerable to a Politburo based in Brussels certainly isn't the answer either is it you indoctrinated EU-loving Stockholm Syndrome victim. 🤦👇👇👇👇

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/eu-new-migration-agreement-dangerous-and-disproportionate/

Edited December 12, 2023 by Destination Unknown