God Unpacked: Divine Revelation or Something Created by Humans

[eight bits]

8 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Wrong.

https://dermotturing.com/2019/07/30/fake-quotes/

It's a movie quote not from the man himself.

You have to be careful saying somebody is wrong, even when dealing with a broken clock like the other poster. Will was correctly called out for not attributing the quote at all, and did remedy that. We all know, however, that Will regularly attributes quotes based on the sayings he finds in fiction - Jesus and other biblical characters as reimagined in the UB.

Ironically with Alan Turing in the picture (who with John von Neuman is often styled a "father of AI"), we're sort of in a ChatGPT "hallucination" situation here. The screenwriter may have made up the line, or maybe not.. Regardless it is a plausible thing for Turing to have said, or reused somebody else's having said it, or it being something attributed to him in good faith by a qualified but mistaken (or otherwise imperfect) earwitness.

At other times, the supposed difficulty of "proving a negative" is a mantra in these parts, and proving that Alan Turing didn't say a specific witty thing is especially fraught. I gave you a loving-cup "thanks" for researching it as far as you did, but I would rate it as "attributed to" rather than definitely not something Turing said.

Attributing quotes isn't easy. Imagine my shock to read our current representative of the SDA quoting the Holy Koran:

5 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

God says something and it happens.

(In the Koran, that's how Jesus has no human father, and yet Allah dodges a paternity suit - he's not Jesus's daddy, you see, he's just the one who contributed Jesus's Y chromosome). Welcome back, Read.

Quote

So we know it is indeed the word of God.

No we don't know any such thing. Neither do you, you're just confident about your opinion in the matter.

Quote

This language is throughout the Bible by different writers

It would be a waste of bandwidth to point out to you that this is a textbook example of circular reasoning, so I won't point that out to you.

[XenoFish]

@eight bits When you debunk enough stuff and a mod essentially forces you to back your claims, research becomes a habit. Then you back everything up till the same mod tell you to stop. 

Sure, Turing might have said it. Doesn't mean he did. The one thing the internet is is a liars haven. 

[Rlyeh]

7 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

God says something and it happens. So we know it is indeed the word of God. This language is throughout the Bible by different writers including David. 

And when it doesn't you still pretend it happened.

[Piney]

7 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

God says something and it happens. So we know it is indeed the word of God. This language is throughout the Bible by different writers including David. 

David supposedly wrote some psalms and nothing else, but since the book was actually composed much later it's doubtful. 

[Will Due]

24 minutes ago, Piney said:

David supposedly wrote some psalms and nothing else, but since the book was actually composed much later it's doubtful. 

 

Have you ever run into anything indicating that Akhenaten authored some of the Psalms?

 

 

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Have you ever run into anything indicating that Akhenaten authored some of the Psalms?

Nope and they were written way too late for him too. 

[Piney]

9 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Have you ever run into anything indicating that Akhenaten authored some of the Psalms?

I found 104 did borrow from his hymn to the sun but that looks like a borrowing from Ptolemaic Egypt long after his death. 

[Alchopwn]

11 hours ago, Guyver said:

To the Irish, whomever it was who invented whiskey had Divine Revelation.

Actually we can trace whiskey to the Beaker People settlement of Skara Brae in the Orkneys.  Their descendants still carry the genes for digesting the amyl alcohols found in whiskey today.  Other people should beware of whiskey.  I believe in Gaelic that Whiskey translates as the water of life.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Alchopwn

[Sojo]

16 hours ago, Sherapy said:

"In your perspective, is the concept of God better explained by divine revelation or as something created by humans?"

While this is an either/or choice, and I lean toward a concept of God that is really all encompassing with respect to the idea of E Pluribus Unum. I do think there is a "oneness" in God, but I think that oneness can be a shared experience for those who have progressed to be able to understand and realize it. In this respect, I think your question really boils down to whether the concept of God is legitimate because God divinely reveals himself, or the God concept was just created by humans all on their own.

It may not be so much that God reveals himself, as it is individuals experience and learn and develop until they reach the point of being able to discern spiritual truths that have always been there and available.

Some may see it as just a natural order of progression for everyone. I copied a post from this site a good while back from a poster named Artaxerxes. I did a search but evidently that person no longer is posting, at least under that name.

Here is the post:

The answer to life's most profound questions can be answered by an understanding of quantum physics and the holographic nature of the Universe.

We experience duality and separation in order for the soul to be imprinted with what it means and how it feels to be separate, unique, individual. We here in the physical universe can't begin to understand the powerful feelings of oneness and connectedness in the Spiritual Universe due to it's holographic nature. Because of those feelings of oneness and connectedness, as reported by so many near death experiencers, it may not be possible to develop a sense of "self" or separateness in Heaven. It may have be done here and the way the soul does it is by being imprinted with separation, over and over again and over and over again, enough to last for trillions of years. Duality means stuff like religion, politics, race, language, culture, wealth, looks, height and weight, color, dialects, gender, sexual orientation, etc. All the labels that we wear in life that make us feel separate, unique, individual.

As for physical suffering, it imprints on the soul the physical parameters of the body. What it means and how it feels to be inside a body. To inhabit a body. The difference between feeling warm and feeling hot is a matter of degree. Same with cold. Each touch, both positive and negative, like a bit of computer code, imprinting on the soul the physical parameters of the body. Stub your toe, hit your funny bone, scratch an itch, paper cuts, brush your hair or your teeth, eat a hot pepper, burns, touch your face, feel the wind against your skin, and it's sending little bits of code to the collective unconscious of what it feels like to be in a body.

Life's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and the soul learns holistically what it's supposed to learn whether we want it to or not. In much the same way that children learn how to talk or a baby duck imprints on it's mother after it hatches out of the egg. Holistically. We don't have to do jack squat.

Because of the holographic nature of the other side all knowledge, and information, on the other side is shared. What one knows everyone knows. We come here not to be assimilated like some kind of Borg, but exactly the opposite, to become unassimilated. To learn what it means to be separate.

The death of someone we love is the ultimate lesson in separation. Nothing else comes close. Not divorce, not friends moving away, nothing imprints on the soul what it means to be separate quite like losing someone you love. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. Enough to last for eternity.

We may never be allowed to know absolutely for certain that there is life after death because if we knew absolutely 100% for certain that one day we were going to be reunited forever with the loved ones we've lost, death would lose a little bit of it's sting and power over us.

Everything happens for a reason, even the bad stuff. But keep in mind, compared to eternity, our lives here are like the blink of eye. We think it's a long time while we are here, but after we cross back over it will seem like no time at all has gone by, and we'll view this life like it was a dream or movie, not quite real. This ain't the main show, it's only a very temporary school that we come to for a very short while and then we are allowed back into the Spiritual Universe. Everyone becomes instantly enlightened upon entering the light. It's one of the benefits of those feelings of oneness and connectedness, the holographic nature of the Spiritual Universe.

:Anyway, I just thought I'd throw this in the mix.

Sojo

[Piney]

45 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Actually we can trace whiskey to the Beaker People settlement of Skara Brae in the Orkneys.  Their descendants still carry the genes for digesting the amyl alcohols found in whiskey today.  Other people should beware of whiskey.  I believe in Gaelic that Whiskey translates as the water of life.

The Proto-PIE folk first started growing crops for booze. Not food, and the PIE speaking Bell Beaker from modern Ukraine to Ireland have the gene.

It does mean water of life in Gaelic, Usquebae (sic) but it might of been from the Roman "aqua vitae". 

[+joc]

I think it is interesting that no one worships Santa Clause...we all know Santa Claus.   But regardless of what civilization, there is a belief in some form of Deity.  

So, I think there is something else going on besides a mere Human construct.  I  think more along the lines of a Human Re-Construct.  Reconstructing the stories of old of the Ancient Gods.  It really isn't an idea that was constructed by some people...that might be considered a Human Construct.  But for a belief system of deities to be constructed by ALL Humans...?

The only reason we have a debate going on about Extraterrestrials being here is because we have a knowledge of the Cosmos that allows for that possibility.  I know the Ancient Astronaut theories are not very popular but I am more inclined to think along the lines of Extraterrestrials who changed the evolutionary path of some primates.  It isn't something I 'believe'.  There are things we know and things we don't know...so this is one of the things we don't know, but I suspect there is an outside source that influenced the Concept of God in humans.

[Piney]

15 minutes ago, joc said:

The only reason we have a debate going on about Extraterrestrials being here is because we have a knowledge of the Cosmos that allows for that possibility.  I know the Ancient Astronaut theories are not very popular but I am more inclined to think along the lines of Extraterrestrials who changed the evolutionary path of some primates.  It isn't something I 'believe'.  There are things we know and things we don't know...so this is one of the things we don't know, but I suspect there is an outside source that influenced the Concept of God in humans.

Nope, just another step into complexity. People understood the laws of nature and assumed a "lawgiver". Most people in a biological science still do. 

The irony is "primitive" people were more mechanically inclined and had better systemizing skills. As life got easier, we needed to use our problem solving skills less. Which is one of the reasons why people believe complete bull****. 

[+joc]

9 minutes ago, Piney said:

Nope, just another step into complexity. People understood the laws of nature and assumed a "lawgiver". Most people in a biological science still do. 

The irony is "primitive" people were more mechanically inclined and had better systemizing skills. As life got easier, we needed to use our problem solving skills less. Which is one of the reasons why people believe complete bull****. 

What about the whole 'sacrifice' thing?  So many cultures seem to have developed a sacrificial element to their 'deity worship'.

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, joc said:

What about the whole 'sacrifice' thing?  So many cultures seem to have developed a sacrificial element to their 'deity worship'.

"Give back some of what you you take for thanks".

Not all sacrifices are human or animal and even my people offered the first deer killed in the fall to a bonfire during Gamwing. 

[Antigonos]

17 minutes ago, joc said:

What about the whole 'sacrifice' thing?  So many cultures seem to have developed a sacrificial element to their 'deity worship'.

Historically Mankind’s desire to sacrifice its own as well as animals is not limited to deity worship alone. When a ruler died in Mesopotamia their retainers were killed  and buried alongside them to serve them in the afterlife. This Mesopotamian custom is something seen in the First Dynasty of Egypt as well. One ruler even had a lion buried with him, presumably because he so enjoyed hunted them in life that he wanted to ensure he could continue to do so after his death. 
 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Antigonos

[Crazy Horse]

22 hours ago, Sherapy said:

"In your perspective, is the concept of God better explained by divine revelation or as something created by humans?"

 

GOD is above any concept, and any perspective.

How would one describe Infinite Energetic Potential?

What we see and know about this Universe, (in my opinion) all sprang forth from THAT, but, THAT, in and of it SELF, is beyond any concept.

 

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

How would one describe Infinite Energetic Potential?

Apparently the word Love is how you do that.

[+Hammerclaw]

4 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

GOD is above any concept, and any perspective.

How would one describe Infinite Energetic Potential?

What we see and know about this Universe, (in my opinion) all sprang forth from THAT, but, THAT, in and of it SELF, is beyond any concept.

 

Nah, even the average Bullsh!t artist can do better than that spiel. It's funny how God is above any concept, any perspective, yet guys like you talk about him like he's your Dutch uncle.

[Crazy Horse]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Apparently the word Love is how you do that.

If GOD is Singular in Nature, and yet we feel that we live in a fractured, desolate world, then its love, and only love that can heal this life.

Therefore, GOD must be Love.

One of the Hindu pathways to Realising Self is through a devotional love, of GOD, and therefore a love of humanity and life in general.

Therefore, GOD must be Love.

[Crazy Horse]

9 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Nah, even the average Bullsh!t artist can do better than that spiel. It's funny how God is above any concept, any perspective, yet guys like you talk about him like he's your Dutch uncle.

Well lets put it this way..

The Kingdom of Heaven is within, only, to even get anyplace near those Purley Gates, one has to change from a beast, to an Angel. And there are spiritual practices that shall help one to slowly awaken to Self. And these sadhanas are there for the taking, by anyone!

Anyway, once one arrives to this Kingdom, one has to let go of all concepts and notions etc, to re-Enter, and Abide. 

So yeah, we have to talk things through and then shut-up.. 

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Well lets put it this way..

The Kingdom of Heaven is within, only, to even get anyplace near those Purley Gates, one has to change from a beast, to an Angel. And there are spiritual practices that shall help one to slowly awaken to Self. And these sadhanas are there for the taking, by anyone!

Anyway, once one arrives to this Kingdom, one has to let go of all concepts and notions etc, to re-Enter, and Abide. 

So yeah, we have to talk things through and then shut-up.. 

You, maybe. Sounds more like you bought a pig in a poke off of Wish.com.

[jmccr8]

16 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

If GOD is Singular in Nature, and yet we feel that we live in a fractured, desolate world, then its love, and only love that can heal this life.

Therefore, GOD must be Love.

One of the Hindu pathways to Realising Self is through a devotional love, of GOD, and therefore a love of humanity and life in general.

Therefore, GOD must be Love.

Hi Crazy Horse

Maybe the world you live in is fractured and desolute which would be your partiicular pov. The world I live in I could/would not describe in that manner, sure there are difficult days but overall it is a pretty good life.

[XenoFish]

20 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

If GOD is Singular in Nature, and yet we feel that we live in a fractured, desolate world, then its love, and only love that can heal this life.

Therefore, GOD must be Love.

One of the Hindu pathways to Realising Self is through a devotional love, of GOD, and therefore a love of humanity and life in general.

Therefore, GOD must be Love.

So you're just making stuff up. 

[XenoFish]

12 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Well lets put it this way..

The Kingdom of Heaven is within, only, to even get anyplace near those Purley Gates, one has to change from a beast, to an Angel. And there are spiritual practices that shall help one to slowly awaken to Self. And these sadhanas are there for the taking, by anyone!

Anyway, once one arrives to this Kingdom, one has to let go of all concepts and notions etc, to re-Enter, and Abide. 

So yeah, we have to talk things through and then shut-up.. 

I've been myself my entire life. The rest is just mystic mumbo-jumbo.

[lightly]

  Piney thinks modern man is dimmer witted than ‘primitive’ man…due to lack of need in a less Uncertain world..  makes sense to me.   I was thinking as soon as man developed Thinking and Imagination …gods & religions were born.?     Later , (developing) Reason & Understanding/(knowledge) accompanied the birth of sciences. ?   Both came about for the same reasons,  as attempts to interpret and understand Reality. ?      Even philosophy began as an attempt to understand and explain the nature of Nature/Reality.    (I think it devolved into endless subjective ideas about the mind of man?)

Edited December 4, 2023 by lightly