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Russian schoolgirl shoots classmates before killing herself


Eldorado

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A Russian schoolgirl shot several of her classmates, killing one person and wounding five others before killing herself, state news agencies and authorities have said.

The shooting happened at a school in Bryansk, a city in a region of the same name that borders Ukraine, Russia’s Investigative Committee said.

One of the people wounded was in a serious condition, Russian state news agency RIA Novosti said.

PA Media report at MSN

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2 minutes ago, pellinore said:

It's going to happen everywhere where people, especially children, have access to guns.

Guns are inanimate objects and they do not kill on their own, people that use them kill. You can remove every gun ever manufactured and people will still find ways to kill. 

Just look to the UK which has restricted gun access and yet knife crimes are rising at an alarming rate.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49923129

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47 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

Guns are inanimate objects and they do not kill on their own, people that use them kill. You can remove every gun ever manufactured and people will still find ways to kill. 

Just look to the UK which has restricted gun access and yet knife crimes are rising at an alarming rate.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49923129

I agree. Knife crime in the UK is at horrendous levels. I could have said "access to weapons", but this post was about guns. (I think we can all agree that guns are more lethal than knifes though- modern armies don't arm themselves with machetes).

 

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1 hour ago, pellinore said:

I agree. Knife crime in the UK is at horrendous levels. I could have said "access to weapons", but this post was about guns. (I think we can all agree that guns are more lethal than knifes though- modern armies don't arm themselves with machetes).

 

One of the problems about gun control is that the U.S. government knows that if all purchases of guns by civilians were to be made illegal it would leave the arms manufacturers out of business because the U.S. military wouldn't be a big enough market to carry the manufacturers through times that the government isn't purchasing weapons. The U.S. is already heavily reliant on foreign manufacturers for their ammo supply namely China and Russia.

https://defensenews.com/congress/budget/2022/06/08/the-us-is-heavily-reliant-on-china-and-russia-for-its-ammo-supply-chain-congress-wants-to-fix-that/

All the rhetoric about assault weapon bans in the U.S. are for political show and is to be consumed by the anti-gun crowd. In the U.S. blunt force trauma kills more people than long guns.  Handguns are another story and most of the deaths are gang related to begin with and if you ban handguns the criminal element will still have theirs and a large black market will arise that would probably dwarf illegal alcohol during prohibition. 

There is already a large market in the U.S. for untraceable handguns that come from other countries. You'll never stop them.

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5 hours ago, pellinore said:

It's going to happen everywhere where people, especially children, have access to guns.

Why?  You seem to be making the argument that access to guns makes it somehow inevitable that people will use them to kill each other.  Rather than that being a "gun problem" don't you think perhaps it's more of a problem with our culture becoming more violent and lawless?  BTW, the kid used a pump-action shotgun.  

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2 hours ago, and-then said:

Why?  You seem to be making the argument that access to guns makes it somehow inevitable that people will use them to kill each other.  Rather than that being a "gun problem" don't you think perhaps it's more of a problem with our culture becoming more violent and lawless?  BTW, the kid used a pump-action shotgun.  

I think the US shows that it is probably true that access to guns makes it likely people will shoot each other. If you told two classes of kids they shouldn't scroll through their phones while in lectures, and made one group hand their phones in but let the other group have their mobiles on them, which group do you think would be more likely to scroll through their phones in contravention to your instructions?

 

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1 hour ago, pellinore said:

and made one group hand their phones in

Okay, I'll play.  How would you go about "making" roughly 60+ million gun owners, "hand them in"?  Also, with the total lack of border control now, how would you stop people from simply buying what they want on the black market?  The short answer is that it can't be done, and people would find guns just like they find drugs.  We're talking about 350 million guns in private hands and that's a conservative estimate.

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7 minutes ago, and-then said:

Okay, I'll play.  How would you go about "making" roughly 60+ million gun owners, "hand them in"?  Also, with the total lack of border control now, how would you stop people from simply buying what they want on the black market?  The short answer is that it can't be done, and people would find guns just like they find drugs.  We're talking about 350 million guns in private hands and that's a conservative estimate.

Who knows? Who cares? I'm just making the point that if you allow people access to things, they will use them. If you tell school kids fast food is bad for them and then allow McDonalds to open a franchise in their canteen, they will use it.

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33 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Who knows? Who cares? I'm just making the point that if you allow people access to things, they will use them. If you tell school kids fast food is bad for them and then allow McDonalds to open a franchise in their canteen, they will use it.

And some will walk ten miles in the snow, uphill both ways, in the dark to get a Miccy D's.

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9 minutes ago, Michelle said:

And some will walk ten miles in the snow, uphill both ways, in the dark to get a Miccy D's.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Are you saying some people will walk past a McDs in their school to go to one far away? Why would they do that?

Edited by pellinore
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1 minute ago, pellinore said:

I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

If someone wants something bad enough they will go to whatever extreme they have to to get it. It wouldn't have to be convenient.

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1 hour ago, pellinore said:

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Are you saying some people will walk past a McDs in their school to go to one far away? Why would they do that?

The point is that people who want guns will GET guns.  You also didn't comment on the whole - "turn them in" nonsense.  It isn't practical and would cost far more lives than the numbers who die as a result of mentally ill people resorting to using a gun.  This meme sums it up pretty well:NICKCAGEGUNMEME.jpg.1813c972b4f8ce841db0c19c00d97822.jpg

;) 

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4 hours ago, and-then said:

The point is that people who want guns will GET guns.  You also didn't comment on the whole - "turn them in" nonsense.  It isn't practical and would cost far more lives than the numbers who die as a result of mentally ill people resorting to using a gun.  This meme sums it up pretty well:NICKCAGEGUNMEME.jpg.1813c972b4f8ce841db0c19c00d97822.jpg

;) 

It is comparing too quite different things.

Pregnancy occurs naturally to all societies all around the world. Even the poorest person on the smallest island can get pregnant. It is vital for human survival. Are guns naturally occurring, and vital for human survival?

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22 hours ago, pellinore said:

I agree. Knife crime in the UK is at horrendous levels. I could have said "access to weapons", but this post was about guns. (I think we can all agree that guns are more lethal than knifes though- modern armies don't arm themselves with machetes).

I dont believe in banning access to guns and think that in the UK pistols and assault rifles should all be legal.

However, guns have not kept up with the progress of technology. I think it should be made law that all guns (except those in military and police use) must have electronic control built into them. Those controls only allow 2 rounds to be fired when the gun is in a zone designated as `non-hunting land`. If they are fired elsewhere the gun locks after the 2 rounds, and they have to log into an account on a state security controlled website giving the reasons why it was used, and requesting the gun should be unlocked, which won`t happy until 24 hours later. It would also require a mandatory visit by the police.

That allows people to have the gun of their choice, to be able to only fire off 2 rounds in a non-hunting area, and should that means someone goes crazy they are only murdering two other people at most, but most likely one person and then themselves. It allows self-defence and hunting.

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1 hour ago, Electric Scooter said:

I dont believe in banning access to guns and think that in the UK pistols and assault rifles should all be legal.

Why?

What possible reason could anyone have for wanting a pistol (other than for sporting purposes) or an assault rifle.  Except to kill people with.

It's like saying everyone should be allowed to own a nuclear missile.

Humans have a very unhealthy and juvenile obsession with wanting weapons.  I guess it's something to do with the size of their reproductive organs?   You never see dolphins wanting guns ;) 

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11 minutes ago, Essan said:

Why?

What possible reason could anyone have for wanting a pistol (other than for sporting purposes) or an assault rifle.  Except to kill people with.

It's like saying everyone should be allowed to own a nuclear missile.

Humans have a very unhealthy and juvenile obsession with wanting weapons.  I guess it's something to do with the size of their reproductive organs?   You never see dolphins wanting guns ;) 

It is not our place to limit the freedom of others when there is no need too.

Like I said, electronically lock them so in towns and cities they can only fire off two rounds for self defence. And should anyone snap then with two bullets they aren`t doing anymore damage that someone with a machete.

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4 hours ago, Electric Scooter said:

It is not our place to limit the freedom of others when there is no need too.

Like I said, electronically lock them so in towns and cities they can only fire off two rounds for self defence. And should anyone snap then with two bullets they aren`t doing anymore damage that someone with a machete.

Have you invented this kind of control then?

Also, let's just check if that would solve the issue of gun violence.

@and-then Would you be happy with a system where the government can control how many rounds you can fire?

Edited by Setton
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4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

We don't need to ban guns, we just need to tax ammunition heavily.

Can't tax ammunition heavily, actually it could be argued that ammunition can't be taxed at all.

The Supreme Court has already ruled that ammunition, among other gun related items, are protected by the second amendment.

It was also ruled by the Supreme Court that a state can not charge for the enjoyment of a right granted in the constitution.

A heavy tax on ammunition like you are suggesting would quickly be struck down as unconstitutional and might lead to firearms and ammunition to not be taxed at all.

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4 hours ago, Electric Scooter said:

Like I said, electronically lock them so in towns and cities they can only fire off two rounds for self defence. And should anyone snap then with two bullets they aren`t doing anymore damage that someone with a machete.

What is to stop a person from removing the electronic lock, guns are designed to be disassembled so they can be cleaned.  Also what happens in the situation a person is attacked by three people or if two shots weren't enough to stop one or two attackers, people have been known to take multiple rounds and keep going easily.  Guess you are just going to ignore that every single attempt at electronic security on firearms has failed horribly.

Lastly what is to stop a person from making their own gun.  A person can buy an aluminum billet of 7075 aluminum, which is what is used in AR-15 upper and lower receivers, for about $65.  A milling machine depending on how good a person wants to go will cost hundreds to a few thousand dollars to buy.  The design and dimensions of the AR lower and upper receivers are all over the place.  What is to stop a person from setting up their own AR production line and making guns without an electronic lock or any paper trail, a ghost gun.  The black market would quickly be flooded with people setting up their own production lines and cranking out AR style rifles like mad or are you going to ban billets of metal, aluminum 7075 doesn't need to be used, and Banning milling machines also.  

Other style of guns can just as easily, or in some cases easier, can be made.  A guy put the designs for a fully automatic SMG online that can be built only with parts and tools acquired from any hardware store.  It required no real building experience and while I can't remember the price it was shockingly and stupidly cheap.  People have built these and they do function.

Ultimately your idea would never work.

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7 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

Can't tax ammunition heavily, actually it could be argued that ammunition can't be taxed at all.

The Supreme Court has already ruled that ammunition, among other gun related items, are protected by the second amendment.

It was also ruled by the Supreme Court that a state can not charge for the enjoyment of a right granted in the constitution.

A heavy tax on ammunition like you are suggesting would quickly be struck down as unconstitutional and might lead to firearms and ammunition to not be taxed at all.

That would make an interesting test case.  The US government has the right to tax products under law, and the right to tax hazardous products at a higher rate if they deem necessary.  I doubt even the Supreme Court would fiddle with their own paychecks that irresponsibly. 

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The research shows that having legal guns doesn`t increase the number of criminals, but does increase the number of deaths they cause before an armed police officer gets there and terminates them. When guns are illegal the number of criminals is the same but they are less successful at mass killings because they are forced to us knifes etc.

Funnily the research shows that more guns, as in a gun for everyone, reduces the number of deaths from criminals. Why? Well its because people get the scumbag shot dead quickly. So the solution is MORE GUNS!

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40 minutes ago, Electric Scooter said:

Funnily the research shows that more guns, as in a gun for everyone, reduces the number of deaths from criminals.

Source.

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3 minutes ago, Setton said:

Source.

More Guns Mean More Violent Crime--or Less? A Researcher Aims at Scientific American | Scientific American

Melinda Wenner Moyer’s article “Journey to Gunland” (October 2017) is very biased and ignores virtually all of the literature on right-to-carry laws and gun ownership since 1998. About two thirds of the peer-reviewed, published literature shows concealed carry laws help reduce crime. I even provided Moyer with those published papers, but she doesn’t provide a single reference to or quote from them. Moyer appears completely unaware any of my research after 1998, making no mention of the 2nd and 3rd editions of More Guns, Less Crime (University of Chicago Press, 2000, 2010).

Yeehar!

Edited by Electric Scooter
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